Opinions - Why are even doctors ignorant about the positive potential of opiates?

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim has had every kind of anti depressant imagineable forced down his throat at one time or another.None of them did what they were susposed to.Finally when swim discovered heroin it did the things these no good anti depressants were intended to do.

Why do doctors continue to prescribe mentally hurt people with these no good,side effect filled,death pills when they have at hand things like oxycontin,mscontin,dilaudid and things that would successfully treat depression?Will the ignorant stigma that has been imprinted on opiates ever be lifted?What could be done to change peoples minds?

Reputation Comments on this post:

	I totally agree - and i'm so glad someone brought it up!
	This is something ive thought about for a long time!!! great thread

[FrankenChrist]

Um, tolerance and addiction issues?

I'm sorry we haven't discovered Aldous Huxleys soma yet.

[ihavequestions]

addiction would probably be an issue when it comes to opiates. as well as potential for abuse and tolerance builds quickly. it would be easy for a person to build up a tolerance and then end up needing massive doses of the opiate to acheive the same effect if they are on these opiates for years at a time.

but then again SSRI's are linked to suicides in teens and alot of them dont work at all. swim used to be on zoloft and the withdrawal sucks. swim cant even beleive doctors say SSRI's are "non addictive". instead of calling the symptoms associates with stopping an antidepressent as "withdrawal" they have the nerve to call it "discontinuation syndrome" LOL its the same damn thing! plus that SSRI's have been linked to long term damage. some people have those brain shocks for the rest of there lives after wuitting them.

i guess swim would see opiates as better. its just that the constant raising of dosages would get tiring. as well as poping several pills throughout the day. tolerance and addiction could easily get out of control

[dark12]

I suffer from depression and general anxiety disorder.
My scrip for Wellbutrin XL has been extremely effective at treating my depression; over the past year and a half it has turned my life around.
For my anxiety I keep getting prescribed Alprazolam (Xanax). It really doesn't help me with any of my anxiety problems. Unless I take 3mg or more (which is quite a large dose) I really don't feel anything. When I take that make it just makes me sleepy instead of comfortable.
I have always wished for a prescription of hydrocodone or something for my anxiety since it is by far the most effective drug I have ever come across for it.
I think opiates have more potential in treating anxiety than depression. Depression is something that effects you 24/7 while anxiety usually happens in bursts. You can't keep yourself doped up on opiates all day to be happy, but I think it is fine to be doped up for a couple hours to make yourself feel more comfortable in a situation. Then over time you will realize you are capable of handling that situation without the help of drugs and eventually taper off.
Regardless, I doubt any doctor would prescribe an opiate for either.

[Master_Khan]

Originally Posted by dark12

I have always wished for a prescription of hydrocodone or something for my anxiety since it is by far the most effective drug I have ever come across for it.

Testimony up in lights!

[Solinari]

Opiates for the treatment of depression and anxiety is just not a viable option. First off, they certainly do not get to the root of the problem and in my opinion, would become a hurdle to the root cause.

Secondly, the apparent anti-depressant effect is not an anti-depressant effect, it's euphoria, and in your skewed euphoric view of the world your problems seem to disappear while in reality they probably get worse while the dosage slowly creeps up till your face is eroded in to a ghostly gaunt likeness of your former self....

Methadone users are by far not the happiest group of people on earth, in fact when a lot of people come off of drugs such as heroin, they see how bad their life actually is, and with a large saved up or windfall dosage comes their final act.

Remember, Heroin (the brand) was said to be the answer to a lot of things, i am fairly sure mood would have been one, and of course cocaine would have been the other said to treat depression. Both these things, i am sure, wouldn't have came to be with a stigma attached, that would have came afterwards when the full effects became apparent.

That said, i do sort of see what you're getting at, recreationally a legal option, meh, possibly. A regular presumably constant treatment to low mood and social anxiety, never happen (maybe it even has, in the past).

[Orchid_Suspiria]

They certainly work for swim.And why are these anti depressants doctors like to hand out like candy anymore viable?They caused swim nothing but misery,turned swims girlfriend into a suicidal zombie,and have caused nothing but misery for countless others aswell.Euphoria is alot better than misery.

