Opinions - Why are even doctors ignorant about the positive potential of opiates?

[Lobsang]

Well we have to remember that even if a physician beleives that opiates help depression it is highly unlikley that one would prescribe. Such an off lable use could end up with the DEA and a lost license. You just can't go writting prescriptions for opiates for depression no matter what you believe. Hell the DEA has everybody so scared they are afraid to write for legit pain uses. And actually by medical ethics doctors should be writting for opiates more for pain. But the DEA is on the other side of the See Saw. I mean if the DEA gets a wiff of a problem they can be in your office pulling records. So people are scared...

I mean one time the DEA was sending around this lady posed as a patient asking for valium for anxiety. My friend almost wrote the prescription but in a moment of suspicion said "why don't we try something else instead" later to find out that this was a wise decision. And this friend was not a doctor that was considered a drug dealer. Just a normal doctor with a good reputation.

[TAz69x]

Well stated Beena!

It's great that the general consensus of use has derived opioids to be great for treating depression in some cases, possibly unique, with many people who have had the fortune of attempting this treatment.

You're correct about the prescription practices.
It's made my stomach creep when I heard doctors were AFRAID of prescribing something they KNOW has a high probability of beneficial treatment (even off label, which I've seen a common prescription practice as well) because of the possibility of an undercover agent or the DEA.
This has a more negative effect than positive, as possible treatments are disbanded in favor of preserving a possible situation whereby a doctor could end up incorrectly targeted, even though they WERE prescribing the medication for beneficial purposes.

Hopefully this will lead to a situation soon where the undercover work and improper "crackdowns" on great doctors will end, or clinical studies will reveal irrevocably the beneficial effects of the treatments/medication in question.

In the end, a truly free nation derives one final rule however, with proper intelligence and knowledge, one should be free to do whatever and put whatever they want into their own bodies as long as it doesn't affect a third party (which the vast majority of drugs don't! - that is they don't induce a state of violence, about the only outside effect a drug could EVER have to a third party, or another person).
Eventually I would like to see this happen. As long as intelligence and knowledge is maintained, the right and ability of the individual should have absolute precedence over all else, especially considering that it true freedom.

[beena]

SWIM knows this and doesn't blame the doctors themselves (apart from there over-zealous prescribing of anti-depressants). SWIM realises the doctors' hands are tied, which is why she conceals from the doctor she has now (she believes she has finally found one of the few really good ones) her opiate use. She knows there is no point discussing the beneficial qualities of it because, even if doc agreed, he couldn't prescribe anyway. It's a sad situation. This is why SWIM would like to look into campaigning and putting pressure on the authorities to change the legal status and protocol when it comes to prescribing and using opiates.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very very good conclusion...sad as that may be.

[Richard_smoker]

very very good conclusion...sad as that may be. -DICK

[Lobsang]

Skidmark's Disease--Now this not to say that all medicine is bad--But as I see it a lot of us are stuck in Skidmark's disease.

http://www.mercola.com/townofallopath/index.htm

[Richard_smoker]

so wait...i watched the video...

lobsang, i thought you were an m.d...explain.
-DICK

P.S. in keeping with the video's metaphor...the FDA being composed of the business owners and the evil MD... i'm very curious... can you send me some research in favor of allopathic medicine... I'm afraid I don't know anything about it. what it is that they treat, how the treatments are designed & tested, and how the treatments are found to be effective or ineffective at treating disease (or preventing disease, as given by the metaphor of the stop-sign maker)

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

so wait...i watched the video...

lobsang, i thought you were an m.d...explain.
-DICK

Well I was trained in allopathic medicine. But that does not mean that I subscibe to all of it's tenents. I told you I practiced functional medicine. I am pretty disgusted with medicine outside of the critical care arena. There is a balance you know. I think traditional medicine is filled with a bunch of wingnuts and so is CAM(Complimentry and alternative medicine). Both are extremes with a few rational people in the middle...

