Addiction - When is it 'safe' for an addict to throw his GBL away?

[Kanthor]

SWIM has used GBL for about 4 months month. Most of the time 16/7 (so every day SWIM took 8hrs off). However SWIM went on vacation a few weeks ago, and used an awful lot of GBL 24/7 for a week. Suddenly the 8 hrs off was very hard to achieve, and SWIM slowly worked up to 6hrs break.

A week ago SWIM converted a bunch of GBL to GHB and only used GHB from there on, though GBL for sleep.
The last 2 days SWIM managed to break 'records' of hours off; first 9.5hrs without with the help of Phenibut+GABA combo, 2nd 10.5hrs off with help of 20mg Temazepam (only 2x20mg left).
Now SWIM is 9hrs without with no 'helpers'. And SWIM feels great and powerful enough to tackle this thing once and for all. Sure he has a tremor here and there, but is able to live with it.

SWIM doesn't feel the need to do any GHB, but is scared to throw everything away if the symptoms can get more severe.

How do withdrawal symptoms develop with GHB? Will they become more severe & severe as the hours/days go on, with a peak at say day 3?
Or will it become easier and easier to deal with?

SWIM will get a bunch of Valium+Ambien at the end of July, but he really doesn't want to wait on them if he can kick the habit right now & here. (SWIM doesn't plan on using them either if G gets kicked before arrival)

What would SWIY advise? Anybody is able to give SWIM some overview of the day's of G withdrawal?

[MrG]

According to reports the majority of withdrawal symptoms are gone within 2/3 days following cessation of chronic GBL use.

Within a week all symptoms have usually resolved themselves. Of course this is dependent on the level of chronic abuse and how long it has been maintained.

GHB can be used quite safely at pharmacological doses for sleep (2x4.5g) and has been proven to be non-addictive with no reported issues following sudden cessation after over 44months.

I'm not sure how that would affect somebody trying to come off a chronic habit, but considering that GHB has such a short half-life, I would imagine that a user would still be able to take it for sleep at night as long as they ceased using during the day.

The problem is that, using it for sleep every night, it can leave one with a little "nervous" energy the next morning. Somebody who suffers from free floating anxiety or panic attacks may not feel very comfortable with it. Seeing as most chronic abusers were using it in order to help with their social anxieties and related conditions, it may be a good idea to titrate to only using it for sleep and, once having done so, aim to then titrate that.

This means reducing the frequency of nights it is used for sleep, as opposed to altering the sleep doses, as each of the 4.5g doses is for 4 hours sleep.

Remember, whilst G is not a compulsive substance, those who decide to start using it to "get them through the day" will find that it is awfully good at masking, but not curing, the problems they already have.

Reputation Comments on this post:

A very good post that provides both useful information and sound advice

[Kanthor]

Thanks for your answer MrG.

That's what SWIM has been thinking. Right now he is 12hrs without and still feeling fine if not good . So SWIM is going to set this as a minimum amount of time of non-use. Then he'll add a hour per day on top of that till he reaches 21:00.
From there on SWIM will only do 3 doses; @ 21:00('fun' dose), 23:00(sleep dose), 02:30(sleep dose). And next week he'll drop the 'fun' dose for some weed/alc.
Once SWIM receives his Ambien he will use that to alter between GHB and Ambien for sleep, eventually tapering off to nothing.

" The only State that you can be in 24/7, non-stop, in every country & situation is being in a blissfull Sober State. "

SWIM his style is to go 1000% at everything he does. He will go 1000% for a wonderfull 24/7 Sober State.

Thanks.

[MrG]

TBH, once SWIY drops the "fun" dose, the GHB sleep is probably more beneficial than the Ambien sleep.

SWIM's never experienced any withdrawal issues himself, despite thorough experimentation, leading him to believe that difficult withdrawal problems are probably as a result of an extensively chronic habit that, the longer it is maintained, will be harder on the subject to cease.

Exacerbated, of course, by the same problems that led them to use chronically in the first place.


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edit: I just noticed you mention that SWIY might replace his "fun" dose with weed or alcohol, do not use alcohol if SWIY is then using G for sleep.

[Kanthor]

As per request SWIM will keep a Journal on my withdrawal progress. First he will give some background on his habit.

Habit started in March 2008. SWIM bought GBL with the intent to use it 'unlimited' for an undetermined amount of time. He thought it was harmless physically, and saw more positives to its use then negatives. He used it before, always buying 250/500ml bottles and using 12/7 till bottle was empty. This time was different and he bought 4.5 liters of GBL.

After about a week of 24/7 use, SWIM found out about the addictive aspect of GBL and its severe withdrawals. This caused him to feel down, however he still wanted to use the GBL. So he devised a plan to use it 12/6(7) for an undetermined amount of time. You can find this in earlier topics of Kanthor.

