Effects - DOC: is it the closest to LSD?

[Niteflights]

Having read most of the available references to DOC it seems the concensus is that it is the closest RC to LSD. A least it is described as having virtually no body load which is something that has kept swim off other RCs for some time. This is the only one I have seen a good percentage of people actually prefer to acid.

What is the expert concensus here? Is DOC very similar to LSD? I read a most interesting study claiming that LSD had a nearly identical neuroelectrical signature to DOC.

Curious George

[flashy]

DOC is not very similar to LSD (my opinion) DO* are generally not very similar, only the visuals are.

Seek for ETH-LAD

[Hyperspaceblastoff]

i thnk DOB is very similar to LSD

[tryptamaster]

swim has done both chemicals and belives doX to be radically different from lsd, it does acid injustice to even compare te two.

[lostmente]

swim has noted that when people know its DOx they think poorly of it in comparison to LSD. When they believe the DOx is LSD, its beyond awesome.

Barring that, ppl who accept that LSD is just another synthetic...find DOx to be quite a contender

[Songcycle67]

What is all this excitement over ETH-LAD? I bet a billion hamburgers that no one but cooks and their close friends have access to this, if anyone. It's not easy to produce, it requires LSD as a precursor and it degrades in subzero temperatures and total darkness in a matter of months. Unblottable due to degradation (and blotter seems to be where this is rumored to be "found"), does not degrade into LSD--but water, unlike other analogues such as ALD-52 which make them worth the trouble. Geltabs and other mediums would be quite useless in shielding appropriately.

Though I could be wrong, seeing as how this chemical is fundamentally the same as LSD but a bit stronger (A BIT), I don't think that it would be worthwhile to produce in mass quantities.

Anyway, DOC is one of shulgin's magical half-dozen if I'm not mistaken and it seems to be the most visual. Probably more like mescaline than LSD due to the nature of the DO*'s.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good points, wrong post...we have an ETH-LAD thread

[Panthers007]

Back in the 60's there were side-by-side tests of the different psychedelics: LSD25, psilocybin, and mescaline.. Very few people could tell the difference while at the full effects. Of course as psilocybin wears off in 5 or 6 hours, it becomes clear. But even so-called "sophisticated" users were right and wrong at the same frequency. That says something, but I'm not caring to say what.

[Samadhi]

While swim will stick with his motto of nothing compares to LSD, he must honor the notion that some think that DOx chemicals are in the same ballpark.

DOC is a unique chemical, it offers the body and mental raciness of an amphetamine with the side of being an agonist the 5ht receptors that LSD shares. Some think that it is "smoother" than all the DOx chemicals and has less of the amphetamine edge that DOB and DOI may carry in a user, but swim finds that it is almost the same as the two above (minus some things like dosage, duration and some physical effects)

LSD is possibly the most amazing, unique and sought-after (at least to swim) chemical there is. The body feels an energy, but not a "stimulation" persay, the mental focus is directed and can be honed easier than the substituted amphetamine (DOx) family. The visuals can stretch further and much harder than DOC due to LSD's knack of not overstimulating swim.

Swim feels that while on LSD, the universe is in its right place and the world is his for a breif few hours, DOC is mere eye-candy and a body rush in comparison to LSD.

but please, keep in mind that this is all opinion.

[snapper]

SWIM can tell the difference from mescaline, LSD and psilocybin due to side effects and duration. Mescaline gives SWIM euphoria reminiscent of MDMA/methylone (the other two do not make SWIM more upbeat), mushrooms last less time and have for SWIM very distinct hallucination patterns, and LSD is always very serious/introspective for SWIM and has some visual/ audio effects no other hahallucinogens have offered. Then again, maybe since SWIM has used lots of psychedelics, SWIM has learned to pick upon subtle differences and subjects with less experience would overlook. SWIM of course could also be proven wrong in a blinded study.
SWIM thinks 2CE is the closest of the phens to LSD, but still LSD is unique (though not for SWIM better) in its effects.2CE offers that same harsh introspection in common with LSD which many other hallucinogens lack for SWIM.

[ljfe]

DOx made SWIM get terrible jaw tension and feel like a tripped out zombie who is experiencing what health class describes as acid. They should have a whole lesson about getting bad paper.

[Songcycle67]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Back in the 60's there were side-by-side tests of the different psychedelics: LSD25, psilocybin, and mescaline.. Very few people could tell the difference while at the full effects. Of course as psilocybin wears off in 5 or 6 hours, it becomes clear. But even so-called "sophisticated" users were right and wrong at the same frequency. That says something, but I'm not caring to say what.