As someone else says it is disgusting that these idiot doctors try to say to this day antidepressants are non addictive and won't even call withdrawal by its true name.Discontinuation syndrome?What coy pricks!And they wonder why some people would prefer to self medicate than take their shitty effexor!

[Lobsang]

Why do doctors continue to prescribe mentally hurt people with these no good,side effect filled,death pills when they have at hand things like oxycontin,mscontin,dilaudid and things that would successfully treat depression?Will the ignorant stigma that has been imprinted on opiates ever be lifted?What could be done to change peoples minds?

Well I am not advocating the use of antidepressents. However SWIy is in error to believe that depression can be treated with oxycontin,mscontin,dilaudid in general. In the long run they will just make things worse as will poyt for that matter. They limit function too much in general. Unless it could be shown that an extremely low dose had an effect. But it is likley that if that was the case higher and higher doses would be needed. And for tha most part drugs only treat the symptoms of depression and not the cause (Other than psychedelics). It is not wise to bind receptors of any type with any drug as a maintenance for depression in most cases.

[dark12]

Yea I feel that using opiates for depression just puts a temporary band-aid on things so that you only feel comfortable when under the effects.
As far as Anxiety goes I think it would be successful because after you do well in anxious situations due to the opiate you will learn that your own insecurities are in your head and that the world isn't out to get you.

[beena]

Originally Posted by Orchid_Suspiria

Swim has had every kind of anti depressant imagineable forced down his throat at one time or another.None of them did what they were susposed to.Finally when swim discovered heroin it did the things these no good anti depressants were intended to do.

Why do doctors continue to prescribe mentally hurt people with these no good,side effect filled,death pills when they have at hand things like oxycontin,mscontin,dilaudid and things that would successfully treat depression?Will the ignorant stigma that has been imprinted on opiates ever be lifted?What could be done to change peoples minds?

SWIM totally agrees.....SWIM's doctor(s) have always been and still are so fucking eager to give her a script for anti-depressants. SWIM's medical history is scattered with mental health issues: clinical depression, suicide attempts, self-harm, anxiety and panic attacks. About five or six years ago she was diagnosed with a nervous disorder (which is a generic label - a variation of saying that someone has a personality disorder - that doctors use when they don't really have a fucking clue what's going on). SWIM first asked herself to be put on anti-depressants when she was 21 years old, believing all the hype that they were a miracle cure. How wrong she was.........they fucked her up so much more than she was already. SWIM started having suicidal thoughts, couldn't or wouldn't leave the house, stopped taking care of herself and so on. At one point SWIM didn't get out of bed for three days - couldn't see the fucking point.
When she returned to the doctor to explain what was going on the doctor assumed SWIM's mental health was deteriorating so switched SWIM to an even stronger anti-depressant and significantly upped the dose she was on.....SWIM just got more and more depressed - hell, she was even scaring herself with the crazy thoughts she was having - so she religiously popped those pills every day waiting for them to work and to magically get better. It never happened.
Luckily for SWIM she's got good friends and a brilliant boyfriend - he sat her down one day and told her bluntly that in his opinion the medication was killing me. After a long hard conversation with him and lots of tears shed SWIM took the decision to go against her doctor's advice and stop taking the pills. Within days SWIM started to feel better and a couple of weeks later she was almost back to normal.
When SWIM was off the meds and able to think rationally once again she realised that those anti-depressants she had been taking so religiously to get better had become part of the problem rather than the cure.
Since then, on many occasions SWIM visited the doctor to discuss her depression, anxiety issues and general mental health. The only thing her doctor would regularly and eagerly suggest giving her was anti-depressants, despite SWIM telling them exactly what had happened to her and how she had felt on them. SWIM was made to feel like she had got it all wrong - the meds would never have done that.
SWIM even read and watched reports on tv questioning the efficiency of drugs like prozac and seroxat: it was like her doctor had blinkers on -Anti-Depressants=good...no exceptions.
SWIM stupidly started self-medicating - using ecstasy, pot, coke and crack to begin with then later heroin and other opiates.
This just gave SWIM's doctor ammunition and something to latch onto 'it's the illegal drugs fault the anti-depressants aren't working' - but that was just bollock - they never worked in the first place.
When SWIM first took Tramadol, she was fucking amazed....they did the job anti-depressants were supposed to do. SWIM did some research and found out that in some countries they do in deed prescribe Tramadol as an anti-depressant....but not in the UK.
SWIM also knows MST work effectively as an anti-depressant for her....but as some people have already pointed out they are addictive and SWIM has both a penchant for opiates and an addictive personality.
That said for over a year now SWIM has taken 100mg of Tramadol each morning, regularly and sensibly...she doesn't overdo it and she doesn't feel like she is abusing the drug. She can't however tell her doctor what she is doing as her doctor would not agree....this means SWIM has to obtain these drugs illegally.
Just one other point SWIM would like to make about opiates being addictive and all - SWIM read that a person could take opiates all their life and they wouldn't really do any significant harm or reduce a person's life expectancy. With that in mind does it really matter if a person is physically/mentally addicted to the drugs....as long as they're being watched/overseen by their doctor and they're taking what they're prescribed (ie not abusing them), then who cares that their addicted.
At the very least doctors should consider opiates as a valid option for mental health problems/treatment. At the moment they are far too prejudiced and too narrow-minded in their approach. Unfortunately SWIM doesn't know if this is gonna change any time soon. Fingers crossed though.

