Dose - starting small?

[sinking]

Hi, just thought I'd post about a recent dream,

SWIM is curious to try LSD, but worries about mental risk. SWIM has unlimited supply, so would it be a good idea for SWIM to start very small, e.g. tiny fraction of tab, to find out how SWIM is effected, and then work up to a normal dose?

Is the risk of problems decreased at a lower dosage? And would this be a good way to decide whether to do a larger dose?

Thanks all,
Sinking

[phillylocal]

I'm sure SWIY's read pertinent trip-reports here, and on erowid before embarking on the wonderful quest of LSD.

SWIM would recommend not taking fractions of a tab, especially because tabs are often not equally saturated in all parts, and a fraction of a dose will not affect SWIY the same as a threshold/"full strength" dose. One tab should not "blow your mind" so SWIM suggests taking one tab on a nice day/afternoon, as day-tripping can be a little too "confrontational" to some.

The main problems that SWIY could encounter would be the same (to an extent, of course). If SWIY has a family history of schizophrenia or is predisposed to such problems, LSD can be dangerous, and it is advised to stay well away. Also, other medications that SWIM might be taking can affect LSD. For example, lithium, SSRI's, and MAOI's are not recommended.

SWIY's best bet is to find another swimmer/friend who has experience with LSD, and can quantitavely tell SWIY how potent SWIY's tab's are (the best way to do this, is through experience). SWIM has had some tabs that looked exactly the same but were very different potentcies.

SWIM is glad that you are embarking on this wonderful path to enlightenment, and hopes that you will share your experiences and questions in the future!! We're here to help!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Sound advice.

[Lobsang]

My cat says that chances are that based on what he has heard doses today are relatively small. Of course there can be exceptions. My cat would not recommend breaking up hits for a number of reasons. The cat feels that he would just stop worrying and jump in the pool. As the water is usually just right.

My cat smiles and says "To be young with an unlimited supply of LSD". He says that is "PUUUUUUUUUR-fect"

[RaverHippie]

The problems put to LSD would probably manifest themselves at whatever dose SWIY takes (they're very unlikely as it is.) Just take a tab, have people there with you that are experienced and have a good time.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM has seen tabs floating around as potent as 500ug and as weak as 60ug. If SWIY thinks paranoia about dose would be an issue, SWIM thinks SWIY should have an experienced LSD user try it to estimate dose. Then SWIM would recommend no more than 150ug for a first time experience if SWIY is susceptible to anxiety and paranoia.

[phillylocal]

holy moley. 500ug...that's some intense doses...SWIM's heard of big blotter being that saturated, but never a tab...shit.

Yeah, if any swimmer jumped into the 500ug pool first time around the block (and was susceptible to anxiety), they'd probably black out....happened to my pet flamingo one time.

[Strangeness]

Yes, 500mcg would be an unusually large amount for a blotter hit...

But dose estimation for LSD is largely pointless IMO. Too many people throw around microgram figures based on what their dealer tells them (amazing how many dealers get their stuff directly from layers or, better yet, chemists) or from some arbitrary knowledge they think they have of what type of experience a given dosage should produce. Though there are certainly some people out there that do have a clue and do know what they are talking about. I'm not one of them. So I don't even pretend to know any reliable number figures.



Sinking, if you're really and truly worried about being overwhelmed by the experience, try half a hit. Otherwise you'll just go into it thinking "oh god oh god did I take too much am I gonna die oh god I'm gonna die." And that's no good. If you're confident, just go for a whole one and you'll be fine.

But would not recommend diving in with more than one the first time.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM says:

It's actually not too hard to estimate approximate dose if you read all the trip reports available from Sandoz and other clinical institutions that did intensive studies on these drugs. They do quite specific things at certain doses, even if they illicit different "internalized" reactions in the user. If nothing else it gives you a baseline, and really its your only option if you have no contact with the cook.

Dealers always lie. Another good way to know the potency of the stuff you're getting is to ask the dealer and then divide it by two.

[GentlyWeeps]

Originally Posted by songcycle67

SWIM says:

It's actually not too hard to estimate approximate dose if you read all the trip reports available from Sandoz and other clinical institutions that did intensive studies on these drugs. They do quite specific things at certain doses, even if they illicit different "internalized" reactions in the user. If nothing else it gives you a baseline, and really its your only option if you have no contact with the cook.

Dealers always lie. Another good way to know the potency of the stuff you're getting is to ask the dealer and then divide it by two.

Would you happen to have a link to those studies? Swim is interested in reading them.

[Panthers007]

Bongo Research & Associates, Ltd. did extensive studies using Sandoz Labs LSD25. What they found was that 20mcg (micrograms - Google) was a threshold dose - as was considered a possible anti-depressant. The purple pills named Delysid* from Sandoz were so labeled and formulated. Further tests corroborated the findings that 100mcg. was a dosage that would elicit the full spectra of what we now call a psychedelic trip.

Each person had a threshold dose that would render one incapacitated as they communicated with God, the Devil, alien civilizations, etc. The ballpark for this level is around 400mcg. Most researchers found that 1,000mcg (1 milligram) was about right to send one to "The Clear-Light of the Void." What's that? Go looking for references. LOL.


* Delysid came from D as in dextro-rotationary Lysergic Acid

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting findings.