P.S. in keeping with the video's metaphor...the FDA being composed of the business owners and the evil MD... i'm very curious... can you send me some research in favor of allopathic medicine... I'm afraid I don't know anything about it. what it is that they treat, how the treatments are designed & tested, and how the treatments are found to be effective or ineffective at treating disease (or preventing disease, as given by the metaphor of the stop-sign maker)

Allopathic medicine is a term that was coined in the 1700s for "orthodox" medicine. It actually is an incorrect term. And the video need to be taken very generally. I am not out to slam good medicine. Just bad medicine that does not work toward correcting root etiology.

[Richard_smoker]

Sorry. now i remember the definition of ALLOPATHY!

I guess i was a bit confused about allopathy as used in this context. i understand that your definition is the type of allopath that refers to traditional M.D.'s...i.e. an 'allopathic' vs. 'osteopathic' physician.

for those who are confused about what we're discussing:

Allopathic Medicine: traditional physicians are known as MD's..."Medical Doctor", and based upon the original members of this group, they got a nasty reputation centuries ago because of their controversial use of TOXIC POISONS to treat illness and disease...(e.g. modern terminology--drugs) As we know, "drugs" in following with the traditional definition of poisons, always have a lethal dose (overdose).
Back in the 1700's, and even in recent years (prior to discovery of Germs and Antibiotics), this link between care-provider and deadly poisons was probably not very well-received!

Osteopathic Medicine: less-traditional physicians. known as D.O.'s (in the US) for Doctor of Osteopathy...these dr's originated out of modern medicine...now viewed as an 'alternate' pathway into medicine for those whose grades & test scores are not quite high enough to be accepted into Medical School...to be fair, they do learn bone and joint manipulation and some elements borrowed (or..stolen, i should say) from chiropracty.

I guess I was thinking of homeopathic medicine or perhaps naturopathic medicine...that's what i need help with understanding!

Could you explain one of THESE??? or at least perhaps whatever kind of medicine is practiced by the website creators (from your video link)?

I can only assume that you agree with the website's tenants and philosophies regarding health and illness??

is this a fair assumption?

-DICK

[Lobsang]

Sorry. now i remember the definition of ALLOPATHY!

Well actually allopathy was a term coined by the late MD in the 1700s that invented or should i say came up with the notion of homeopathy. It was actually a derogatory term. Homeopathy is partially based on the theroy that "like cures like" and and allopathy basically means that oppisites cure. But now allopathy is in general a term used in alternative medicine to lable a conventional physician. It is not a good term.

I guess i was a bit confused about allopathy as used in this context. i understand that your definition is the type of allopath that refers to traditional M.D.'s...i.e. an 'allopathic' vs. 'osteopathic' physician.

Well functionally there is no difference between MDs and DOs. Though they do get classes in manipulation most do not use it but practice exactly as MDs. You would be hard pressed to find any differences between DO and MD school except for the classes in OMT (osteopathic manipulative therapy). Medicine is medicine as taught in MD and DO schools. Now I do need to qualify that we are talking about in the USA. Because for example in other countries a DO is not a medical physican and practices only manipulative and possibley natural therapy.

So for functional purposes most DOs in the USA are the same as MDs. Hence "allopaths".

Osteopathic Medicine: less-traditional physicians. known as D.O.'s (in the US) for Doctor of Osteopathy...these dr's originated out of modern medicine...now viewed as an 'alternate' pathway into medicine for those whose grades & test scores are not quite high enough to be accepted into Medical School...to be fair, they do learn bone and joint manipulation and some elements borrowed (or..stolen, i should say) from chiropracty.

Well this is a pretty slanted and somewhat innacurrate statement. First off like I said there is no difference in the training except for manipulation basically. And the dig on DOs as not having as good grades and MD failures is not at all accurate. It is true that DO schools have students that do not always have as good undergrad grades as the MD school. But they still have to have excellent grades. And a large number of kids that go to DO school go as a first choice. They could well get into an MD school. But chose DO. And I have known tons of DOs that do their residency in an MD hospital and become everything from internists to neurosurgeons and fine ones. Just to clarify. And furthermore the DOs did not "steal their manipulation from DCs (chiropractors)...Actually it to some extent is the other way around. You see osteopathy was started years before chiropractic. Osteopathy was started in 1874 and chiropractic in 1895. Osteopathy was started by an MD. Chiropractic was started by a school teacher/Apiary owner and self taught anatomist. And that is not knock modern DCs. Many are excellent but as with anything there are the wackos.