beena added 22 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

SWIM apologise profusely for double-posting (especially after such a long post) but SWIM has just thought of something she feels is important to add. Remembering the original question/thread starter about why opiates aren't considered by doctors/those in the health profession...there is one thing that SWIM has thought of....the trouble with opiates is that users build up a tolerance to them so if a person was prescribed them for depression and the treatment was to be long-term, the amount they were prescribed would probably have to keep being increased.
I don't know how important this is as a consideration....this thread has really made SWIM think though and she has come to the conclusion that although it would definately not be a good idea to suggest everyone who has ever suffered with depression takes opiates, it would be a sensible and serious idea to consider prescibing to those for whom anti-depressants don't work/have negative side effects and especially to those for whom clinical depression is a long-term and/or recurring problem. SWIM feels that those people who fall into this last category (and into which she includes herself) should at least be given all the information/facts -good and bad of course - by their doctor and allowed to make an informed decision themselves.
SWIM thinks many patients would choose possible opiate-dependency over life-long suffering of depression if given the choice.
SWIM feels very passionately about this and wonders thinking about what Orchid Suspiria originally said 'will the ignorant stigma that has been imprinted on opiates ever be lifted?' if there are any pressure groups out there campaigning for better knowledge/use of opiates in modern medicine today???

[Orchid_Suspiria]

This is why swim will never,ever trust or listen to a psychiatrist ever again.They are liars that only seek to destroy a persons beautiful soul by telling them everything they believe is wrong and some pill that makes them into a miserable wreck is going to cure everything.They are the worst of parasites.They feed and profit off human misery and swim is convinced they know about the negative mental effects of these SSRI's.Afterall if they could really cure peoples suffering they wouldn't make money anymore.Psychiatrists are generally as slimy as a lawyer or rush limbaugh.

[ironmics]

Tramadol supposedly gets scribed as an anti depressant. I feel that this is more appropriate than other opiates. Other ones swing the meter a little too far. Tramadol seems to bring things to baseline though.

[ihavequestions]

swim has noticed that alot of other swimmers in this thread are saying that an opiate is only a "band-aid" to the problem. but if an opiate is a band-aid then what is the SSRI? thats a bandaid too. SSRI dont deal with the problem either. all they do is "treat" it. in other words numb you. swim knows this emotional numbness, he was one mean motherfucker when he was on zoloft.

and swims mother used to be on effexor (the worst of them) and went through hell. crazy out of control mood swings brain shocks sepersonalization etc. sounds terrible. swim feels lucky he was only on zoloft.

either way you look at it, both opiates and SSRI's are bandaids and neither actualy get to the root of the problem. it just differnt routes to tget the same effect. an escape from depression.


BTW: swim was put on celexa when he was in FOURTH GRADE. thats way too young to be on that shit. but swim alyas took it every other day or so. he pretended to swallow them in front of his mom but he just tucked it under his tongue. swim was a crafty little boy psychiatrists realy dont care about you. they are licensed dealers. and nothing more.

