Drug info - LSD25 & The Clear Light: What, Where, What?

[Panthers007]

In this thread I would like to start a discussion on the ineffable (thanks Aldous Huxley). The concept of the "Clear Light of the Void" comes up when animals who had access to pure LSD discuss the effects. So I am asking you, humble readers, to try to explain what the "Clear Light" is.

I will begin by quoting Aldous Huxley: "To describe the ineffable is impossible."

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent question to advance the forum.

[Lobsang]

Well I thought it would be beneficial to post what someone who attempted to put the highest levels into words. This is what Leary says bascially about the highest two levels. I beleive Leary approximates some truth based on what SWIM has told me about his experience with ultra high dose LSD. But certainly Leary is not God and has faults and slips. With that in mind. First Leary describes a "Neurogenetic Circut" as below. From one of SWIM's "trip reports" he said...

SWIM said...
"Then I stood up walked to the center of the field and looked at my friend who was also tripping at a high level. I smiled and rose my hands above my head. My friend said "Don't do it". In a defiant manner I said "Yes". And clapped my hands together above my head. As soon as I did it I was instantly shooting through the universe not bound by time or space. I also remember being in a state of pure mental orgasm. I could see generations upon infinite generations both backwards in time for infinity and forwards in infinity. There was no such thing as time. The next day I found out that when I clapped my hands together my friend saw me dissappear and in his mind die. The whole forest turned to a wasteland of burned embers. All life was gone."


Leary says: (Wiki)
The Neurogenetic Circuit allows access to the genetic memory contained in DNA. It is connected to memories of past lives, the Akashic Records, and the collective unconscious, and allows for essential immortality in humans. This circuit first appeared among Hindu and Sufi sects in the early first millennium. This circuit is stimulated by LSD, and Raja Yoga. (Robert Anton Wilson called this circuit The Morphogenetic Circuit.) (Leary)

When SWIM perceived the infinate generations he was highly accelerated. Too accelerated to "Plug" into any individual one to see what it was. At the time SWIM perceived these generations as "past lives". 25 Years later SWIM is unclear. Perhaps they represent generations of neurological development all locked up in SWIM's nervous system. But in any case perhaps this is not so important. SWIM does know that we are very very old. Perhaps the concept of personal reincarnation is the assignment of known reality to the perception of millions of generations of evolution of the nervous system. Maybe and maybe not...



And then Leary said the highest circut is:

"Leary explains that at the Neuroatomic level the basic energies which comprise all structure in the universe are available for management: "The metaphysiological contelligence constructs atoms, DNA chains, molecules, neurons; sculpts, designs, architects all forms of matter by manipulating nuclear particles and gravitational force fields"(Info 129). The "Neuroatomic Contelligence" no longer needs bodies, neurons, and DNA designs. It is a "metaphysiological brain." According to Leary, this metaphysiological contelligence is the Higher Intelligence (God?) which created life and the DNA. It is the entire "cosmic brain" (just as the DNA helix is the local brain guiding planetary evolution)."

SWIM has no words to describe this concept. The word that comes to mind for him is "FUSION".

Palmer said "There is a Universal Intelligence in all matter constantly giving to the matter all of it's properties and thus maintaines it in existence". SWIM has been studying the concept of the "unified field" which is described by some as being a field of intelligence. As SWIM understands it the entire universe may come from this field. Everything is the field. If this is true then the highest level is to put away the matter(nervous system) and fuse with ourselves without material filters.

SWIM knows this seems very disconnected but it is a very hard subject to tackle.

(Just prior to "fusion" everything was broken into little blocks--Tiny little blocks. The blocks could be taken apart or fiitted together. The blocks had a tendency to structure and pattern themselves when placed together SWIM thinks)

This is damn confusing!

[Heretic.Ape.]

Monkey says it reminds him of Sat-Chit-Ananda (being-consciousness-bliss) or Atmic Light described in Vedantic philosophy.
The pure light of consciousness laid bare and the all encompassing ecstasy involving perfect satisfaction, full body/mind orgasm, and the exuberant pixie sense that you know something beyond words and mind--a gnosis reserved for gods.
Indescribable beauty and a feeling that life itself was only to lead to this point. Yum.