Do you know if they tested highly experienced individuals?

If so I'd love to read more about this!

[Panthers007]

All they said were "sophisticated" in the context that they had used psychedelics on numerous occasions. And considered themselves as adept. So Beelzebub knows what that really means. Likely about the same as it would today: A kid who took little, purple pills and sucked on some sugar-cubes before. But this was when it was legal and the DOx series hadn't reared it's head - aside from very limited experiments with DOM (STP).

[lostmente]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Back in the 60's there were side-by-side tests of the different psychedelics: LSD25, psilocybin, and mescaline.. Very few people could tell the difference while at the full effects. Of course as psilocybin wears off in 5 or 6 hours, it becomes clear. But even so-called "sophisticated" users were right and wrong at the same frequency. That says something, but I'm not caring to say what.

hehehe says something that swim might say about what swim observed.

anyone remember colour therapy? that if you have different coloured waters that they actually taste different, feel different and ARE different...but its just the colour

lostmente added 3 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

swim hopes that people are not too wound up in the generation gap principle....and acknowledge that most of swiy thinking is a reflection of what can be recognized in current civilization. Current civilization would not exist as it is today without the initial thought patterns laid down by the giants of the past

[fatal]

DOC for president. who cares anyways? lying is wrong but honestly if you cant hang with 1-2mg of DOC in blotters you definitely cant hang with 500mics of high purity LSD. this shits just not for everyone see... thats why its illegal or something

[allyourbase]

DOC is a completely different deity altogether. (in swims experience) their only shared characteristic is that they are wholly unique in their actions. in swims experience DOC is an archetype drug the way LSD and mescaline are. it deserves, in and of its own right, the respect not to be lumped in with other drugs, whatever their positive qualities. =)

[foxydoe]

I doubt any phenylethylamine is anything like acid, try mushrooms they have the tryptamine feel you'll never get from DOC

[Samadhi]

Originally Posted by foxydoe

I doubt any phenylethylamine is anything like acid, try mushrooms they have the tryptamine feel you'll never get from DOC

opinion is only relative in whole to the owner of said opinion. Some think that DOC is very akin to LSD and some do not, this is not to say that they are wrong, they just have a different opinion.

and we aren't telling anyone to use drugs now are we?

[Niteflights]

NASA and many Havard alumni were using LSD for problem solving (Frick, Bill Gates etc). I wonder if DOC would lend itself to this type of application since it is an amphetamine as well.

Can anyone function on a high level on a low dose of DOC?

[RaverHippie]

Originally Posted by Niteflights

Can anyone function on a high level on a low dose of DOC?

My raver friend went to class on a low dose of a DO* chemical and functioned at a higher rate than sober. The class was an interactive environment where everyone was brainstorming and editing rough drafts of a creative essay, not the normal classroom environment so things were much easier to deal with.

It would be interesting to test the OP's point since my raver friend can't even say for sure if he's had either of the chemicals in question due to blotters being uncertain.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM sent me this:

DOC, DOB...like acid? not at all. Closer to ecstasy or a small dose of mescaline with a massive amount of speed thrown in.

DOC and DOB hang around in the body for well over 24 hours--the rule of thumb for things like this, is the longer it lingers in the body, the less the body is equipped to deal with it, the more harmful it can be.

If SWIM were to recommend any drug in the DOx classification, it would be DOM.

It is the most potent, the longest lasting, and it has features of all the drugs in the DOx family. DOM (STP) was synthesized by Owsley, at terribly high doses unfortunately.

Basically all these drugs are like drinking a shitload of coffee or amphetamines until you start seeing brighter colors and reality/space/time distortion.

I once e-mailed Owsley about the best way to take it and he said "don't." Obviously some underlying issues there. So I took about 10mg and I was up for 48 hours straight. It was neat at first, but it isn't very psychedelic...about what you get from DOB or DOC.



well beyond apples and oranges. None of these compounds are technically psychedelic.

[cra$h]

fellow swimmers of swim relate it to weak acid and speed. You'll be up all night but sleep the whole next day. Nothing compares to legit acid. Those who think that are trippin for all the wrong reasons.

[terrapinzflyer]

Originally Posted by Niteflights

Having read most of the available references to DOC it seems the concensus is that it is the closest RC to LSD.

Swims turtle has done a lot of lsd- it was his world for years, and to compare toe DO'x's just feels wrong. Not even close on so many levels...

the synthetic psilocycibins such as 4-acetoxy-dipt and 4 aco-dmt are closer in turtles opinion, but are really another beast entirely.