[phillylocal]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

The purple pills named Delysid* from Sandoz were so labeled and formulated.

Sandoz also distributed a liquid form that seemed to be for "injection," or perhaps trans-dermal/"mucus membrane absorbtion" (is there a word for that?).


SWIM doubts that they thought of blotter though!!! hehe.

[dr_haldol]

SWIM doubts that they thought of blotter though!!!

I'm not so sure about that.
I think they were the first to ingest blotters. Not with LSD, but when the time of Psilocybine came they ingested parts of their paper chromatography to see which fraction is psychoactive. So, in clear words: world's first blotters. Not LSD, but Psilocybine.

The Sandoz bottles were for intramuscular application, AFAIK.

[phillylocal]

Originally Posted by dr_haldol

I'm not so sure about that.
I think they were the first to ingest blotters. Not with LSD, but when the time of Psilocybine came they ingested parts of their paper chromatography to see which fraction is psychoactive. So, in clear words: world's forst blotters. Not LSD, but Psilocybine.

Ah, good to know, thanks!

The Sandoz bottles were for intramuscular application, AFAIK.[/quote]

ew...what an....ugly way to administer lsd...I know they used to do trials with intramuscular/intravenous dosing, but ugh..SWIM hates needles.

[dr_haldol]

ew...what an....ugly way to administer lsd...I know they used to do trials with intramuscular/intravenous dosing, but ugh..SWIM hates needles.

SWIM agrees with SWIY. p.o. is ok, but injections? Ugh...

[Songcycle67]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Bongo Research & Associates, Ltd. did extensive studies using Sandoz Labs LSD25. What they found was that 20mcg (micrograms - Google) was a threshold dose - as was considered a possible anti-depressant. The purple pills named Delysid* from Sandoz were so labeled and formulated. Further tests corroborated the findings that 100mcg. was a dosage that would elicit the full spectra of what we know call a psychedelic trip.

Each person had a threshold dose that would render one incapacitated as they communicated with God, the Devil, alien civilizations, etc. The ballpark for this level is around 400mcg. Most researchers found that 1,000mcg (1 milligram) was about right to send one to "The Clear-Light of the Void." What's that? Go looking for references. LOL.


* Delysid came from D as in dextro-rotationary Lysergic Acid

SWIM says:

^^^ those are very good basic approximations to judge from. I mean it's a little skimpy in the details, but definitely accurate. As for the articles and studies, all of the information I've read has come from actual published articles in the psychedelic review and other magazines that circulated while LSD was still legal. My older friends have original copies of some of these that are in really good condition (wonder what they would fetch?)

MAPS hosts a lot of the old clinical studies, but there's no way I'm digging through their site to find it. They're always a good starting place, though.

When you do find a really good objective clinical study, they tend to define very precisely both the internal and external experience at any given dose. It's just best to try to round up as many as possible so as to make it as un-biased as you can. One mustn't forget that the point of these studies was to find these things out.

They very much wanted to figure out what this drug does at what dose, as this information would've been absolutely critical in prescribing an ultra-potent psychedelic substance for certain conditions. Most of the literature out there is on point in this respect.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Most researchers found that 1,000mcg (1 milligram) was about right to send one to "The Clear-Light of the Void." What's that? Go looking for references. LOL.

Yes the 1000 microgram threshold would be about accurate. SWIM has experienced well in excess of this level one time. All matter is transended. Everything is transended. All reality was reduced to it's fundamental building blocks. But the experience was much deeper than that. Perhaps the word is Neuro-atomic fusion. But no the experience extends below the atomic level. Clear light....No..It really is not light. Oh Hell...The experience was life changing and more than profound. Perhaps it is not described much because there are no words for something that is not a "something" or a "concept" or "anything" at all. So yes SWIM has experienced the deepest secret of the universe and SWIM knows it in his bones. But SWIM will be damned if he can tell himself or anyone else what it is. All SWIM can tell anyone who is afraid of what will happen is that....

Do not be afraid....Everything will be OK!

[Panthers007]

Regards dosage information contained above from Bongo R.Inc - it followed the template from previous studies available. The previous studies were found to be accurate.

Of course there is more to be done. But nobody will EVER nail this down perfectly. We are speaking of psychedelics - not some painkiller or muscle-relaxant. I'd love to hear how a psychedelic would be prescribed...Psilocybin 20mg Orally as needed for loss of Religious Faith. Dr. Leary.....??

It's still a "Brave New World." After a 40+ year hiatus - let's see what we can find out about it.

[Panthers007]

Come on along, Lob. Here is a place to converse about this ineffable realm:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...699#post417699

[Songcycle67]

Did Bongo & co. do any research with pharm. czech? SWIM has always heard that it was better than even the stuff Sandoz was producing.

He has a great deal of doubt that it was detectably different, but many people are insistant on this. Anyone else have any reports/experiences with it?

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by songcycle67

Did Bongo & co. do any research with pharm. czech? SWIM has always heard that it was better than even the stuff Sandoz was producing.

He has a great deal of doubt that it was detectably different, but many people are insistant on this. Anyone else have any reports/experiences with it?

This is an interesting question. Is it in theroy possible that pharmaceutical grade LSD made in those early days varied in it's molecular content on a subtle level?