Drug info - Vaporizing Datura

[splish6]

SWIM does not advocate Datura use, as that usually gets a thread locked.
Anyway, SWIM has a couple of questions:

-Since smoking Datura tends to give more positive effects for some reason, is it possible to vaporize it?

-Why exactly does smoking it have more positive effects? Are certain chemicals that give the bad effects lost?

That's it, thank ya.

[enquirewithin]

The active ingredients of datura are scopalamine and atropine. They are used in medicine in tiny amounts sometimes. It has also been used as a poison. They are very toxic and are also what give you bad effects. This is a deleriant not a psychedelic-- it makes you delirious. Some people may have enjoyed the experience but not many. It's not enjoyable enough as a drug to even be made illegal.

[Lobsang]

Well by smoking it the dose is maybe lower. But Datura is way to dangerous to use. By that I mean that many people have done totally insane things on it and not come down for a LONG time. It is not predictible and should be avoided entirely in this culture.

[enquirewithin]

A friend of SWIM's took scopalamine and went on a three day bummer during which he was talking to non-existent people and nearly got put in a mental institution by his parents. Not recommended.

[Panthers007]

Native people, such as the Mohawk, use this material to erase childhood memories during the ritual that ushers a young person into the ranks of the Warriors. It works very well for this. But:

I have seen Whites who took this as a "recreational" material and came back with part of their memories erased. How good would that be? Many of them became hysterically religious as a result - trying to find a roadmap to implant something, anything - to fill in the blanks. Talk about becoming mental-hospital bait...need I say more?

[timleary263]

swims smoked datura inoxia before, it actually seems loser to PCP to me than to atropine.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for your input : )

[splish6]

Hah, finally someone says something without adding in "don't do datura, it's horrible and not recommended and unpredictible and OMGZ!!!".

SWIM already knew all this and will probably never do datura. He was just curious about the questions he had. Damn. Why bother even having a Nightshades forum if these are the only responses you get?
Ok, I'm done ranting.

[Erytheia]

SWIM agrees with Lobsang on this topic, in that the more positive experiences are almost certainly due to the far more modest doses involved by that route of administration. By extension, she's sure that vapourising it would work just as well, though she has no experience or evidence to back this up.

As to your question about the point of a nightshades forum when such a huge majority of the posts are so deeply negative, SWIM thinks this falls into the same realm as telling a toddler not to touch an oven door - after a point it's unnecessary, but were someone to not say it and then have their child burn themselves...
In other words, it's said into obsolescence but it's something that needs to be said; simply scan past any posts that repeat what SWIY already knows and continue to inform SWIYself as best as possible.

[splish6]

Well why don't we have an Inhalants thread then? Why can't we tell the toddler not to touch that oven?

Either get rid of the Nightshades forum, or add in an Inhalants one. That's all I'm saying.

[Potter]

Overall people who use inhalants don't bother coming online to look for help. People who use them end up too fucked up to help others. None of the mods here have inhalant experience, and aren't willing to deal with the issues involved. There is no traditional use to be discussed with them either.

You make a point that the forums here don't usually help people with their datura use. This is a harm reduction forum, and that is how you reduce harm from datura. The fact is, that no advice given is going to make it safer. The techniques and equipment to standardize a dose simply don't exist in the drug community.

Part of the problem nobody's seen in this forum, is most of the posters are newbies, often they are posting their second or third post here. What they want are shortcuts that don't exist. If you spend some time and let us get a chance to know you, then things may be different when you ask a question.

If you'd like more positive threads on the subject, post information, not questions. There is a henbane beer thread around that was very well received. Show us you know what these plants are. Show that you can handle such experimentation. Show citations, back up your proposed experiments...

Love.
Potter.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Very good advice, and unpatronizing
	Good advice for newbies

[Lou1024]

Why is the Nightshade section here to begin with? Everyone refuses to answer any question. No matter what. A question left unanswered can lead to bad things. If someone is dedicated to trying Datura at any dose (this includes very low doses for lucid dream stimulation), swim believes DF has the responsibility to at least post relevant information.

[helikophis]

Originally Posted by Lou1024

Why is the Nightshade section here to begin with? Everyone refuses to answer any question. No matter what. A question left unanswered can lead to bad things. If someone is dedicated to trying Datura at any dose (this includes very low doses for lucid dream stimulation), swim believes DF has the responsibility to at least post relevant information.