[dark12]

I didn't know they prescribed tramadol for depression. That would be pretty awesome. Is that in third world countries or something?

[Solinari]

Tramadol has some sort of effect on serotonin but i am not completely sure about these effects and what they are. Tramadol is barely an opioid, it has weak affinity for the mu-opioid receptor and is considered "atypical" in its group with low abuse potential. This is why doctors are willing to prescribe it, and it does have other accepted "off label" uses.

[beena]

Originally Posted by Solinari

Tramadol has some sort of effect on serotonin but i am not completely sure about these effects and what they are. Tramadol is barely an opioid, it has weak affinity for the mu-opioid receptor and is considered "atypical" in its group with low abuse potential. This is why doctors are willing to prescribe it, and it does have other accepted "off label" uses.

Tramadol works as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (or SSRI) in the same way as anti-depressants...for SWIM though traditional SSRI anti-depressants do not work whereas tramadol do...SWIM does not know why tramadol should work when these others don't, but thinks it must be something to do with its opiod qualities.....

SWIM has been using opiates for a while now and MS Contin are the ones she finds most effective for depression, although tramadol are reasonably effective too........SWIM disagrees considerably with the comment that they have 'low abuse potential' though......SWIM spoke to the manager of a rehab clinic about her addictions to tramadol and morphine and he told her that in his opinion tramadol were 'worse than heroin'....SWIM has experienced withdrawal from morphine, heroin and tramadol all individually and although heroin is worse in the short-term, when tramadol withdrawal really kicks in (on about the third day), it can be really quite horrific....only thing is it takes a lot longer for addiction to take hold with tramadol than with morphine or heroin.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim hardly considers tramadol an opiate.In swims early days of opiate use it was alright but swim and quite a few other people that self medicate with opiates and should be prescribed opiates for mental pain instead of just physical would barely even feel the effects of tramadol.In swims experience he has found the best two opiates for dealing with depression and emotional strife are heroin and mscontin.Swim is not sure why those lift mood better than the others but they do.

[cra$h]

if they made more opiate pills, the availibility for people who just wanna get fucked up would be there, and we'd be going back to the times of the early 20'th century, when you could get some H for a headache. but swim has found that even under 5mg of any painkiller works wonders compared to the evil drug tylenol. swim would love to see it, just for swim, but as for sociaty as a whole, it wouldnt be good. plus if they got codeine or something over the counter, swim would be hooked the 1st day.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Thats the arguement of prohibitionists that if we made these things legal we would have more users.But I don't think thats the case.If opiates were seen as medicine and not as something rebellious and dangerous I don't think we would have young people wanting to try them the way we do now during prohibition.Afterall alcohol is legal but not everyone is an alcoholic.Making opiates legal or at the very least the medical community reallizing they have more uses than just curing severe physical pain would do nothing but benefit society.

Swim is in misery every single day.Why is it so wrong for swim to have the only thing that does work for his depression and anxiety?

[cra$h]

Originally Posted by Orchid_Suspiria

Thats the arguement of prohibitionists that if we made these things legal we would have more users.But I don't think thats the case.If opiates were seen as medicine and not as something rebellious and dangerous I don't think we would have young people wanting to try them the way we do now during prohibition.Afterall alcohol is legal but not everyone is an alcoholic.Making opiates legal or at the very least the medical community reallizing they have more uses than just curing severe physical pain would do nothing but benefit society.

Swim is in misery every single day.Why is it so wrong for swim to have the only thing that does work for his depression and anxiety?

but it's already too late. kids go nuts over drugs like percs, and it's already been marked as a national problem. making them otc would without a doubt start a crisis since swim would most likely become opiate addicted, and so would a lot of swim's friends, since stealing some pills from the local store is much easier than paying for them

[dark12]

I don't think opiates like oxycodone or morphine should be available over the counter in stores, but I do think governments need to relieve the ridiculously strict terms of opiate prescriptions. I find it disgusting that doctors are afraid of prescribing these drugs to people that need them because they may be putting their medical license on the line.
But yes, opiates did make me happy when I was struggling with depression, but they didn't really help me learn to cope with problems. I know I am in the minority because of the fact that anti-depressants did in fact work great for me so I won't speak for everyone in my position. However I do believe opiates have a huge amount of potential in treating anxiety. I am currently prescribed Alprazolam(Xanax) for my anxiety and all it does is make me sleep instead of lower my social inhibitions.
Many people know that opiates help them with their anxiety or depression, they also know they won't get it prescribed to them for that reason; so they will do what many people do and buy them from the street. How sad is it that people need to self-medicate for legitimate health problem?

