Ayahuasca visuals

[meth]

SWIM is planning on taking ayahuasca this weekend with a few friends. SWIM has read all the preparation and precautions neccessary for the aya consumption and has tried to read up on as many experience reports to get a rough idea on what to expect. As far as psychedelics go , SWIM has only tried LSD and Shrooms and has no experience with DMT in general.

The ayahausca recipe that will be used in this weeks session is banisteriopsis caapi + psychotria virdis.. what swim would like to know is if ayahuasca is compareable to lsd and shrooms in terms of 'mindfuck' .. and how intense are the visuals? (considering an average dose is taken)
SWIM has tried looking for aya experiences on this forum but is only finding smoked DMT experiences rather than aya consumption.. and all the aya reports dont include visual descriptions , but focus mainly on the retrospect of the experience.. so how visual does ayahuasca get?

[yosepi]

i wouldn't really be able to explain ayahuasca in a visual sense because it's primary hallucinogenic effect is more of physical hallucination. as in, you do receive visuals which ae very much in tune with threshold closed eyed dmt freebase trips.

to give you an idea though, if you have done mushrooms and have experienced heavy visuals on the shroomies you have to understand that mushrooms is actually very similar to dmt in the visual aspect in heavier doses.

so take your craziest mushroom trip, multiply it by about 10,000, add in some aliens, physical sensations of your body having physical objects moving in and out of you and complete loss of understanding physical reality, and you pretty much have aya...the visuals in aya are much more dreamlike in that the things you see feel very much as if they are real objects manifesting in front of you and not just shiny rotating geometric patterns.

at least that's my experience, and i've done it about four times, most of which were unsuccessful due to the vomiting factor.

be prepared to vomit....a lot.

hope i helped.

yosepi added 1 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

i apologize....i completely spaced on forum rules on that reply. it wont let me edit my response,

so please accept my apology for violating.

[meth]

Thanks a lot your answer has been very helpful ;D SWIM is now looking forward to the trip more than ever. I guess the purging is all part of the ayahuasca experience since most ppl that talk about actually go through it but with a positive attitute.. like a 'cleansing' proccess of your body and mind.

Thanks again for the reply

[69Ron]

You can avoid the nausea almost completely by using 200 mg of pure harmine (the main alkaloids in caapi) and 20-50 mg of DMT swallowed in a capsule. It's best to take the DMT 30 minutes after the harmine. The experience is almost identical to the plant based experience minus the horrible nausea.

The visuals are actually more correctly called visions because they are more like dreams than simple colorful fractal patterns as usually seen on DMT. With DMT alone full blown visions are rare. And when they do happen they are usually very fast and difficult to understand. With aya, the visions are complex, long lasting, and full of meaning, just like dreams. You're likely to see people, places, and things other than a bunch of colors. Usually there are meaningful short story lines in the visions. It's not a bunch of visual nonsense like DMT alone usually is.

[yosepi]

in response to your comparison of using harmaline along with freebase dmt in lieu of the actual traditional drink, from SWIM's experience there is a pretty large difference in the experience when done this way.

not discrediting your information, but pharmahuasca and ayahuasca are very much distinguishable experiences from one another. SWIM has done both, and SWIM prefers the traditional method, as SWIM feel it does not interfere so much with the spiritual aspect of the experience.

And in SWIM's experience, pharmahuasca is very much looked down upon by most aya users, even with the nausea factor eliminated.

This is an old an tired argument though, but again, in SWIM's experience....traditional aya is far superior, and purging can be a positive experience.

[69Ron]

True aya is definitely a little different from pure harmine. It does contain THH. And there are probably other unknown active chemicals yet to be discovered. SWIM knows that even harmine + THH is not exactly the same as aya, mostly because it lacks the horrid “purge”, which SWIM can honestly do without.

Many times SWIM had used pure harmine, pure harmaline, pure harmalol, pure THH, and SWIM had banisteriopsis caapi tea, peganum harmala tea, and even passionflower tea (which contains a little bit of the harmala alkaloids). SWIM had enough experience with these legal herbs and the harmala alkaloids to have some understanding of their differences in effects.