I guess I was thinking of homeopathic medicine or naturopathic medicine...that's what i don't understand. Could you explain one of THESE??? or at least perhaps whatever kind of medicine is practiced by the website creators (from your video link)?

Well the website is produced by Dr Mercola. Who is a DO practicing in the USA. I wouold say that he practicesnatural functional medicine. But I woud not doubt he might use frugs as well. He is actually quite bright.

I can only assume that you agree with the website's tenants and philosophies regarding health and illness??


is this a fair assumption?

I agree with a lot of what Dr Mercola says. But not all of it. I do not know Mercola to go into enough depth. Or everything he believes. I believe that there is truth to be gleaned from evidence based medicine and I also believe that there is truth in what many alt med people are saying. The job is to take what is rational from both..

Like I say medicine shines brialliantly in critical care, emergency care, cancer infections, and all that. But not very well in treating some forms of hypertension, obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, hormonal imbalances, types of CV disease and more

So when I practiced I was not locked into a "dogma" subscribing to no "wingnut philosophy"..You know like homeopathy or psychiatry as practiced by most (opinion)

[Richard_smoker]

gotcha.

i didn't know that about osteopathic medicine being conceived prior to chiropractors...i had been told that chiropracty was an 'ancient' art (by a chiropractor, nonetheless). he also told me that the osteopathic dr's had 'stolen' the manipulation of joints from them...as a way of integrating Medical Docs with the 'popping' aspect of Chiropracty.

but, then, everything you say about osteopathy is 100% consistent with my prior understanding...-DICK

[Lobsang]

i didn't know that about osteopathic medicine being conceived prior to chiropractors...i had been told that chiropracty was an 'ancient' art (by a chiropractor, nonetheless). he also told me that the osteopathic dr's had 'stolen' the manipulation of joints from them...as a way of integrating Medical Docs with the 'popping' aspect of Chiropracty.

Well you see this is coplicated. You really have to be very familiar with the history and what the DOs and DCs are doing. It is very hard to figure out. Now y9u see prior to the Osteopaths there were "bonesetter" in the old west. Families that past the art down. Now AT Still was an MD and he invented osteopathy because he say madicine fail in many cases. So he was looking for something. Now he came up with the premise that basically disease was because of altered vascular flow. Now he probably got his techniques--At least their root from the bonesetters. Now God oly knows where they got it. Possibley brought it from Europe. maybe got it from the Indians as some of them manipulate in their traditional methods. Now osteopathic manipulation was more gentle and used "long levers" to nmanipulate. More global and general in technique. But the focus was to get the fluids of the body moving.

Now we come to chiropractic. Now chiropractic origionally was very different than osteopathy. It was only performed with the patient face down and used short quick thrusts to the spine but did not tern or twist the neck like osteopathy. It was also short lever. Using the transverse and spinouses of the vertabrae as levers. Now if you look into the history of the chiropractors you will see that their founder DD Palmer stated that he took the art from the ancient greeks.

Now if we proceed into the translations of Hippocrates we will see that he was practicing a form of manipulation as Palmer did. To some extent substantiating the founder of Chiropractic's claim that he took it from the ancient Greeks. So what Hippocrates was doing resembled Chiropractic more than osteopathy.

But then it gets tougher because chiropractic colleges early on began to integrate osteopathic methods while also using the short lever moves in the prone position that Palmer and Hippoctrates used..