Well, do it then! This is Web 2.0: user-generated content. If you believe DF has a responsibility to provide this information, then, as a user, it is _your_ responsibility to provide it. You might even get some good rep for it.

[Lou1024]

Originally Posted by helikophis

Well, do it then! This is Web 2.0: user-generated content. If you believe DF has a responsibility to provide this information, then, as a user, it is _your_ responsibility to provide it. You might even get some good rep for it.

Answering a question relating to Datura is not well taken. The question is avoided and in its place a "Don't do Datura!" post is given.

[Potter]

Nobody just read a good portion of the threads here, and am beginning to wonder where you're coming from, as most of them have good answers given. The ones that don't usually tend towards people who don't know anything about the plants "what do they look like? where can I find them?". Or "is doing datura a good idea?"

There was the recent "I want to make an extract" which was a first post and when questioned as to "why?" the poster never attempted to explain what they intended to do with it. Frankly this sounds awful suspicious. The fact that the subject had already been discussed and there is recipe availible for those who really do want it, well that's not the point.

Now your asking about "positive effects", the fact that the vast majority of people in the drug community don't associate this plant with the word "positive" is going to effect their responses. It makes nobody wonder if you have experienced this plant first hand, or are simply reading others experiences.

As for why smoking is safer then eating or what not... that's explained pretty much every printed source on this plant, because it allows you to gauge your reactions as the plant is consumed, and lets you do so slowly. With eating it, you put it in your gut and hope for the best.

Vaporizing, get a Merk index, that will tell you what you need to know.

[helikophis]

Originally Posted by Lou1024

Answering a question relating to Datura is not well taken. The question is avoided and in its place a "Don't do Datura!" post is given.

I'm going to have to agree with Potter on this. A quick search of the forum showed several good answers to datura questions. Also, on reviewing his posts, I see that Lou1024 hasn't actually posted any responses to datura questions, which makes me wonder on what basis he claims that such answers are "not well taken."

Again, if he feels that it is the forum's responsibility to provide answers to certain questions, perhaps he should try doing a bit of research and trying to provide some answers. Complaining that they aren't getting answered is only going to get you replies like these, sorry.

[sunyata]

Originally Posted by splish6

Why bother even having a Nightshades forum if these are the only responses you get?

First of all, it keeps all the other sub-forums clean from nightshade posts.
If I remember correctly there was a lot of discussion about nightshades in the early days of DF, not just about toxicity, but also how to use these plants.
After a while a consensus seemed to form that these are not things to recommend and it would be best to advice any new comers not to play around with it.

Much of the old information is still here, though swim deleted some of his old posts, including a dosage chart provided by a very dubious source. Searching through this sub-forum will still provide a lot of info.

And swiy also has to consider that the kind of responses which are given to most new posts in this forum are the only ones appropriate. And, since unlike castor beans and aconite, these plants are sometimes used by misguided individuals for "getting high", there is most definately a call for this forum. The aim of DF is harm reduction, not getting you high at any cost.

And then there is the issue of liabillity; if a DF member gives some advice to another member and this member uses that info to fatally poison either himself or others, how will that reflect on the forum? What implications would that have for the future of, not only this forum, but others like it?

Reputation Comments on this post:

good summery, glad to have some "old guard" input here.

[Moerass]

Originally Posted by Potter

Overall people who use inhalants don't bother coming online to look for help. People who use them end up too fucked up to help others. None of the mods here have inhalant experience, and aren't willing to deal with the issues involved. There is no traditional use to be discussed with them either.

If this is how people here think, I made a mistake of registering. Sorry.

Moerass added 8 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

SWIM started with inhalants when he was 14.
You take what you can get, just like everybody else. and if you can't make your own lsd (my apologies if i am wrong) you are like most people dependent on more or less seedy characters to get your enlightenment.

Reputation Comments on this post:

inhalants are anti psychedelic and do nothing but harm.

[=SKA=]

There is really only one sound, safe purpose to use Datura IMHO and it is taking 3 seeds before bedtime to induce vivid dreams of a higher awareness. This to either enhance dreaming experiences or to make one's dreams easier to become lucid in.

Other than that, the only other purpose Datura has is to do Harm.

And Moerass, how is huffing one's braincells to hell going to lead to enlightenment? And how is that even remotely comparable to the Psychedelic experience?
If SWIY can't manufacture his own LSD then SWIY should try harder connecting with the right people and obtaining it via them.
If one seeks substances that can aid in achieving enlightenment; Go guy a San Pedro or Peyote cactus and grow it, go grow Salvia Divinorum, go grow magic mushrooms or hook up with the kind of people that can get these psychedelics to you.