[Panthers007]

"...damn confusing" is right. But if you're not with Dr. Tim - you are expelled from the Margarine-Palace that was Millbrook. I'll be back later to issue Bongo & Associates recount of Clear-Light experiences. I'll have to collate the notes first.

All other takers, please continue the escapade. I swear it is possible to describe the ineffable. Just a pain in the cosmic butt....

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

". I swear it is possible to describe the ineffable. Just a pain in the cosmic butt....

From Lobsang's other post: (You know you have problems when you start quoting yourself!)

"Carlos Castaneda made the illustration of a table. On the table were salt shaker, pepper, ketchup, plate. He may have said that God was the tablecloth. I forget. But the point is that what people see as God is on their reality table. We have to understand that there are levels of truth that are not on our table. In order to understand them one must move off the table. That is a very difficult thing to do. We have started on the table and been assembling the items on the table our entire lives. So all of our "insights" and deductions and science operate on the table. If we ever get off the table it is only for a moment and that momment cannot be understood when we are at the table. You cannot eat soup with a fork if there is no spoon set at the table. And chances are you will never think of picking up the bowl and slurping your soup from it. Not only would we not think of doing it. If we did we might not be able to bring ourselves to do it lest we get thrown out of the restaurant for bad manners. WE are conditioned by our parents that drinking from the bowl is improper.

At the most we can have flash glimpses of truth. But they are like diving into the water and swimming around with our breath held. We can look at the wonders under the water for a moment but we must come up for air. When breathing again we have but a memory of the dive. When we get off the table for a moment we are immediately returned to it. Ultimately we are not off the table we are simply looking at what is not on it for a moment. But we are still influenced by and are part of the items on the table.

If we are ever allowed off the table it is only for a couple of brief moments in our lives. But still those moments will be rationalized and understood by the table we sit at. If one was to stay off the table in perspective but attempted to physically remain on it that would be like trying to pour water on the table with no glass to contain it. Without the glass the water could not be part of the table. It only can when it is in a glass."

Lastly. Warning: Ron Hubbard, the inventer of "Scientology" told people that if they read certain high level documents revealing the secrets of the universe they would get pneumonia. I hope we will not get pneumonia from talking about this stuff!

Lobsang added 6 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Panthers007

" But if you're not with Dr. Tim - you are expelled from the Margarine-Palace that was Millbrook.

SWIM would have smiled and agreed with Dr Tim to get the Sandoz

[Songcycle67]

SWIM:

All matter begins to lose its meaning at the first sign of the onset of a clear light dose. The world around you begins to fragment into tiny mirrors reflecting mirrors reflecting the world around you. As these begin to break away into more and more mirrors, the mass of bright kaleidoscopic imagery before you begins to "meld" together as one coherent image. This image for him was a snaking, tapestry of the external world, burning white hot like coals. It even began to "burn" his eyes. As the heat increases, the image in front of you turns from white with, sort of black and yellow glowing, morphing embers into a solid sheet of white. With eyes open the void does not disappear. The entire world is engulfed in the fog of oneness. There is no it or they. He is now a hole in the universe through which the universe looks at itself. As he goes deeper and deeper, there is no hole. There is only the fabric of the fabric. There is no thought, there are no images preceeding thought.

There is only this part of the whole, seeing itself as the whole for the first time. A blanket of indistinguishable atoms.





So basically that's his rambling, confused interpretation of the times he has seen this happen. Glad to see a topic about this.

[podge]

The clear white light is a trademark of experiencing pure consciousness, it can be attained in many ways. Swim thinks experiencing the clear white light would be better without chemical aids if possible. The words " bliss , infinite , nirvana" come to mind.

[zera]

As someone who has tried high doses of LSD, but never got to this level swim has some questions. First what are the typical dosages to reach this point? And I guess the duration of this? Second would someone mind giving a pure sensory-based description with the religious/mystical/cosmological imagery taken out?