They are all slightly different from each other. Passionflower is mostly just sedating and an extremely weak MAOI. Peganum harmala is the strongest MAOI of the bunch but hard on the body and causes more mental confusion, but a properly made tea doesn’t make you purge unless you take too much of it. Banisteriopsis caapi is the most dreamy of the three but makes you quite sick to the stomach at normal doses. SWIM’s stomach does not like that plant. It’s not the harmine and the THH that’s making you sick. At normal doses, harmine and THH don’t make you sick. It’s some other poison in the vine that makes you sick.

SWIM prefers pure harmine and doesn’t much see the need to ingest a large amount of inactive plant matter. It’s SWIM’s opinion that there is little difference between taking real Banisteriopsis caapi tea and a capsule of harmine other than the fact that harmine is more stimulating, can be taken in a capsule with a glass of water so you don’t taste its horrible taste, and it doesn’t make you vomit your guts out (unless you OD on it).

SWIM is not a fan of making his body ill.

SWIM knows people call this a positive “purge”, but quite frankly there are people around who think that vomiting all over the place is completely disgusting. SWIM doesn’t believe in this positive “purge” idea. He believes that calling this a positive “purge” is just a mental trick to make people think that somehow vomiting all over the place is a good thing. He just doesn’t believe it and SWIM’s wife would hate seeing vomit all over the house. It’s disgusting. It smells bad. It makes your breath stink. Vomiting is the body’s way of getting rid of what it perceives as poison. Why someone would specifically try to make themselves vomit is beyond my understanding. The only time SWIM would ever want to vomit is if SWIM swallowed something that SWIM shouldn’t have swallowed in the first place. If SWIM’s body says “VOMIT NOW”, SWIM is going to vomit that crap up and think twice about ever ingesting it again. SWIM believes his body knows poison when it encounters it and is not about to allow any sort of belief system to interfere with his body’s own protective reactions to swallowing poising.

Well, that’s JUST SWIM’S OPINION. And I know many aya users don’t see it that way. This is an age old argument. You have those like SWIM that never ingest things that the body rejects, and some aya users who believe vomiting periodically is healthy. Such people will just have to agree to disagree.

Also, there’s the plant “spirit” idea. Some believe that the main reason harmine + THH doesn’t substitute for Banisteriopsis caapi is because you are missing the soul of Banisteriopsis caapi. I think this is a more valid argument than the “purge” idea. I do believe that all things have a soul. Banisteriopsis caapi must have a soul. I do. You do. Everything does. I’m not going to argue on this point. No one can prove or disprove that souls exist for me, you, or anything else. I will say this though. Simply believing that the plant has a soul will affect the experience. This phenomenon is called “set and setting” and was discovered many years ago when psychedelic research started in the west.

The “set and setting” of an individual is a very import aspect that can direct the type of experience one receives from psychedelic drugs. This is probably why, for SWIM, harmine alone produces effects almost identical to real aya. Because SWIM believes it can, therefore it does. While for others it does not. This is “set and setting” in action. Someone who believes harmine cannot produce effects almost identical to real aya will probably experience it that way because of the rules of “set and setting” taking effect. “Set and setting” is similar to the “placebo” concept. It’s all about the mind and how it wishes to perceive things to be. Read up on “Set and setting” and the “placebo” effect. The mind is really capable of making things appear different than they are, even without any drugs at all. “Set and setting” and the “placebo” effect are in effect all the time, psychedelic drugs and plants simply amplify these effects on the mind.

With all that said, harmine is the main active alkaloid in caapi, there is no argument there. SWIM honestly believes you can have a great purge free aya-like experience with just harmine, and that there’s no need for the other toxins found in caapi. Pure harmine is NOT 100% IDENTIAL to caapi tea. In SWIM’s opinion it’s better. There are minor differences. Caapi always makes SWIM feel nausea, and sometimes it makes him vomit. With harmine there is no nausea felt (unless you use too much). This is a major plus in SWIM’s book. The other difference is a lack of sedation. Caapi makes SWIM feel sedated, drugged. Harmine makes SWIM a little perky (unless SWIM uses large doses). The visuals are about the same. The intensity of the experience is about the same. The length of the experience is about the same. They take you to the same visual place pretty much. Either way you can experience full blown dreamlike visions. Both harmine and caapi are legal in most places around the world. They are all legal in SWIM’s area and easy to get.