So in it's purist form it would probably be accurate to say that chiropractic is much older than osteopathy. But like I say most chiropractors are using a combination of chiropractic and osteopathic methods though they do not know it. So chiropractics origional core methods are likely older but a lot of what chiropractors do today is partially taken from osteopathy. So the chiro that told you that the osteopaths "stole" from the chiropractors is not really correct. But he is correct that the core root methods of chiropractic are probably much older. Like thousands of years old. And as stated we just do not know where the base roots of osteopathy lie. Well at least I can't figure it out. But modern osteopathic methods also have a little twist of chiropractic to them. making it more confusing. But not much.

But incedently there are statues maybe 5000 years old depicting sacral iliac manipulation. But not resembling chiropractic or osteopathy.

Confusing enough?

Reputation Comments on this post:

very interesting! Thanks for setting me straight!!

[epote]

swims opinion is this:

drugs should be prescribed to mental health problems to alleviate the symptoms in order for the patient to be able to ACCEPT treatment. I.E. You give antidepressants to feel better and be able to go through the behavioral, cognitive etc actions that need to be taken in order for the CAUSE of the depression to be removed.

opiates would not be all that good in that matter because the euphoria will be self sustaining and will further cause the patient to remove himself from actually dealing with his issues.

Reputation Comments on this post:

my point exactly!

[Richard_smoker]

very interesting, indeed!

is it true that when the joints are 'popped' that small amounts of endorphins are released--providing a burst of "pain releaf" as well as the addictive potential that i've heard of regarding the need to keep seeking manipulation?? perhaps an example of this would be seen in people who habitually pop their knuckles, cervical spines, and anything else they can figure out how to "pop"??

thanks
-DICK

[Lobsang]

is it true that when the joints are 'popped' that small amounts of endorphins are released--providing a burst of "pain releaf" as well as the addictive potential that i've heard of regarding the need to keep seeking manipulation?? perhaps an example of this would be seen in people who habitually pop their knuckles, cervical spines, and anything else they can figure out how to "pop"??

Well yes this is the theroy. That there is a gratification mechanism associated with chronic manipulation of the joints and this may be related to body opiates. But I seriously do not think that it is substantiated. This would go back to similar thinking as the gate pain thery of Melzack and Wall. Through the stimulation of large coated nerve fibers there will be an inhibitory effect on small fibers. And I guess an expanded version of that could proceed to the more global endorphin release. I think this could explain chronic self manipulators. That neurochemistry can change from the stimulation that occouts and it's effect on the cord. Maybe. I am no expert in this. And quite frankly I forget all the neurophysiology of all this. Some how in my mind I keep thinking of a chiro named Holder and his research into addiction and joint dysfunction and the "brain reward cascade" But I am just not up on this stuff..I know he treats drug addicts with some form of spinal adjustments.

As far as people needing to keep seeking manipulation. I do not know the answer to that. It could be the feeling of well being after manipulation. It could be legitimate relief from pain, stress and tension. Better mobility and function that is counteracted by gravity and stree so they want to keep balanced, mobile?? Some placebo mixed in. Probubly different things. But back to this concept of the brain reward cascade and this chiro. I just searched it and found this..Like I say somehow I sense this may be connected.

The University Of Texas Houston Health Science Center
School of Public Health Dept. of Behavioral Service

Breakthrough Brain Research Links Chiropractic
Treatment to Addictive Behaviors
Kenneth Blum, Ph. D., D.A.C.A.C.D.; John G. Cull, Ph.D., FAABM and
Jay Holder, D.C., D.A.C.A.C.D.

A "brain reward cascade" of neurotransmitters, when operating properly, results in feelings of well-being. If an imbalance impedes the normal flow of the "cascade", the feelings of well-being are supplanted by anxiety, anger,... or by craving substances which alleviate the negative emotions. Disruption of the "brain reward cascade" results in Reward Deficiency Syndrome ("RDS").