No offense to people who feel this way, its simply that swim is very non-religious, non-mystical and left-brained and has never really felt anything like God or "universal intelligence" or collective unconscious. He is just trying to understand the experience and these reference points don't really mean much to him.

Finally how would you compare it to other completely submersive drug experiences? Mainly what swim is thinking here is DMT, but he supposes salvia, ketamine, etc. might be good reference points as well.

Thanks!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Honest question

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by podge

The clear white light is a trademark of experiencing pure consciousness, it can be attained in many ways. Swim thinks experiencing the clear white light would be better without chemical aids if possible. The words " bliss , infinite , nirvana" come to mind.

OK. In theroy SWIM agrees. But the truth is that it takes a very very long time if it can happen. Also the brain is wired with receptors for the molecules. It is like a lock and key. And to be frank. SWIM seriously doubts that many people can get there without sacraments.

Also the true peak states come only once or a few times in a lifetime. That is all that is needed. If one trains for a lifetime they might get there without the molecular keys. The keys permit one to not have to give up their life and dreams for something that they may not get without them.

SWIM will take acid every time over a Temple.

Lobsang added 24 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

As someone who has tried high doses of LSD, but never got to this level swim has some questions. First what are the typical dosages to reach this point?

SWIM says Around 1000micrograms

And I guess the duration of this?

SWIM can't say. Time is destroyed at this level. Time does not apply. But SWIM suspects the flash is relatively short. At the high doses it takes time for the world to collapse and then to restructure. But as far as the peak state it is hard to say as time is not relative there. That is kind of the hallmark of the experience.

Second would someone mind giving a pure sensory-based description with the religious/mystical/cosmological imagery taken out?

No offense to people who feel this way, its simply that swim is very non-religious, non-mystical and left-brained and has never really felt anything like God or "universal intelligence" or collective unconscious. He is just trying to understand the experience and these reference points don't really mean much to him.

No offense taken. SWIM thinks SWIy has to take the high dose acid. SWIM would be curious how SWIy articulates the experience without sounding a little "Universal". Perhaps go to Youtube and watch John Hagelin PhD on consciousness parts one and two. He talks a lot about physics.

Finally how would you compare it to other completely submersive drug experiences? Mainly what swim is thinking here is DMT, but he supposes salvia, ketamine, etc. might be good reference points as well.

SWIM prefers the clarity of the acid.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice response, thanks for answering the questions!

[DonPeyote]

Ahhh.... The Clear Light of the Void.

How to explain. I can almost still see it.

You notice a light, so pure, shining. Wow, look at that - It takes you by surprise. It takes you - The light grows exponentially, filling the universe, then exquisitely explodes. You die into it, become it: the luminous void. So utterly beautiful. Time stops, you see eternity. Everything is revealed and makes sense. Past and Future, Right and Wrong, Black and White, Up and Down, Yin and Yang, all opposites merge into source, into the cosmic dance of energy, the flux of the shining Void...

DP

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post.

[Samadhi]

I believe it is the combination of all colors in the experience. much like a Near Death Experience. I believe that it is the brain basically skipping and getting grip on reality.

My lab-cat has had only one experience with the white light phenomenon and it was due to a very stupid accident. Jello cubes were dropped with LSD and given out at a party this furry feline was at. Kitty likes jello... ate a half tray of jello accumulating to 12 hits of VERY clean and powerful LSD25.

The little feller spent the rest of the night in a pool swimming in a sea of intense and wonderful psychedelic soup and had the white light experience about 2 hrs after ingesting...

The kitty never fully came home. He still fears that pool/

[Panthers007]

I'll not tread on mystical considerations if possible. Bongo was caged and is screaming to be let out to type. I must force him back into his vintage 1969 Barca-Lounger Recliner (Sears & Roebuck)...

Bongo returned home from a gathering with his lady, and a gent of the male persuasion. They had already had a few drinks and some of that vile weed. Yet they wanted to stay up and talk. It was around 11:00pm. So they went hunting into the icefields of Greenland. Eureka!