There are authentic purgeless aya recipes out in the jungle that mix caapi with plants like Brugmansia suaveolens which contain scopolamine. These brews are VERY POWERFUL and don’t make you sick. The scopolamine blocks the bodies purge reaction to caapi. This is one true plant based aya that SWIM really likes. WOW. Great stuff. But go easy on the scopolamine additive plant. Only use just enough to block the nausea and NO MORE. Scopolamine is dangerous and SWIM doesn't think it's really a good idea to block the body's purge reaction so he doesn't take purgeless aya very often. Using pure harmine seems much more body friendly. SWIM only uses either pure USP grade or FCC grade (food grade) harmine, or extracts it himself so he knows what’s in it. He never uses technical grade. You should not put anything that is technical grade into your body!

69Ron added 13 Minutes and 33 Seconds later...

During SWIM’s first harmine based aya-like experiences which didn’t have anything added to it (no DMT), a woman visited SWIM from the spirit world. She sat next to SWIM on the bed for almost an hour. She was curiously watching SWIM. SWIM felt as though she was there to help guide the experience. Because the trip didn’t include DMT, the woman was hard to see, very faint, but definitely there. SWIM could feel her breathing and could feel the warmth of her body next to SWIM while SWIM laid back on the bed and went in and out of many different dreams. The dreams were all very complex, with lots of things going on. Not just a bunch of colors. These were like real dreams only SWIM was awake. It was a fantastic experience. The visions were not as bright as when DMT is added, but they were still very powerful. This was the first time SWIM tried pure harmine without any additives. SWIM didn’t know that you could have such an experience with just harmine alone. SWIM was quite surprised.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	great post, full of info
	Detailed, non-opinionated, fascinating post.

[yosepi]

SWIM also enjoys ayahuasca sans DMT, and agrees that it is also a very visceral experience spiritually.

SWIM is generally able to avoid purging but has had the advantage of having the mixture of the brew blessed and overseen by a professional shaman, and the purging itself has provided to add quite a bit of relevance and sense to the experience for him.

But SWIM agrees, chalk it up to personal preference. SWIM has no problem with purging.

[stinky_plant]

SWIM had a vision of his dead grandpa doing a masonic ritual while on ayahuasca. As mentioned above, it's not so much patterns and fractals, it's more seeing other realities, talking to the dead, and visions.

[69Ron]

Sometimes just a psychedelic experience alone can cause nausea.

The worst purge SWIM ever had was from pure LSD many years ago.

If a person believes that purging is an important cleansing experience, then purging can feel like a good thing. I’ve known people that don’t feel that an aya experience without a purge is a complete aya experience. They feel that the purge is needed to rid the body and soul of evil and are not happy if it doesn’t happen. This is where belief systems can really be an important part of the experience. One person purges and views it as unpleasant; another person purges and views it as a vital cleansing process. One person doesn’t purge and is glad of it; another person doesn’t purge and is unhappy about it!

Fasting is a similar phenomenon. In many cultures fasting is also seen as a way of cleansing the body and soul. Many people fast before using aya or mushrooms in a ritual setting.

SWIM likes to cook and really enjoys eating a good meal. SWIM usually uses harmine at night, 1 hour after dinner, and never has any problems with nausea and can eat pretty much any snack during the peak effects except dark chocolate. For some reason dark chocolate causes SWIM to get nausea after taking harmine. But nothing else does.

If SWIM uses real aya (unless it’s the purgeless aya brew made with B. caapi and Brugmansia), he can’t eat anything during the peak effects without purging.

SWIM usually takes aya or harmine at night and prefers harmine so he can have a snack during the peak and not worry about purging.