"RDS" can be manifested in mild forms (such as the chain smoker) or more severe forms as in the chemical addict. A genetic based biochemical inability to derive reward from everyday activity links these extremes in behaviors. Alcohol addiction, obesity (as a result of carbohydrate binging), nicotine addiction, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, cocaine addiction, Tourette's disorder, and post-traumatic stress disorder are centrally mediated "RDS" behaviors. Anomalies of the Dopamine D2 Receptor genes, Dopamine Transporter genes, and Dopamine Beta hydroxylase genes predispose individuals to "RDS".

Lack of dopamine receptors results in the inability to cope with stress and causes craving. A number of substances (i.e., alcohol, cocaine, marijuana, nicotine, carbohydrates) that release neuronal dopamine may be taken in the attempt to gain temporary relief of stress and craving. These substances can be used singly, in combination, or to some extent interchangeably (have you noted how often recovering alcoholics crave nicotine and/or sugar?).

In support of a comprehensive treatment regimen for "RDS" behaviors, we must review research establishing the vertebral subluxation complex as a primary issue in the multi-factorial expression of addictions and compulsive disorders. The foundation of chiropractic is neurological; therefore, for our purpose we re-focus on neurophysiology and neuroimmunology.

The state of well-being has not received adequate scientific investigation in chiropractic; nor has vertebral subluxation received due study relative to its ability to interfere with the expression of both function and communication "information". The "Brain Reward Cascade" model is effective in providing a better understanding of one's ability to maintain a state of well-being.

Feelings are mediated in the limbic system and are expressed through the reward cascade of neurochemicals. A number of these neurochemicals including neuropeptides are the biochemical mediators of a state of well being. Using autoradiography science has established opiate receptors are densest in the amygdala and hypothalamus (classically considered the core of the limbic system). Pert and Dienstrey (1988) expanded the limbic system (the neurosubstrate of emotions) to include the amygdala, hypothalamus, dorsal roots and dorsal horn of the spinal cord. In this regard a direct connection of the nocioceptive reflex at any level of the spine to the limbic system has been established.

Moreover, we suggest it is time to accept that "every level of the spine has an intimate relationship with the limbic system's ability to process and establish a balanced brain reward cascade" (Holder and Blum, 1995). A literature review (Holder and Blum, 1995) revealed only vertebrates have an opiate receptor brain reward cascade mechanism; therefore, inspite of opioid peptides found in invertebrates, only vertebrates express a well-being state. In this instance the common denominator is the spine and spinal cord. If the spine is allowed to express itself without interference (minus subluxations), the vertebrate can express a state of well-being at its greatest potential. Consequently, the ability of the limbic system to function and express itself without interference requires a subluxation free spine. In 1994 The Holder Research Institute finished a study implicating the vertebral subluxation complex as a primary intervention resource in the treatment of chemical dependency in a residential setting.

Pert and Dienstfrey (1988) state "The sub-conscious is in the spinal cord and even lower" and :the sub-conscious extends to one's T-cells [and] one's monocytes, and,... back to one's brain cells." The origin of Pert's interference was at the dorsal horn of the spinal cord.

Burstein and Potrebic (1993), Harvard Medical School, provide evidence for direct projection of spinal cord neurons to the amygdala and orbital cortex. Their laminar distribution in the spinal cord and the involvement of the amygdala and orbital cortex in limbic functions suggest these pathways play a role in neuronal circuits that enable somatosensory information, including pain, to effect autonomic, endocrine, and behavioral functions. Giesler, et al. (1994), University of Minnesota, found the spinal pathways to the limbic system for nocioceptive information; they describe the pathway to include the hypothalamus bilaterally. Prior to Giesler, et al. nocioceptive information was thought to reach the hypothalamic neurons through indirect, multisynaptic pathways.

Raffa et al. (1993), Robert Wood Johnson Pharmaceutical Research Institute, report evidence linking the immune and opioid systems. Kyles et al. (1993), University of Britol, found that when dopaminergic and opioid systems process nocioceptive information it is mediated spinally.

Chiropractic must be maintained on a broad base, not limited to musculo-skeletal applications. Further evidence supports the connection of a healthy spine in mediating, not just immune system function, but growth factor, chemotaxis of human tumor cells, body temperature, water saving and water seeking behavior, etc. (Pert and Dienstfrey, 1988).

