International - France asks Netherlands for help with their drug problem and policy

[Alfa]

July 8th 2008

A drugs-Forum report.

The French Minister of internal affairs has asked asked The Netherlands for help to solve the drug problems in the banlieues, the outskirts of large cities. Dutch Minister of internal affairs Ter Horst stated this to Dutch national television.

Ter Horst spoke to her French colleague Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie in the city of Cannes on Monday and agreed that The Netherlands and France will start to cooperate on the fight against drugs and will exchange knowledge about drug policies.


Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie

The French have lost control on the banlieues, where drug dealers rule. The French police hardly dares to enter the area's.

France has been the most critical country, against the Dutch drug policy, because of the separation of had and soft drugs in the Dutch drug policy. That disagreement is a thing of the past now. Dutch prime minister Balkenende and his French collegue Franois Fillon agreed last year that the countries will come to a more intensive cooperation on the fight against drugs.

Last week the WHO (World Health Organisation) released a rapport comparing drug use in 17 countries. Drug use in France is almost twice as high as in The Netherlands. The French drug policy is one of the toughest in Europe.

[Nature Boy]

Why are the French asking for help now? With the Christian Democrats in charge the only recommendations will be to crack down harder, something which could end up being disastrous.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

Why are the French asking for help now? With the Christian Democrats in charge the only recommendations will be to crack down harder, something which could end up being disastrous.

Spot on, news just came in that the Dutch have already advised them to implement the BIBOB permit system. What this does is let all companies in certain sectors apply for a permit. This is reviewed by a board, that inspects the financial situation of the company and a great number of other aspects, that may indicate criminal involvement. If a company is rated as likely to have criminal involvement, then the company is closed down. There is no burden of proof on the BIBOB board. The burden of proof is upon the company.

The BIBOB system is responsible for a great number of closures of coffeeshops, growshops, headshops, smartshops, cafe's, bars, sex clubs and much more.

[Lunar Loops]

So, this is not nearly as exciting a prospect as the headline might suggest to the casual observer?

As I stated in another thread, I can only see the Dutch becoming less tolerant in their attitude as the new United States of Europe takes shape. I can see there being little room for manouvre once all us Europeans subscribe to a common criminal justice policy. Am I being overly negative here?

[Benga]

spot on with the french Presidency of the Council of the European Union...
I read it as a strictly political move taking advantage of the current swing of Dutch politics. France has a larger drug issue than the Netherlands ? Well no more criticism of french policy based on the "Dutch model". Now the french government will have the justification of actively collaborating with the current Dutch perspective, which is turning repressive. And the Netherlands will be able to justify actions leading to european "normalisation" of policies and transnational collaboration... it's a winning situation for both sides, and will lead to more repression.

as for "banlieues", it's a very deep social mess indeed, that drug trade is only one aspect of. young banlieue offenders are only following economical ultraliberal ideals similar to those put forward by the current governement, only in a different context. They are indeed "working more to gain more", the latest Sarkozy punchline...

As for this pseudo collaboration, let's keep in mind that the only perspectives put forward by the Sarkozy governement are repressive ( changes in legislations towards minors, video surveillance, special police forces and equipement, databases for potential offenders etc). French suburbs are indeed hubs for all sorts of smuggled goods and illegal trades, cannabis and heroin trafficking, and in the past 10 years have also opened up to cocaine, which is bringing in a totally different financial dynamics...
The french governement would also need european specialists in quite a few other social issues than drug use regulation imo, starting with proper social organisation and real, concrete political perspectives rather than self-satisfied complacent hypocrisy and scapegoating...

b

[MountainDeW]

I live in the U.S., so I am pretty naive to the sutuation in France. Are banlieues like suburbs or is it different in some aspect? Also, I have seen reports about a large muslim minority causing trouble in France. Is the populous of these banlieues largely muslim or French? Who controls the gangs?