Really- as the old coke commercials said "ain't nuthin like the real thing baby"

Kinda like the fake meats some veg/vegans like - if you want to lie to yourself then sure- but if your honest with yourself its a whole different ballgame.

[Songcycle67]

Originally Posted by terrapinzflyer

Swims turtle has done a lot of lsd- it was his world for years, and to compare toe DO'x's just feels wrong. Not even close on so many levels...

the synthetic psilocycibins such as 4-acetoxy-dipt and 4 aco-dmt are closer in turtles opinion, but are really another beast entirely.

Really- as the old coke commercials said "ain't nuthin like the real thing baby"

Kinda like the fake meats some veg/vegans like - if you want to lie to yourself then sure- but if your honest with yourself its a whole ah,different ballgame.

SWIM sent me this:

Yeah, it's closer to mescaline, with very subtle subtle visuals...all those DOx compounds and 2-c compounds come from Shulgin trying to get a compound as exciting as its relative: mescaline. Drugs that have similar branches as Mescaline were all cooked up and reported on.

Shulgin and Owsley both despise the stuff from what I understand.

But, as I said, I've tried all the known DOx's and DOM just seemed to be the most "visual"--but only because you're sped out of your brains.

It's also important to note that none of the synthetics are well-accepted by the body...naturally occuring substances that the brain uses daily--DMT, Psilocybin, and LSD are all the right size and proper structure to produce a psychedelic experience.

Something that lasts days or weeks on end, and seems to never leave the body can be extremely biologically debilitating and even a touch "poisonous."


DOM is interesting, but it fails the biological test, it produces the most visuals of any of its relatives methinks, and it's basically just like taking a shit load of amphetamine (one of the alkyloids of mescaline, and therefore all of its cousins).

If one must take an RC, while it's still dangerous, I'd recommend a low dose experience on 2c-i. Still not metabolised properly in the body, does have significant side-effects the next day, but it is probably the closest I've ever had to LSD. Very small doses of the stuff will rocket one to the moon.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very detailed and informatively referenced

[Niteflights]

Shulgin and Owsley both despise the stuff from what I understand.

Songcycle thanks that was a very enlightening post. I am a little weary of Shulgin's opinions as he was very anti-ketamine, while being ready to ingest and publish formulas for a great number of very questionable substances. Ketamine was originally synthesized as a safer version of PCP (which it is). If this branch of research continues some very interesting and safe substances could emerge.

Grof is pro ketamine (used clinically) and Leary was very pro ketamine ranking it above LSD as capable of "activating the 8th circuit", the highest level of consciousness in his model.

I always wondered what Albert Hoffman's opinion was of the "Frankenstein molecule" does anyone know? It did throw Lilly for some bad loops but on the other hand he pioneered Dolphin intelligence research which is still extremely ahead of it's time.

Dr. Evgeny Krupitsky's research in Russia has documented ketamine's enormous therapeutic value, as has Jansen's research not to mention the article published in Nature documenting ketamine as being the most effective antidepressant ever discovered (eat your heart out mother nature).

I am not very familiar with Shulgin's perspectives as I haven't read his books entirely but I got the impression that a great deal of his TiHKAL/PiHKAL publications are centered on recreational rather than functional or productive use.

I wonder what Grof and Hoffman thought of DOC. I heard Grof (who commands a great deal of my respect) lecture on many of the RCs floating about. He is the pioneer of LSD research and it is unlikely he would dabble in substances that didn't have much value. He didn't cast a negative opinion on any of them. I like his attitude that they are all just tools.

A tool in the wrong hands is a weapon or a time bomb.

[Nemba]

Swim considers DOC different in terms of physical effects i.e. duration, vasoconstriction, more stimulating, but after a 18-24mg dose (too much... but not too too much... it took swim a long time to recover though) he is sure it's mental and visual potential are as good as LSD. Swim saw true hallucinations of water dripping off his ceiling and similar things, and EXTREME visuals of the posters on his walls opening into the walls like doors with different scenes behind each, everything overlayed with numbers representing the things (like whatever he was focusing on was made up of glowing shiny rainbow numbers which meant the dimensions and properties of the object at the points they were placed) and other ridiculous things as well as the single most religiously inspiring and violent yet peaceful night of his life. When he realised too late that he had taken way too much (after waiting for 3h and feeling nothing he had redosed, then again 1.5h later, 6-8mg each time as a friend who tested the same batch at 4mg said it was not so strong) he was already in such a serene state that he thought (in retrospect a bit silly but still) "Ah well, it's my own fault. If I die tonight at least I had fun" thinking that if he was unlucky he surely could have.