Similarities between the addictive process and subluxation are striking. When one considers these similarities and the connection between the subluxation complex and genetic deficits in the dopaminergic system, it becomes important for the modern chiropractor to consider a total regimen of natural healing including the maximum reduction of the subluxation complex, genetic testing, and the administration of appropriate neutraceuticals.

[Richard_smoker]

very interesting information there, Lobsang...

I am intrigued by the implication that vertebrates all have 'subconsciousness' as the spinal cord and limbic system are all containment for the subconsciousness.

also, the so-called Reward Deficiency Syndrome--never heard of it before--but certainly makes a helluva lotta sense... wonder why none of this ever comes up in 'regular' medicine circles??

i mean, the basic neuroanatomy jives with medical medicine, but the disorders and the functional significance is way way different...where did you find this article, anyways? were you searching specifically for a chiropractic source?? perhaps that explains the non-conventional language found within the article.

very very intriguing stuff. i'm very open to reading this kind of stuff...so far, nothing strikes me in the face as being contrary to rational principles...

once I had a DO explain to me how that although most DO's that I know of did, in fact, attend allopathic residencies, this is somewhat unusual for the typical DO...accordingly, the maneuvers get more and more complicated...according to this guy, there are "ventricular" adjustments for treating migraines and other CNS phenomena. Do you have any experience or knowledge of squeezing CSF around the different ventricles?? (haha...i can't help but laugh at this...i mean, if it works, then it isn't funny at all, but somehow, I feel like I can't even repeat this without smiling.) so far, i have never had anyone confirm this story.
-DICK

[ex-junkie]

its a hard one, because doctors can lose their licenses by over prescribing opiates to patients. add the few who would completely abuse their prescriptions, and on top of that all the other patients who would be seeking opiates from them in a doctor shopping stylee, means its more harmful for them to prescribe them. not only for the addiction potential, but for the very reason they can lose the job that took them so many years of study to obtain/cost them an arm and a leg to study for.

its no surprise they would choose their careers over prescribing them (at this point).

[dyingtomorrow]

This pisses SWIM off too.

SWIM too has been on every anti depressant, and a whole slew of weird mind drugs to try and make him want to live, and heroin is the only thing that does it. Then, on top of it, the only two opiates you can get, bupe and methadone, are the worst ones that don't do anything for SWIM.

Ughhh it really makes SWIM hate the world. It's such a fucking stupid thing, if SWIM had a button to destroy the world he would press it.

[ex-junkie]

there are dodgy doctors all over the place though. only trouble is, they get shut down unexpectedly and leave all their patients completely fucked. not sure its worth the hassle trying to find one, and even if one can be found, theyre usually not taking on any more patients.

[Lady Codone]

Most doctors ARE ignorant to the positive mental/emotional effects of opiates on disorders like depression, anxiety, OCD, and others...the ones that AREN'T totally dismiss their potential because of the fear of addiction, tolerance, mental numbing, and other unwanted side effects--all valid concerns.

With that said, prescription antidepressants like SSRIs and others are only effective for a small percentage of patients with a specific type of serotonin-linked depression, and even then only slightly more than placebo in studies. And there are many different kinds of depression, of which endogenous opiate (endorphin and enkephalin) deficiency/dysfunction is only one. Opiates aren't effective for a majority of depression patients, either, due to their wildly varying effects on different people, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be an option for those that they DO work for, especially when all else has failed.

Both ADs and opiates carry significant risks, side effects, and pros/cons, with opiates having the added drawback of having to illegally maintain a steady supply to avoid rebound depression and withdrawal. Psych meds are cheap and readily prescribed, which is a big reason so many people take them. Neither ADs nor opiates are a magic bullet.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	You bring up some good points that need to be mentioned.
	"There is no magic bullet", good statement!

