what happens when we die?

[sauvage]

http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/albi.htm
is a good short intro.
The reason why Catharism was so convincing at the time was that it seemed self evident that life in the (supposedly) physical world was so hard that it must, in fact, be hell. I guess that dosn't hold as much water now that life in general is easier but I still think it is a very elegant way of looking at things.

[billyloner]

Originally Posted by daeron

You claim that sequence of moments cannot occur without time.Now I ask you how does time cause this sequence,how does it produce thechange?I have thought about this very hard,and had come up with no answer.

i think i see now. time does not actually cause any of these events to happen, that is not what i mean. however think about what you really mean when you say, for example, "object A changes into object B". what we really mean is "object A changes into object B over time", its just that everyone automatically knows what we mean by change, without even thinking about it. the change from state A to state B will occur over a period of time dependant on the process that is taking place. the process itself does not require time, or depend on time to occur. however without time, there is no change - the object will be in state A and state B and all states in between 'at once'. i find it a bit easier to think about it in terms of motion. that is, if an object is in motion, it is moving from point A to point B over time. an object cannot move without time because motion is a phenomenon that occurs only when time exists. if time does not exist, then an object could not move from A to B over time.


the weird thing is, i know precisely what i mean in my head, i just dont seem to be able to write it down sufficiently!

Originally Posted by Katiii

maybe time is a loop? a continuous looping. i must add, what about when nothing exists? if there is nothing to change, is time ocuring or is it paused?

i have often wondered about if the universe is a loop. is this what you mean? the universe may just be a repetitive process. im doubting this now though since various pieces of evidence have been found that suggest the universe is expanding at an eccelerating rate and so could not collapse to be reborn. as for when nothing exists; somebody already pointed out that nothing cannot 'exist' however nothing is, tome, a lack of existence. its even harder to put this into words than what i was trying before, but ill give it a go. the big bang was the explosion OF the universe. not in the universe, but of it. if time is another dimension, then time was created with the big bang when everything was. there is no such thing as before the universe - it is pointless asking what came before the big bang, as for there to be a before, there must be a time, and if time was created with the big bang then... its a bit like asking what is outside the universe, when the universe contains everything and so cannot have an outside. if you get me...Edited by: billyloner

[motorhead]

Does anyone here remember what it was like before they were born?............. that is what it is like when you are dead.

[bubaloo]

i've thought about this for a long time, and the most logical thing to me(it ties in with a lot of my other philosophical theories, which i don't really want to write out) is that time ceases, because time is based on memory, and memory based on the brain, but the experience itself is not a physical thing, and beneath everyone's individual minds and memories, is completely the same. so my answer is that nothing happens after death, because time ceases. however, consciousness keeps on going(at different times, in different people), which is essentially like still being alive. a unified-consciousness sort of thing, i guess, in which memory and the brain drowns out our perception of unification. but once it's killed, we "become" someone else, sort of like reincarnation, but not as linear. we "become" everyone else, as we currently are, but without the limits that our individual mind has on us. this is a really crappy explanation, and i wish i write it out better. i don't know, though, i've never died before, that i can recall anyway.

[whitespider]

When you die your ghost form is lifted up, you aren taken into another
body. Either in this universe, depending on your actions, or another.



Your actions on this planet are forming a path, for better and for
worse. Every action is a choice, every choice is a future reality.
Earth is only a planet, we are ants, and ants are our ants, ants also
have smaller ant like creatures living on them, on every level, there
are a infinate sub levels, the only thing that makes our level
significant is a base level of choice based on known actions. Wrong
choice.



God is not a mean bastard, he just wants us to work our shit out, get
over our desire to hate, to have sex, to think in this way.



Love.

[Creeping Death]

I don't belive that there is an "all mighty" god. God is nothing but another form of control. All religions revolve around one or several beings that have control over humans and the universe. And you have to "act" according to what the gods tell you to "score points" wich decide if you go to heaven or hell.