There lay the Holy Grail. A bottle of Sandoz Labs LSD25 with a ground-glass syringe attached. It was graduated to one milliliter. So the intrepid three proceeded to draw-up one milliliter of the dark-brown rum in the bottle. The assumption was this would be one dose. Oops!! Later - much - it was discovered this was 3,000mcg. Each. Done deal. Over the lips & past the gums - look out stomach! Here it comes!

The voyagers made their way to a second-story bedroom and lay about on pillows and fluffy chairs. Not knowing what was about to befall them. Then - The Walls - Melted - Into - Nothing. There was nothing to melt into. It was gone. Bongo stared quizzically about and muttered the immortal words: "Oops! I think we took too much! Oh well!"

There was no transition period for Bongo from 'Oops' to a blazing white light. The White Light was all Bongo could see. It was his entire awareness in the visual cortex. The only emotional response was a feeling of bliss. I have asked Bongo to elucidate on this 'bliss' thing, but he emphatically maintains that bliss is all. White Light & Bliss. And this gets a bit involved to drag from the Ape. What set this apart from anything else...?

There was nothing else than the White Light blazing away. It was not hot. It was not cold. Fundamental concepts, such as hot/cold, did not exist. How long was this going on for? There was no concept of time. Where was this? There was no concept of space. It was all there was. Heavy? No. Light? No. No concepts of anything existed other than White Light. And bliss.

What ever Bongo was, it/he/she/it became aware of a color. It was far off on some sort of horizon. It was green, he recalls now that he has reference points. It passed by way far away. Then another color flashed by (?). Then another. All still on the shore of the White Light. Spatial logistics were beginning to assemble in Bongo's something(?). And more of these what looked like meteors went by. Then one came straight at Bongo's location. Location as an incorporeal awareness. It hit. It contained a thought.

The thought was the word "I." Then another arrived on target: "Am." Then a third: "I." They were strung together. I am I. That was Bongo. Then the world started to return piece-by-piece. It was not until around 12:00 noon that Bongo and his party made their way to the downstairs of the house and begin to try to speak with each other. Then another day had to pass before they could compare notes. White Light all around.

White Light has no time, says Bongo. No space. No gravity. And only bliss as it's feeling. This reaction, from all accounts found so far, seems to be specific to high doses of LSD25. Possibly ALD52. Not on any other psychedelic such as mescaline or psilocybin. Caution is advised: Don't try to get there with other molecules, future psyche-monkeys. That high a dose might kill off the traveler.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Poetic description

[Lobsang]

All this talk is making SWIM want to go back in time. He has no friends with LSD so he could not get it. And also his mind is to ruined with demons of things that have happened in his life that are not resolved. So even if he could get LSD it would be a bad idea.

[Nebiro]

White Light has no time, says Bongo. No space. No gravity. And only bliss as it's feeling. This reaction, from all accounts found so far, seems to be specific to high doses of LSD25. Possibly ALD52. Not on any other psychedelic such as mescaline or psilocybin. Caution is advised: Don't try to get there with other molecules, future psyche-monkeys. That high a dose might kill off the traveler.

I may be wrong, but I think that you're wrong. With only 4 grams of mushrooms in his body, SWIM experienced something he think could be qualified of White Light: He found himself out of his body in a timeless and spaceless intense light. There was also an intense noise.

It stopped after only 5 seconds though. SWIM thinks that it happened suddenly because his mind was open, but that it stopped suddenly because he wasn't high enough or experienced enough with psychedelics at this time to let himself go completely, and his reaction was to hide from the blinding light.

SWIM also experienced something similar, but less intense with a combo of 200 mg Ketamine and 2 N20 balloons. He would say that he saw the White Light, but wasn't floating in it, while he was definitly surrounded by it on the short experienced he lived with mushrooms.

[Panthers007]

While I believe that SWIM had a very intense experience on mushrooms, as many have, I don't think it quite hits the same level. There was noise? Interesting. Bongo says it was silent where whatever he was/went became nothingness. There was a time-sense? Nope. No time existed.

This gets more intriguing! Keep the ideas/experiences rolling in. I, for one, have never seen this topic covered before.