[Spucky]

Opioids/ Opiates "can" help a while,
but in all the Century`s where they are used it "heals"(1) no one.
Western Medicine have a Tradition, a Wish, "to heal" someone,
it`s out of Tradition and Mind to give a lifelong Support for "non life-threating" diseases!

(1. only diarrhoe)

I totally agree with Lady Codone:

Neither ADs nor opiates are a magic bullet.

[dyingtomorrow]

SWIM keeps hearing "addiction and withdrawals" as a reason for not prescribing opiates for psychological issues, no matter how severe the issue or how much they help the person. It is a completely ridiculous justification that people seem to just buy up without firing a single brain cell. They'd rather see people dead, than using an opiate that makes them function as a normal person is able to.

SWIM, for instance, was told to take Effexor for his severe depression, FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. And not only that, but coming off of it has horrible withdrawals. If you have to take something the rest of your life, until the day you die, obviously whether or not it is "addictive" doesn't fucking matter. Shit, no matter how "non-abusable" it is, that still makes it "addictive" in the most realistic life-pertinent sense anyways. I'm sorry - if you can't see how stupid it is to say that telling someone to take Effexor until they die is okay (no matter how ineffective or imperfect at best it is), but that no matter if some opiate helps a severely troubled person become 100% productive and have a normal life, they can't take it because of "addiction" and "withdrawal" issues - you are just brainwashed beyond help.

SWIM would wager his life that if you took all those people with severe, long term depression which finally turns to suicidal obsession and/or attempts, and prescribed them opiates out of the highly euphoric class (e.g. oxymorphone, morphine, oxycodone, hydromorphone, diacetylmorphine) you would save 75% of their lives and turn them back into productive and motivated members of society.

[miggeth]

Straight economics. They're coerced by pharmaceutical companies to prescribe new, synthetic drugs over natural, established ones. This coercion comes in the form of "gifts", and is legal in my country. You can't trust them, or anyone for that matter.

[cra$h]

This problem can be rooted back to the early 20th century, with the chinese opium dens, both in the US and China. The population suffered a massive addiction, and the streets were flooded with dope (wow, must be nice...) and eventually started hurting the entire nation pretty severly. Now doctors try to keep it low key, and not perscribe like they would with ritalin/aderall, just to prevent that horrible junkie who whores him/herself out, break into stores to pawn for dope, and spread around aids all while looking like a crippled, skin and bone ghost.

In shorter terms, they're scared to repeat the past.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by cra$h

This problem can be rooted back to the early 20th century, with the chinese opium dens, both in the US and China. The population suffered a massive addiction, and the streets were flooded with dope (wow, must be nice...) and eventually started hurting the entire nation pretty severly. Now doctors try to keep it low key, and not perscribe like they would with ritalin/aderall, just to prevent that horrible junkie who whores him/herself out, break into stores to pawn for dope, and spread around aids all while looking like a crippled, skin and bone ghost.

In shorter terms, they're scared to repeat the past.

Are there facts anywhere about how the Chinese nation was "hurt?" I know it is a common concept, but I wonder what the facts really are.

With regards to China, the only way I could see it being such a problem is because England was forcibly supplying the opium and using arms to protect their monopoly (rather than natural economics occurring), and all that money was flowing out of their economy; which if it stayed in, would not have had detrimental economic effects. But I really have trouble seeing how people would have any more trouble getting their work done smoking some opium after work than they would drinking some beers. The only difference is you could still get your work done reasonably well, if not better, on opium too. I think the ultimate crackdown had more to do with the new Chinese Communist government wanting to have complete and utter control over the minds and bodies of their drones / slaves; and using propaganda to that effect to destroy the opium culture - rather than it being a real problem where opium users became so useless that they just laid around and starved to death instead of farming or whatever.

With regards to the U.S. - it had very little with any actual effects of opium, and more to do with xenophobia over Chinese immigrants, and a desire to have a way to legally harass them and also discourage them from coming to the U.S.

I believe the actual text of the bill Congress passed in that case explicitly mentions the problem being that "chinese dudes were getting white women into their opium dens and running trains on them." Not anything about opium being harmful really.