This is impossible. We are born against our will. Thats what life is according to religions. It is the exact same thing as being thrown into a hockey game without having any saying in it, and having to make a bunch of goals to "win". I do not belive at all that what we do or our destiny is pre decided. ALL beings are all-mighty, if there is even such a thing as a "being". After all, we cant know if something "exists" or not because we don't know what existence is.

Everything in the universe/dimension/conciousness is one. When you die, you move on. You can't know where, but i think that you move on to a completely different dimension and perception. Like the wildest acid trip that anyone has ever had.

Just a completely different "now". Maybe a place where such concepts as "place" and "now" dont exist. Maybe you just fly through the universe.

Haven and hell, god, a huge game of life that you are thrown into and forced to participate against your will, all bullshit.

All creatures are free to do what they want, when they want, where they want. Society, "god", and its rules are the only thing that limits our potential to excercise that freedom.

So you see, rules and limitations are a human concept. Not a celestial or universal one. Wich is why god is nothing but a form of control.

[Nature Boy]

I think death could be like the ultimate LSD trip, good or bad.

Recent scientific research indicates that just before death, massive amounts of psychadelic chemicals leak from the brain causing surreal images of either complete bliss, or ultimate hell.

This may well explain why people with near-death experiences see things they relate to religion.

After the trip though, there won't be any heaven and hell in my opinion being an atheist. It will just spell the end of your existence where you simply cease to be, much like before you are born.

[Mezza]

I dont really believe in any god myself, but it would be swell if there were some form of life after death. I'd like to believe that at least our energy carries on - there's got to be something to the idea of a life force, or a soul.


The universe is too vast and mankind knows so little - I guess Ill just have to wait till that day comes and hope for the best!.





Mezza

[uqlfy]

Most people would agree that we as humans are self aware and have many capabilities related to that function.

I think it safe to say that the major consensus holds that once dead
you have no influence on the collective consensual reality. So that
being the case does it really matter if you retain some kind coherent
structure of being? I mean really if I die and am nothing more than
organic mush so what? If I die and there is some great beyond well I
really dont think my "corporeal life" is going to be the most pressing
concern for me right then.



What Im saying is it isnt very important to me what happens when I
die,Im absolutely gonna get to find out one day and Id rather wait till
then thank you very much. Its much more important to me what happens
when I "live" then what happens when I "die".

[Unsolved]

You know what i think. What if it all is a big joke? What if death really isn't any big deal. What if it was the start of your real life? I don't think the lights go out and you just die. There has to be more to it. I mean why would we be here in the first place? I think that you go to just another dimention or something of that sort. This definetly a good question and I'm sure everyone has an opinion depending on what faih/religion or background you come from.

[Nicaine]

I've always suspected that what happens when we die is this: We go on living, not knowing that we died. In other words, life is a wheel... just because we seem to notice a sudden change of state when others die, doesn't mean the same thing happens when we do. For all I know, I may have died 15 or 20 times already. Or a million.

I know that doesn't make much sense, but I think life just goes on and on until spiritually transcended. Death is a mental concept nobody has ever experienced, I don't think it's something experienceable. It's an idea or a notion, just like life is.

Our physical bodies fool us almost completely. What exactly IS a physical body? It's an imaged location in memory. Does consciousness come from the brain, or does the brain exist as a concept in consciousness? Both? Neither? Chicken or egg...Edited by: Nicaine

[afromonkey]

We're all treating time as if it's a big stream of events, as if
there's a clear order to everything, but what if time isn't that
objective, just a way we have of seeing the world ? Would anything ever
end in that model?

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by RoboCop

a "soul" is just a made up word, one used by many
religions to make the idea of a after life more belivable. What makes
you think people have a soul? Everything you are is your brain, people
are nothing but a complex organism. And anything you say cannot prove
their is a spirit or energy that lives on past death.

And anything you say cannot disprove it.

[afromonkey]

Surely then that is a weakness - if you can't say anything to disprove
it, then how is it possible to make sense of getting it wrong, if
whatever evidence you give just goes to support the theory of a soul
existing?