The 12/6 never happened, and became 12/7. The 12/7 became 14/7, and that became 16/7 within a month or so. He set the minimum amount of non-use at 6hours. He thinks about half of the time he used in April/May was 6hrs & the rest 8hrs.

SWIM kept strict journals of the amounts he used, and never did more then 1.7ml / 2hrs when at home. If he went outdoors or was with friends this could easily become 3ml/2hrs. Also the time off was skipped if friends stayed over or other special situations happened.

Then came June. He had a trip planned to Paris on the 10th of June. In the beginning of June use was 18/7. It still was quite easy to leave it for 6+hrs. But for Paris he had an amount of 150ml gbl for 6 days of travel and some benzo's. This is where things started to get out of control.

When SWIM got home he couldnt even leave the GBL for 4 hrs, or else he got hit by severe anxiety and shaking/sweating. He continued to use ~24/7 for a few days after that. And then slowly started to work his way up to 6hrs with 15 to 30min increments per day. Daily use was still in the 20ml+ range, and 'special occasions' upped this use to easily 25ml+.

SWIM lives in a student home and gets bothered alot by his housemates. It was very difficult to confront them if he had the WD effects. So he went to plan his days so that he could take his time off in the Night, so he didnt have to confront his roommates. He bought a nice MMORPG PC game, and this helped him to get to 8hrs non-use again. However he never could get passed this because he needed to sleep, and confront his housemates. Daily use was still at 15-20ml.

Now its Vacation time and SWIM was alone for a few days. He decided this was the time to start with decreasing the WD effects big time. He made a note and put this in front of his computer:
" Now is your chance to make a good start with Withdrawal. Be strong & act Disciplined. Use as little as needed, if anything at all. Do not screw up this time. Think positively & end result oriented. You will cheer in Victory later on. "

So SWIM was able to make a nice start in 3 days time, upping his non-use to 12.5hrs while being able to confront his housemates when not being on GBL. You can read this in the first post.
SWIM got lucky because he found out today that his housemate went on a vacation for a week, so now is Definately the time to finish this withdrawal once & for all.

I can go on and on about SWIM his experiences and methods, and ways to keep himself straight. But since yours & mine time is limited, I will keep it at this.

One thing SWIM wants to say is: You should not feel bad about being an addict to GHB. He finds it very comparable to Benzo's. Since Benzo's are #1 prescribed medicine with #1 amount of addicts, there is no shame in being one of them. It is very understandable to become one.

Kanthor added 10 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

SWIM accomplished a new 'record' of non-use today, at 13hrs. This was according to plan. He was able to nicely plan & enjoy his day. However at 11 hrs of non-use, he decided to try 30ml of alcohol to see what the effects would be. He was still having very sweaty hands, and figured maybe some alcohol could fix it.

How wrong was he. The 30ml alcohol made him feel very bad, to the point that he felt he needed GHB to remain conscious/not vomit.
However he managed to remain Strong and Powerful, and kept telling himself to do so. He reviewed his notes and plan: "Make sure to make Progress EVERY day". He remained strong and was able to reach the 13hrs of non-use, giving even more power & strength to his will/motivation/determination.

SWIM is ready for tomorrow, to tackle the 14hrs of non-use. He will not take any 'helpers' such as alcohol/benzo/phenibut etc as this clouds his thinking/actions/feelings.

As for the rest of today, SWIM will do 1.7ml / 2hrs. This will be about 7.5ml GBL and then some 5ml for sleep.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excellent, informative post. Well done.
	Very thorough and interesting report

[MrG]

Is there any chance that he might do the conversion from GBL to GHB?

It would, according to reports, be easier for him to be coming off GHB rather than GBL.

[Kanthor]

Yes since a week SWIM has been using primarily GHB, only 2.5ml GBL for sleep. Since GHB varies in strength, he used GBL to indicate how much he used.

[MrG]

Is he unaware of the strength of his GHB?

It is normally 1g=5ml but if he didn't make it then he'd not know for sure. It really would be better for him to be using 4.5g of GHB twice a night to sleep instead of the GBL.

[Kanthor]

SWIM made the GHB himself. He used 125ml GBL to create 325ml GHB. So 1ml of his GHB ~.4gbl . However when he uses 5ml of GHB the effects are clearly less then 1.8ml GBL.
This leads him to believe that GHB has a milder effect. It also takes longer to come up, and seems to last less long.

From now on SWIM will use GHB for his sleep aswell. 1ml GBL is 1.6gram of GHB right? So he should dose about 7ml of his GHB for sleep. This seems to be a large dose for SWIM, as he is used to max 5.5ml GHB (even for sleep). Perhaps that is the reason why SWIM cant get more then 3hrs of sleep (if he's lucky)?