[Nebiro]

There was noise?

In fact I would compare it to a didgeridoo that someone would have connected to an ampli and added a lot of bass. It was half drone, half vibrations.

There was a time-sense?

Well, there wasn't any time-sense for the short time I was "there".

SWIM saw/heard/felt/tasted a lot of things while tripping on mushrooms, but he has never been able to enter this state for more than a couple of seconds.

I also completely lost contact with my body, felt dissociated from it.

Are you still in your body when you are in the LSD's White Light?

SWIM will soon get his hand on a liquid LSD vial....He hopes to experience enough to reach this state.

[Nature Boy]

A saucepan to the head ought to get one there.

[Heretic.Ape.]

Monkey has also experienced this with psilocybin. No space, no time, only infinite/timeless bliss and light followed by the "I am" thing that bongo mentioned. A trip report can be found here:

Death / rebirth: Experiment with magick + p. cubensis

[fnord]

@nag What causes a clear light experiance,is it high doses combined with proper set/setting/tripper? or is it a random thing thats more likely with high doses? Do you think that using the methods desribed in ¨the psychadelic experiace¨ by Dr leary Dr metzner and i think it was Dr apert? or was it dr pepper? would help one to experiance this clear light?

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

A saucepan to the head ought to get one there.

What brand works best? Would a teflon coated pan work or should i try cast iron?

[Jatelka]

The flamingo is fascinated by this and would love to hear of others who have had this experience

She has had multiple high dose LSD experiences, and, while she has experienced ego death/floating free/at one with the universe/various feelings of mystical euphoria/ecstacy/spiritual experience (and indeed, a time when the universe reversed, difficult to articulate) she has never experienced the light as it is described here.

[Lobsang]

It was postulated by a neurologist many many tears ago that if a person took high dose LSD continusly they would eventually fuse all of their nervous system. The entire nervous system would be a free flow. The brain, spinal cord, sympathetic, parasympathetic and periferal nervous system would loose individual identity and merge. There would be no inhibition but simple synaptic free flow. I have some reason for inserting this statement at this point but I really canno pin point why I did.

[podge]

Swim also thinks its possible with with other drugs, swim has experienced the white light fully with Ketamine and in a sense with salvia, but only partially experienced it with LSD.

[Panthers007]

It doesn't seem to be specific with ALL people who have taken high-doses of LSD25. Bongo & Co. all had the same experience of White-Light at 3,000mcg. Yet Bongo is aware of another case off a MUCH higher dose with drastically different effects:

A young kid - 14 years old - accidentally ingested 6.75mg (6,750mcg) of very pure LSD25. This found him aware of being a garden-slug crawling across the ground, leaving a trail of his entrails behind his non-humanoid form. The result was several days in a hospital being shot-up with Thorazine before being released to his parents. He was no worse, or better, from this experience. He reported no "White-Light" from this faux pas.

So does White-Light depend on a set & setting? Could be. Bongo never found out what set & setting was involved in the devolution to a garden-slug.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

It doesn't seem to be specific with ALL people who have taken high-doses of LSD25. Bongo & Co. all had the same experience of White-Light at 3,000mcg. Yet Bongo is aware of another case off a MUCH higher dose with drastically different effects:

A young kid - 14 years old - accidentally ingested 6.75mg (6,750mcg) of very pure LSD25. This found him aware of being a garden-slug crawling across the ground, leaving a trail of his entrails behind his non-humanoid form. The result was several days in a hospital being shot-up with Thorazine before being released to his parents. He was no worse, or better, from this experience. He reported no "White-Light" from this faux pas.

So does White-Light depend on a set & setting? Could be. Bongo never found out what set & setting was involved in the devolution to a garden-slug.

Well seeing white light is pretty cool. But devolving to a garden slug is awesome. Two people devolving to garden slugs and mateing is even better.

Reputation Comments on this post:

lol

[podge]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

So does White-Light depend on a set & setting? Could be.

The white light is more likely at high doses but there is no way to guarantee it even in the right setting, it may or may not happen.