[Bajeda]

The situation in France is practically the reverse of the US in that the inner city is kept nice and the 'slum' areas with tall cheap housing are where the suburbs would be in the US. The population is mixed ethnicity (though maybe some areas have more of a particular presence than others) but entirely poor and repressed. Animosity between the denizens of these abodes and the law enforcement establishment is quite prevalent to say the least. Benga would certainly know more than I on this subject, so I'll let him or someone else with personal experience fill ya in.

Reputation Comments on this post:

appreciate your sharing of information

[Psych0naut]

The large muslim minority in France is made up of North-African(Algerian and Morrocan) immigrants(the first generation) and their children, who have been born in France(the second generation), and these days, their grandchildren, also born in France(the third generation). While the majority of the first generation of these immigrants have been living in harmony with the French, some of the second generation and especially third generation of these immigrants are sometimes oppressed, which results in escalations when they express their anger of feeling oppressed. A lot of them are without jobs, poor and have little future. A year or so ago, big riots happened in Paris, North-African youths who we're lighting cars on fire and fighting against the police. The reason for the riots was that two North-African youths we're electrocuted when they tried to hide in a powerhouse, hiding from the police. That accident was the catalyst for venting the apparent anger that was cropping up. A simmilar case happened several months later, in which case the death of two North-African youths who got killed when they had a motorcycle accident while fleeing from the police. This says enough about the suppresed anger living amongst the North-African immigrants, and their unhappieness with their living circumstances.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for the details

[Benga]

the french situation is quite complex, and it is very easy to fall into simplifications. What Bajeda and Psychonaut wrote is correct, however some elements need to be added for precision's sake

North Africans, Muslims.... The banlieue crisis is not based on a specific ethnic, cultural or religious group or identity, though north africans and africans are indeed vastly represented in french subrubs. It is a social and economic issue, which has given birth to a form of new "class consciousness", not politically organised as were the pre-war workers, an identification based on living conditions and area. A sub-culture, marketable, attracting even the bourgeoisie for cheap thrills pretty much like the "apaches" hoodlums of the 1900's, with behavioural, dress and speech codes. Why are north africans and western africans so represented in french suburbs ? France was a colonial power, in which Algeria was a part of France- the 1950's and 1960's decolonisation / cold-war backed struggle for independence lead to the Algerian war of independence which is still a major cultural trauma, and fuel for everyday racism.
The first generation of North African immigrants which came to build the new France in the "glorious 30's", the 30 years of economic development which followed the 2nd world war never really "lived in harmony" with the french, as France has always been a curious balance of racism and a "republican" ( not in the north american meaning of the word) ideal of equality for all citizens. They, the workers, north african, african, but also from other southern countries, portuguese, south italian had to live somewhere, at a time when cities were being rebuild / rethought. so new towns ( villes nouvelles) were created, and suburbs of large cities were turned into sleeping quarters for the workers, which where piled up in "cités" cheap concrete highrise blocks, projects if you will, to which architects gave optimistic names such as the "city of poets" or the "city of the 4000".
Unfortunately, with the 1970's came economic crisis, social marginalisation, and the ideal of republican equality never happened. and the 1980's saw, through the combination of foolish urban planning by architects and socio-political visions the creation of monstruous suburban ghettos, badly maintened apparetement blocks building in which the poor, the workers and migrants were grouped, expelled from city centers as Bajeda explained- a movement which is still at play today today, though some people are fighting for maintaining social mixity in city centers, this is not happening. With social and economic marginalisation came frustration, then anger, then repression, violence, statelessness, the works...the cités / banlieue / quartiers sensibles were born and are still thriving.

While there is a large majority of north-african immigrants from Algeria, Morroco and Tunisia, there are also many west-african immigrants, and people from other immigration waves, such as South East Asian ( again linked to France's colonial past ), mainland chinese, turks etc...

The suburban "banlieue" crisis cannot be linked to one ethnic group or even religious orientation.
It is a very real social and economical crisis caused by France's political system, and nothing is done to really change things. on the contrary, the current economically ultra-liberal ideals and repression aggravate things. On a more theoretical level, it is also linked to more global trends such as the media relayed, and economically dominant ultra-liberal model. A model which is creating more inequalities while while enriching fewer and fewer while maintaining the illusion of potential merit / work based access to economic prosperity. A model which is currently greatly put forward by the cactual french government, while symetrically destroying social welfare on the basis of stirring up survivalist work instincts. Cynically one might almost say.