[MrG]

You'll need to read through some of the other threads and research concerning Xyrem with regards to the use of GHB for sleep.

The pharmacological dose is 1 x 4.5g of GHB taken when going to bed. This will induce about 4 hours of quality sleep. Upon waking the patient takes another 4.5g dose to induce a second 4 hours. Again, no alcohol should have been consumed during the evening.

Can you clarify SWIY's GBL to GHB procedure because it isn't clear what dilution he has.

[Kanthor]

SWIM used 65gram NaOH , 125ml GBL and 200ml water for the synthesis. This yielded about 325ml of GHB, so he figured 125 GBL in 325ml solution is .385GBL/1solution. Is this thinking wrong?

SWIM will cease the use of alcohol after the experience of today.

Your help and attention is much appreciated MrG.

[Lobsang]

According to reports the majority of withdrawal symptoms are gone within 2/3 days following cessation of chronic GBL use.

Within a week all symptoms have usually resolved themselves. Of course this is dependent on the level of chronic abuse and how long it has been maintained.

SWIM can verify this at least in SWIM. SWIM was taking GBL 24/7 for a long time. Like half a bottle of Renewtrient a day at least. When he stopped it was a bad withdrawl and it was about 3 days and within a week everything was pretty much normal.

[MrG]

Originally Posted by Kanthor

SWIM used 65gram NaOH , 125ml GBL and 200ml water for the synthesis. This yielded about 325ml of GHB, so he figured 125 GBL in 325ml solution is .385GBL/1solution. Is this thinking wrong?

Yes the thinking is wrong, it doesn't work like that and, in any case, the GHB solution SWIY has is not correctly diluted.

Ok, first things first, undiluted NaGHB is a solid at room temperature, so this means that SWIY certainly has dilute NaGHB but does not know what dilution. The figures supplied immediately tell me that the synthesis would have a yielded an end product that would have an excess H2O content.

He would do well to return his NaGHB to heat in order to boil off the excess water. He would need to heat it until it eventually reaches 150c, gently stirring all the time, this will allow the H2O to evaporate and will leave him with molten NaGHB which, if left to cool, would turn into a solid block.

In order to avoid this, he would need to pour it out, whilst still molten, onto a few, clean, baking trays or similar where it will cool and harden. It can then be scraped off and weighed.

The weight in grams can then be multiplied by 5 to find the amount in ml's of hot water to add to it in order to get the correct dilution of 1g=5ml

Once he has done this then he should be set to be able to correctly dose his GHB.

These threads will be of interest to him:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63195

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61045

[Kanthor]

Allright MrG SWIM will do that today. He's calling GHB Xyrem from now on, and seeing it as a sleep medicine. This will remove the association he had with GHB/GBL as being a drug that makes you high.

As far as WD goes today. SWIM is currently 13hrs without and still feeling fine. An old buddy of his just showed up to use some GBL in front of his eyes, and he had no problem whatsoever watching him do it. No cravings, or feelings that it'd be nice to do some aswell. Now he understand your statement that it's a non-compulsive drug. Also another housemate joined in, and he had no problem having a fun conversation with the 2 of em at once. He is glad with the progress he made so far, considering he did 3liter+ of GBL in the past couple of months.

SWIM his plan was to stay off Xyrem for 14 hours today, but he decided to do 10mg of diazepam (10 mins ago) and just go for his end goal of using Xyrem only 3 times / day (Fun dose before sleep and 2x sleep dose). Tomorrow he will do the same but then with a Phenibut+GABA combo (which is milder). The day after that he will do it without helpers.
SWIM will then be at a usage level that should not bring about fysical dependence.

SWIM received his valium & ambien today, a week earlier then anticipated. So he thinks this might be the time that 'it is safe to throw his GBL away' (the question of the topic). However he is still contemplating to keep a batch of Xyrem for sleep purpose and possibly alcohol replacement.

[MrG]

Again, one would question replacing one addiction with another.

Are all these benzo's and sleeping aids absolutely necessary?

If SWIM had to make choice from that lot it would be weed to chill and NaGHB for sleep.

[Lobsang]

If this SWIM had to make the choice he would get off all drugs that are used for anything but mind expansion and occasional recreation and get into a balanced lifestyle with nutrition, running, sex, yoga and all that stuff.

[Kanthor]

SWIM got very confused with having 30 10mg valium & 20 ambien pills. Therefor he flushed all pills except for 5 valium & 5 ambien for help with withdrawal (if needed).