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by afromonkey

Surely then that is a weakness - if you can't say anything to disprove
it, then how is it possible to make sense of getting it wrong, if
whatever evidence you give just goes to support the theory of a soul
existing?

Not sure what it is you mean? I never said all evidence just supports
the existence of a soul, I said that there is no evidence that clearly
and conclusively disproves the existence of a soul.

If that were my only basis for believing that there is something more
than it would be a weak foundation indeed. I cannot prove a childs
imaginary friend isnt real and yet based on my life experiences</span> I know its not.It is based on my life experiences</span> that I think there is</span> a soul,spirit.Akasa, afterlife, something.

Many of these experiences are of a internal nature which makes it hard
to offer them as proof to someone who has not had those experiences
themself. Its kinda like trying to describe what exactly tripping is to
someone whos never done it. No matter how well you describe it, until
they do it themselves they cant really understand.

</span>

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by afromonkey

We're all treating time as if it's a big stream of events, as if
there's a clear order to everything, but what if time isn't that
objective, just a way we have of seeing the world ? Would anything ever
end in that model?

If the universe is infinite then it holds an infinite number of
possibility. Therefore ultimately it would seem that anything that can
happen will</span> or already has. </span>Or is it all happening now?



No energy is ever lost it is simply changed to another form. If nothing
ends than nothing ever began. Eveything exists in state of constant
flux it is these changes when observed that give rise to time.

[Katiii]

wow havent been in this one in a while.... im part of this organization we meet a lot, its a national thing NCACS.. ever heard of us, probably not. neways this years conference was in chicago (my hometown!) and my group was the host. ever hear of the 13 moon calander? well basically humans, and the TIME we have based our lives on is completely inaccurate. because of this we are not in tune with nature. we are actually de-evolving as a species. japan is discussing this by means of changing their entire calander. 13 months, 28 days each. there is actually 13 moons something or others that matches up things so perfectly. we are 70% water. the earth is 70% water. the moon pulls the tides. we ar part of this. this isnt just some theory bullshit its proven scientifical theories. scientists are blown away. our countries education system is lacking the most important knowledge humans should have. everyday has its own galactic signature. however it is important to note that everything has already happened. read the poem "burnt norton" by t.s. eliot... im not a big poet freak but this one was true. theres so much to learn about this i have only knicked it... anyone?

[afromonkey]

Is the idea of a soul existing able to be proved wrong - could there be any evidence against it?



Katiii - Do you have any links/sources do to with this theory of your society?


Edited by: afromonkey

[Katiii]

oh my god theres infinitly many web pages... i wouldnt choose only one, just go to google and type in 13 moon calender... its the ancient myan calander actually... the existence of free will is the foundation of the upcoming argument for the existence of the soul. But there are some people who believe the existence of free will is only an illusion, and instead our actions are determined by prior causes


Natural Processes
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Inner Brain States</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER> Mental and Physical Actions......... compared to</CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<CENTER>Natural Processes Outside Our Control</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Inner Brain States</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Mental and Physical Actions</CENTER></CENTER>

[daeron]

in tune with nature?wtf?no offence ,but no half learned theory like this,no matter how eloquent you be will ever hold water.This is just like scientologist shit,you(not you as You,but yknow what i mean)takesome sci fact,and weave a stupid halfass theory/ideology/belief/whatever.EDUCATION FIRST,than you can go into those no way to prove-ad infinitum-half educated discussions.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


facts:the mayan calendar is more accurate than the one we have,but that is a administration thing.Yes currently the 13 month calendar is more accurate.But that is cause the day is not 24hrs long but something like 24.3 or 24.2hrs,the earth slows down so in a few thousand yrs the day will be ~25hrs long,etc.


also as for the causality issue:there is one problem with humans they like shortcuts.That means when someone conceived the idea of natural causality (s)he(and others) took it as a dogma,and tried to explain everything with it.Nothing is simple,and cant be explained by only one or 2-3 theories.


The universe is so complex that jumping to conclusions takes away that little of "free will" you would like to posses.