[beena]

I think the point is doctors prescribe opiates to patients for severe pain so why not those with severe depression. If you're talking about people abusing and becoming addicted to opiates then your saying that people who are prescribed them as painkillers are responsible enough not to abuse them but people with mental illness issues such as depression aren't. Also (shoot me down in flames if you like), I really just don't think it matters about becoming addicted to them. A person taking them for pain relief will be addicted to them. Eventually if that person's doctor decides to take them off the medication they will work out a plan to do it properly (reduce the doses bit by bit). Theres no reason this can't be done with people taking them for depression. Also I read that scientifically if a person was to take opiates all their life it wouldn't decrease their life expectancy or cause them any real harm. I'm talking about clean opiates as prescribed by a doctor of course. The damage and harm occurs when people are forced to buy off the streets. It's what drugs like heroin are cut with that usually causes users problems rather than the drug itself. With this information in mind I don't see why an individual who suffers with depression chronically can't be prescribed opiates as an anti-depressant long-term (perhaps even for life). Often people who are prescribed morphine as a pain-reliever will be taking it long-term. Why not treat depression in this way??
SWIM has already written on this thread about her own experiences with anti-depressants and the fact that they just don't work for her. She was in despair before she discovered opiates as she suffers with long-term depression due to a chemical imbalance in the brain (rather than because of things happening or happened in her life like a death of a relative for example) and couldn't get the right medical support. What SWIM finds frustrating is the fact that she can't tell her doctor what she's taking or even have a conversation about the fact that shes found something that works for her because she could get in trouble, the person she currently gets these pills off could get in trouble and she knows it wouldn't do any good anyway.
Another thing that really bothers SWIM and frustrates SWIM the most about this whole argument/situation is this idea that 'doctors know best' and that joe public can't be trusted with these 'controlled substances'. That phrase alone bugs me: why do they need to be controlled. And if they become more widely available and some people were to take advantage and 'abuse' them why does that actually matter so very much. Isn't it better to abuse legal pure opiates than go out onto the streets and get addicted to heroin. I also don't buy into the idea that if these things were legal or readily available suddenly society would become swamped with addicts or people off their faces. The sort of people who would abuse them are the same people who go out and buy heroin now cos thats what they can get hold of. I mean if you wanna get high you will, legal drugs or not. I can't imagine my mum suddenly rushing to buy opiates once they were legalised for instance....most people just wouldn't.
But we don't even have to go that far....I believe in legalisation personally but one step at a time. For now I think what needs to be pushed for is - keeping opiates classed as a controlled substance and only available by prescription (not OTC) - but more widely prescribing them: to more people and for different kinds of illnesses including and in particular depression.
Doctors need to start trusting their patients more and understanding that we know ourselves better than they know us.

[Lobsang]

I think all drugs should be legal no matter what the consequences to society. Ths concept of freedom is higher than any public good relative to what someone ingests in their own home or in privacy. So I would simply legalize all drugs and let the chips fall where the may.

[cra$h]

of course swim believes drugs should be legal, and ther should be no charges like DUI, and educate people better. this would make people make smarter decisions, and if they get fucked up and kill a person, they get charged with murder, and can't pull the whole I didn't know what i was doing bullshit. it would teach people to be responsible for themselves high or not.

[Lobsang]

if they get fucked up and kill a person, they get charged with murder, and can't pull the whole I didn't know what i was doing bullshit.

Well I think you will find that that stratagy does not work very often at all and people who kill someone while driving intoxicated are delt with very severely currently. But people still get drunk and drive. So I do not know what the answer is.