SWIM absolutely agrees with Lobsang, swim's goal is to get off all drugs and be able to work on a good 24/7 sober state. He already started working out & eating good nutrition, because the G added 10kg to his weight. Swim tried yoga, but it didnt do it for him. He has been studying NLP for the last 3 weeks, and picked up Wing Chun martial arts. Both did him great. His study starts in 1.5 months time and he wants to be in a good condition before that time.

[Lobsang]

SWIM would just like to say from his perspectibe that GBL is a demon that can rob the soul without cause. It is the most vile substance he knows. Completely without merit as anything in the drug world. I does not work on any decent receptors in the brain giving neither insight of a decent high. It is lower than the piss from a dead monkey. When SWIM was addicted he really did not like it at all. It does not make you feel good. Just impaired. And when people are addicted or taking it no one seems to step back and say "What the fuck am I doing.?..I am drinking computor circut board solvent" That's all.

[Kanthor]

hehe Lobsang, SWIM doesnt quite agree with you there. GBL taught & showed him quite a few things. Also it has made him a much more open-minded person. And it made him mentally ready to go work 100% on his career, also his college will start in 1.5 months. Doing this requires a steady 24/7 emotional state of mind. That's why swim wants to get rid of GBL and other state altering drugs. Not so much because of the negative impact it had on his life.
Thinking something alone the lines of 'I am drinking computor circut board solvent' is somewhat unfair, as alcohol has it's uses aswell and that's perfectly fine.
Swim wonders what drugs work on 'decent receptors' ?

SWIM's confusion calmed down thankfully. He just stashed all his 'drugs' in a hard to reach place, with notes attached to it.. so that he has to go through a multi-step process to take any. (Not that SWIM is that big of a junky though lol, it sounds worse then it is).
From now on SWIM will be in only 2 states: Sober & Xyrem. To get rid of the Xyrem he will use Tapering instead of substitution with benzo's/pheni.

[Lobsang]

hehe Lobsang, SWIM doesnt quite agree with you there. GBL taught & showed him quite a few things. Also it has made him a much more open-minded person. And it made him mentally ready to go work 100% on his career,

Please explain how GBL did this. Whay specific experiences and insights did GBL give SWIy. Like actual experiences on GBL ?

[Kanthor]

Those experiences range from phobia to ways to handle conflict situations to sexual experiences (hehe ofc.). Doing things that before seemed impossible or awkward to do, now swim knows they can be done. It has brought him to places to trigged his inspiration and motivation, to a level that he wants to quit all drugs and work on a good career/CV. Swim doesnt feel bad about his addiction, feeling bad brings more bad. Swim has and is learning from his addiction, and uses that to work towards his desired future.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by Kanthor

Those experiences range from phobia to ways to handle conflict situations to sexual experiences (hehe ofc.). Doing things that before seemed impossible or awkward to do, now swim knows they can be done. It has brought him to places to trigged his inspiration and motivation, to a level that he wants to quit all drugs and work on a good career/CV. Swim doesnt feel bad about his addiction, feeling bad brings more bad. Swim has and is learning from his addiction, and uses that to work towards his desired future.

Well OK. But what I mean is specifically and exactly. What exact experiences taught SWIy this. OK so GBL can give you a hard on and make sex enhanced to a degree sometimes. Alright. But what specific other insights did SWIy get and can SWIy report the exact experience or revelation caused by GBL?

[Kanthor]

Yes SWIM could go into detail how it cured a phobia of his, how it helped him to learn how to stay in control in conflict situations, or how it allowed him to experiment with different types of communication, or what other doors it opened for him. But that's not the point of this topic, and is irrelevant personal information. Swim respects your hatred against GBL, and understand it. But your experience is not his experience. If you are really interested in his experience, please drop a PM.

[Lobsang]

But that's not the point of this topic, and is irrelevant personal information. Swim respects your hatred against GBL, and understand it. But your experience is not his experience. If you are really interested in his experience, please drop a PM.

I think you are reading things wrog SWIy. I was in no way trying to diminish SWIy's experience. I genuinely wanted to know what SWIy perceived and others to as well.

[Kanthor]

Day 6 of withdrawal is going according to plan. Swim has not used G for 14 hours right now, and will go for the 15 hours. He is still a little bit sweaty & shaky, but it seems to go better and better. SWIM also went shopping for the first time without G, and was able to act sort of the same way as if he were on G. Good progress, although he feels that it will take some time to fully get used to going outdoors without G.
Also he is finally feeling 'normal' tiredness again, and even was able to take 30min naps. He feels he would be able to do normal nights of sleep without Xyrem. However he will stay to his plan of going to the point of only using Xyrem for sleep. From there on he will try to sleep without. Sudden changes of your withdrawal plan have a bad influence on withdrawal, as experienced yesterday.