[sg43]

Id have to agree, being atheist and not believing in the "spiritual realm", when you die its over...IMHO, just being in a pretty bad car accident I value my life alot more and try to be very careful now.

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by Katiii

&amp ;nbs p;
&a mp;n bsp;
Natural Processes
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Inner Brain States</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center> Mental and Physical Actions......... compared to</center>
<center></center>
<center></center>
<center>
<center>Natural Processes Outside Our Control</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Inner Brain States</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Mental and Physical Actions</center></center>

Interesting but what isnt clear to me is whether the natural processes

in the first example given are inside our control?</span>



Also does this model take into account the reciprocal effects of
actions on the physical towards the effects on the mental and vice versa?



While I do agree that naturally occuring cycles and forces can have a
strong impact on human psyche I think that the importance, in
this case, of these effects is greatly overstated.</span> They strike me as much the same folklore as the full moon causing insanity.

Edited by: uqlfy

[Diego]

Complicated issue ...


Matter and energy transforms, do not end its existence. I agree, but consciuosness and soul is not made out of matter and energy.


To die is to change our consciusness and to finish the relationship of this consciousness with our matter/energy in the physical world.


When we die, consciousness changes to an unknown state, and matter/energy stay in this physical world. So, our building blocks (physical and non physical) stay in the universe, but not related anymore. This relationship between consciousness and matter/energy is "life", the end of this relationship is "death", but the parts in this relationship stay and transform.


In thermodinamics, the matter and enegy changes but doesn´t disappear. Every time matter/energy is used (is transformed) a part of it is not available anymore. It stays in the physical universe, but not "useful" to our purposes. This is the concept of "free energy".


Our matter and energy will be part of other objects, living and non living, but this does not mean our "life" keeps going, we will be very death. Matter that belonged to other living creatures builds up our bodies, and this doesn´t mean these creatures live within us.


From our point of view, with our current tools (reasoning, language, knowledge, etc.) it is not possible to define what will happen. We have a very narrowed concept of counsciousness. The ideas and concepts of what will happen do not fit in our brains. The way our consciousness will change can not be imagined or defined with our reasoning.


The whole reality, the total reality, is something very different than our current counsciousness senses.


Is there a reason to struggle to know and to worry about something we will never be able to understand? From my reason, I think we should not invest time in this issue, don´t waste our time. From my feelings this is something we should explore and study.


Somedrugs and experiences help to understand how limited our consciousness is during our life. Some drug experiences open doors to new understanding, concepts not possible to "grab" from a normal state of mind.


I belive in reincarnation. I belive in the trascending of our consciousness/soul.


Since I tried Ketamine, I am convinced of the nonphysical world and nonphysical beings. I am convinced of other existence after our physical existence.

[uqlfy]

Another interesting thought..... Perhaps whan we die time loses
meaning. We live by changing. The concept of change relies on
time,yesterday today tommorow. Death is perhaps a static state,
where there is no change because there is only now. No change means no time. No time means no
life,at least as it means to us. So in a since when we die we are freed
from the concept of time. This is just a thought not what I feel is
exactly true but maybe a step in the right direction.
Edited by: uqlfy

[Katiii]

diego wrote : "When we die, consciousness changes to an unknown state, and matter/energy stay in this physical world. So, our building blocks (physical and non physical) stay in the universe, but not related anymore. This relationship between consciousness and matter/energy is "life", the end of this relationship is "death", but the parts in this relationship stay and transform."


we must learn that matter is energy. inside of every atom there is a vaccuum. NOTHING... energy is flying around... in different patterns and speeds depending on the element. this is not some theory bs its blowing our scientists mind. think about this... how old are the science books students are studying? dont you think there is shit being dicovered everyday? of course. shit that would whhhhooooshhhhhh blow your fuckin mind. i go to a school that is dedicated to educating the most up to date facts. one very very important thing to learn DAERON , is that before you learn, you should UNLEARN. live outside of your skin. you is not really inside of your head... you are radiating