Recently SWIM has been taking harmine alone without DMT. Sometimes harmaline instead (if he’s planning to sleep early because harmaline helps you sleep). He rarely takes THH with harmine because it’s hard to extract and impossible to buy in his area. In some ways SWIM likes harmine more without DMT. When DMT is added, you get a lot of visual activity. The visions are clearer that’s for sure. But DMT makes the experience more unworldly. More like a fantasy. SWIM finds that he needs to really prepare for the journey if DMT is added. If DMT is added, you’re sort of stuck in the spirit world for a while. If you need to do normal worldly activities during the peak, you’ll just have to wait for the DMT to wear off. Without DMT, the effects feel more natural. The visions aren’t forceful. You can easily choose to have visions or not and you can easily do normal worldly activities even during the peak.

Have you ever tried Yopo? Out of all the things SWIM has tried, Yopo is the closest thing to aya. If prepared right it’s like a 2 hour aya session. Actually Yopo used to be more popular than aya. At some point in time aya took over. Now most people use aya. I think because it’s much easier to drink tea than snort Yopo.

[yosepi]

SWIM wholeheartedly agrees with most of SWIY's comments and observations. Aya with the inclusion of DMT is a very very powerful experience, intensity levels for SWIM have reached what SWIM can only touch on with large doses of mushrooms (10 grams+)

SWIM has experimented with Yopo, but felt that it had a very strong presence of 5meo as opposed to just straight up DMT, SWIM definitely has a poor history with 5meo, having provided SWIM with some hellish experiences, especially in Yopo form (intense nasal burning)

SWIM enjoys indulging in Syrian Rue Tea (bitter bitter beverage) on about a weekly basis, and with the exclusion of DMT, has provided SWIM with a lot of insight. SWIM's mother recently passed away in a similar circumstances to a nightmare he had two days prior and so SWIM has since been terrified of any entheogenic activity for the time being, as it hasn't been two weeks yet.

A nice Syrian Rue tea brewed down to about a shot, chased by a Vitamin Water and a good sit down, a bowl of Afghan Goo, and SWIM can pretty much find himself in very deep states of thought.

SWIM has a brew of Ayahuasca waiting to be consumed, but SWIM feels at this point it might aggravate negative emotions in lieu of recent events.

[69Ron]

With Yopo, the preparation of it makes a whole world of difference. It’s not as easy as brewing aya. Most people don't have the patients to do it right and end up with a sub par experience. SWIM knows, he’s tried it prepared many different ways. Once the preparation is perfected the experience is very close to aya visually, producing visions and all, not just a light show like DMT. But snorting Yopo is just plain uncomfortable. It always burns. There are some extraction techs out there that allow you to enjoy the magic of Yopo without much of the unpleasant side effects which SWIM has tried with much success.

I’d stay away from a full blown aya trip if there was anything that serious going on in my life. It could either really help you a lot or really make things worse.

[yosepi]

SWIM agrees with your last statement, SWIM will instead stick with his happy place and just visit psilocyberspace for now.

As for Yopo, SWIM would love to experiment more if what you say is true, SWIM has only heard painful things, SWIM has only felt painful things with Yopo....but SWIY has left SWIM intrigued.

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by meth

...The ayahausca recipe that will be used in this weeks session is banisteriopsis caapi + psychotria virdis.. what swim would like to know is if ayahuasca is compareable to lsd and shrooms in terms of 'mindfuck'...

SWIM says,

LSD has more ‘mindfuck’ potential than almost all other indole psychedelics. I think only 5-MeO-DMT beats LSD in that regard. I’ve tried 5-MeO-DMT many times, and it’s not a true psychedelic, it’s more of a dissociative with psychedelic side effects.

The ‘mindfuck’ potential of ayahuasca is about the same as mushrooms for me.

If you’re concerned with having a clear head, I would stear you in the direction of Yopo/Vilca (preferably a smoked freebase alkaloid extract to avoid side effects of snorting Yopo/Vilca). A good Yopo/Vilca alkaloid smokable extract produces lots of visuals plus more auditory hallucinations than ayahuasca, and there’s no ‘mindfuck’ or purging. But actual Yopo/Vilca is very unpleasant to snort, causing sinus tension, nausea, and burning sensation in the nostrils. It’s best to extract the alkaloids and smoke them to avoid the side effects.