Ethnic origins and cultural affiliation, wether real or fabricated, and religion however, have been playing increasingly important roles in the past years. As elsewhere in the world, islam has become a positive identification factor....one which has been favoured by governments since fundamentalist believers rarely cause problems, unless they flip to terrorism---which has paved the way for an increase in interest in islamic faith, fueled by the new-vietnam feel of the causes of Irak and Afghanistan, the whole heroism of rebelion against dominant oppressive western "christian" powers...

by which i mean that islamism, or the rise of the islam, is not in anyway the cause of these issues, but a consequence. The current french government actually considers developping religion as a positive way of diminishing suburban violence....so much for the secular ideals of the "republique"
For a young western African ( even if they come from a christian background) or north african of the banlieues, as elsewhere in the world, taking on a strongly muslim identity is a political affirmation, a way of defying the secular french ideals of the "republique", and a way of putting forward an identity rooted in protest and oppression. Which is also why north africans and africans are increasingly feeling concerned with the israelo-palestinian conflict, with which they culturally have very little in common more than a fabled "pan-arab" identity---- which is certainly not recognised in the middle east... "antisemitism" ( imprecise term, arabs are semite as well...), as racism against jewish groups is often known, is also on the rise, in a new form, because of these factors.
same goes for the rising nationalism for one's roots or origins, strong in third generation migrants, who grew up in france, and yet now think it better to put forward an north african identity and despise french identity, despite their parents and grand-parents' efforts for them to become french by all means. The french ideal of "republican" equality is very different from anglo-saxon communautarism, and this current mess is really a failure based on the political mistakes made in the late 1960's. France has always been a land of open to migration, and when strictly applied, this approach worked well.
Yet nowadays, the accumulation of marginalisation of the migrant population, social hypocrisy and recently oppression has lead to a situation which will take years to be sorted out.
drug trade, clandestine economy and violence, physical or symbolic are natural consequences. There is a lot of fear, and the government is using this fear for many political purposes at once. And while the situation is indeed really problematic, it is important to keep in mind that there is also a lot of propaganda at play here.

b

Reputation Comments on this post:

	very informative
	Excellent explanation.

[MountainDeW]

So who is selling to whom? Who controls the drug trade? I only mentioned the Muslim thing because I am aware that in certain regions of the US various ethnic groups control the racket. By this I mean Hispanic gangs and Columbian coke dealers and stuff. It is probably a much different story in France. I realize that my world perspective is slanted and corrupted by my regional outlook. So my question is this, who runs these gangs, Disenfranchised youths, poor suburb dwellers, big businesses and what can the Netherlands do to stop it?

[Benga]

the "gangs" are self organised by cite dwellers themselves. In many cases it would actually be a little incorrect to call them gangs per se, as they don't have gang like structure, codes etc...
Let's say that they're opportunist, capitalist groups run by by geographical location, from "cité" to "cité", from project to project. The guys from one cite will be in competition with others from another, and yet it's not a turf war as most cites were build by architects like castle towns and are rarely fighting for control of a territory, as limits are physically marked. Turf wars are a more of an urban issue than a suburban one in France. Cités are actually geographically independent, and if they're attached, they'll be considered as one group.
The feeling is pretty much like the village pride of yore. most of the fighting is actually honour based rather than based on economics as business seems to bring everyone together.
as elsewhere these people grew watching up "scarface" and "carlito's way", references which pop up all the time in french hiphop.
a village pride which stretches to the larger administrative division, a little like the boroughs or counties, the "departement" ( it's always quite ironic to see people opposing french identity so attached to this typically french administrative division....). It's mostly a question of who's the most hardcore, for example you'll hear of competition in the parisian suburbs between the 93 and 77 for instance, in other words the Seine St Denis departement and the Seine et Marne ( never called that way, only by the zip code numbers).
the identification goes from the major city to which the suburbs are attached to ( Paris and Marseilles are well known "rivals"), to the departement ( around paris, the 93, 77, 94, 78, 92...) then the suburban town itself, then the project block / the cité ( les tarterets, les 4000...).
TV stations had to stop giving detailed reports of the number of cars burned etc in the last "riots" as it fueled competition between cités, to see who could be the baddest. This was also relayed online through blogs and the like.
in the cité, you'll have "bosses", ie guys that have some kind of power ( usually strength, money, or a hardcore reputation), and pretty much everyone takes part in "the business". one's network relies on the local cité based exchanges, branching out as one gets more involved.