Huffing ether, glue or benzene has NOTHING at all to do with enlightenment and everything to do with being a (mostly self-) destructive, ignorant fool.

If proper psychedelics aren't available to SWIM, SWIM will look harder. SWIM will not take "what he can get". SWIM takes the best, cleanest and most effective Entheogens, or SWIM doesn't take anything at all.

SWIY needs a proper punch of pure DMT vapor to know what a proper psychedelic experience is.

[Stradivarius]

I never did or will do drugs.Drugs are bad.
If a substance is especially dangerous i believe it's everyone's duty to mention this every time they can.Leaving that aside "safe"-er use can help those who would try this half drug half poison anyway.As far as i know(please correct me if i am wrong) oral dosages tend to be way more intense than smoke/vapor route.Also like someone mentioned before the quick onset of smoking can aid a more acurate dosage.
I believe that since something can be smoked(i am not saying datura is smokable cause i do not know) it can be vaporized too.
About Nightshades and Inahalants even the unbiased erowid says that there's no way of safe use for them.So except experiences and stories there's no good "dosage" or "route of administration".And experiences can vary because each person reacts differently.


*** As a general rule, Erowid neither recommends nor discourages the use of any psychoactive, however, in the case of tropane alkaloid-containing Solanaceae plants, we think it is important to note that an overwhelming majority of those who describe to us their use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous.

There is no way to guess a reasonable dose, because potency of the plant material itself and appropriate dose for an individual appear to vary so much. The question of what "reasonable" means for something that so often leads to such ridiculously negative effects is hard to say.

As an admixture plant in some traditional ayahuasca brews, smoking blends, or other preparations, parts of these plants are generally used in very low doses. Because of the serious adverse consequences associated with tropane alkaloids (scopolamine, atropine, hyoscyamine) intoxication and the wide variation in doses used, we are unwilling to even speculate about specific dosages for the leaves, flowers, and seeds of these plants.

If you are considering ingesting Datura-group plants, please read extensively from the collected experience reports and never take them without a reliable, sober sitter who understands the likely health issues and who can stop you from walking in front of traffic. Please note that fatalities from ingesting Datura do occur and hospitalizations seem to be quite common, in spite of the relatively low rates of psychoactive use of these plants. ***

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Very biased information, but at least some-what helpful in harm reduction.
	A level headed and mostly unbiased response

[Joe_Pinko]

Originally Posted by splish6

-Since smoking Datura tends to give more positive effects for some reason, is it possible to vaporize it?

SWIM thinks this possibly takes the cake, in the realm of bad ideas.

[RaverHippie]

Originally Posted by Joe_Pinko

SWIM thinks this possibly takes the cake, in the realm of bad ideas.

Therefore this thread gets the tag of "bad ideas"

[Neosapien]

Smoking datura gives a more positive effect because the heat destroys most of the alkaloids. The lower heat of vaporization may leave more of them intact and result in an experience more like ingestion.
Smoked henbane is the only way to approach these plants, IMO, and then only with caution and a sitter.

[Neosapien]

Yes, start small, but in my friend's experience, big, lungfilling bong rips of datura seed, foliage, flowers, or even belladonna seed don't do anything but taste bad and make one dizzy.
Bong rips of dried henbane flowers on the other hand had him howling at the full moon convinced he'd gone lycanthropic - though he howled quietly, having enough reason left to know that he didn't want to have to explain his metaphysical transformation to the cops. I doubt an infusion would have left him with this much sense.
Henbane seed can be burned on a charcoal pellet and the smoke inhaled for a very dissociative experience without the days long hangover of ingestion.
Not advocating, just passing on some empirical knowledge. These are very powerful plants (though I'll not say dangerous, because what is danger if not merely potential power in the hands of an idiot?) to those of us with central nervous systems, but there are ways of approaching them intelligently.

[Greenport]

Wouldn't inhaling the alkaloids increase the overall negative side effects?

Aren't some of those side effects physical, like blindness and death?

SwiM doesn't think that this is a good way to consume datura. SwiM would say if swiY's gonna try it anyways to post a report, but it sounds like a bad idea. The normal routes would probably be better with less risks of physical effects...

[Potter]

actually inhaling seems to be the safest as the effects come on the fastest and when attained, one can move away from the smoke. That being said locking the patient in a small room with a large quantity of smoke... well we call that malpractice