as for drugs, well cannabis, cocaine and heroin, and to some extent "ecstasy" come to France from abroad mainly through Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands, but also from eastern europe, via Turkey , or enter the country directly either from production sites via major trade hubs such as Morroco or African ports... A large amount, but not all, of smuggled goods end up in cités where small to medium scale sale ops exist. Cités have the advantage of having maze like caves under the buildings that the police has a hard time of actually referencing, and sometimes individual flats are used, like a old person's etc...

who is selling to whom, on a large scale importation level depends on geography and smuggling routes.
when it get to small / medium scale cité retail, it's not based on ethnicity or affiliation but on economics, it's sold by and to whoever's in charge, and has the funds and structure to back things up. You won't find a system like north american ethnic, gang brotherhoods, as french society is actually much more mixed than most anglo-saxon countries which have taken a communautarist approach to integration of migrants ( with the major exceptions of chinese areas, as elsewhere).
people who ended up making up the suburban population where just poor, socially marginalised people---- and nearly all of them migrants or born in the country of recent arrivals, which where made to live together in large projects, cités. Yet groups taking part in criminal activities are not organised according to ethnicity, but a more of a self-proclaimed identifactory sub-culture / class / cast, and a place of living.
one has to keep in mind that the cités, with their towers, empty common areas and large concentration of inhabitants, are build like forts, hard to physically control or to enter for outsiders, and this context also strenghtens the physical identification to one's area...

what is expected of the Netherlands is most likely setting up files of potential traffickers ( and probably french users...), sharing of information on sting ops, road checks and the like. Probably focusing on the international connections of well know traffickers. Basically targetting the small scale and also larger scale runners who cross the borders with Belgium and the Netherlands I guess... a lot of the large scale trafficking relies on the road, inside regular containers, like other goods.

a well known ( actually exported), but old ( 1995...) movie on banlieues would be Mathieu Kassovitz' "la haine", "hate" in english, which might give a slightly poetic take on this atmosphere. another related thing to watch in order to see how cultural fantasies on banlieue are played with would be the video discussed here http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57071

b

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Appreciate your erudition in this thread (and others)

[MountainDeW]

Thanks for the detailed and on-spot replies Benga. One might actually yearn for a brotherhood and camraderie you depict the fort cities as having. Although, most gangs in America rely on the same appealing "hardore" attitude to attract young recruits. I am sure the same negative consequences of drug saturation afflict the residents of these places and the efforts of the French and Netherlands governments are attempting to stem the tide. Their efforts will most likely be met with newer and even more devious methods of transport, such as the use of minors, elderly, different countries of origin for drug imports and every conceivable method until France becomes a police state. This is obviously an exaggeration, but the current trends of international acceptance of new regulatory technologies such as "chipped" ID cards, "chipped" paper money, internet and phone record surveillance and increasingly pervasive video monitoring will only make it harder to hide the transactions of the drug underground. As we all move into this new century the baggage we bring with us, (i.e. religion, ethnicity, social class, age groups, prison affiliation, national origin) will only serve to ignite and unify discontents to rally together and oppose perceived repression. Nothing will ever really change, the idea that drug de-regulation will stop abuse is interesting to contemplate, but hasn't a state of drug freedom already existed in the past before regulation started because of a drug problem? i like the idea of regulating hard-drugs and letting soft-drugs be sold to consenting adults. Anyways I'm getting off track, thanks for your replies.