Opinions - The Lisbon Treaty and Drug Policy

[Beanfondler]

That is astonishing to be quite honest.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

I hope and pray Ireland vote no, it's the only way to atleast delay their plans. Ireland is the only country in EU where an election is gonna be held, in the rest of europe this treaty has just been approved over the heads of the population, they are afraid to give people the choice, cuz they know best. EU turns less democratic each year, and if Ireland approves of this treaty it'll be the last time the european population is even made familiar with what is going on. I'm all for cooperation and inter-state trade, but the non-democratic centralization of power I'm very much against. The politicians ain't your friend, they have their own agenda and don't fool ya self believing you're in their plans apart from being cannon-fodder, physical or economical. They are only trying to get a piece of the pie themselves, fuck the electors. Ireland please vote no!
Drug policies will be harmonized by the strictest most prohibitionist standard, it's already in action, but so much more is at stake. Once we agree, or are forced to agree to this shit, there's no turning back, this treaty overrides atleast my national constitution in many areas. From now on your children and childrens children are gonna be governed by greedy corrupt politicians from far away.
Vote no!

[Coconut]

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeFloond

I hope and pray Ireland vote no, it's the only way to atleast delay their plans. Ireland is the only country in EU where an election is gonna be held, in the rest of europe this treaty has just been approved over the heads of the population, they are afraid to give people the choice, cuz they know best. EU turns less democratic each year, and if Ireland approves of this treaty it'll be the last time the european population is even made familiar with what is going on. I'm all for cooperation and inter-state trade, but the non-democratic centralization of power I'm very much against. The politicians ain't your friend, they have their own agenda and don't fool ya self believing you're in their plans apart from being cannon-fodder, physical or economical. They are only trying to get a piece of the pie themselves, fuck the electors. Ireland please vote no!
Drug policies will be harmonized by the strictest most prohibitionist standard, it's already in action, but so much more is at stake. Once we agree, or are forced to agree to this shit, there's no turning back, this treaty overrides atleast my national constitution in many areas. From now on your children and childrens children are gonna be governed by greedy corrupt politicians from far away.
Vote no!

Nicely said and I agree, but there's just one problem: Ireland already voted no. Read the first page of the thread.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by c0c0nut

Nicely said, but there's just one problem.

Ireland already voted no. Read the first page of the thread.

LOL! I apologize then. Shit I could have sworn it's been in the news lately here that the ireland vote was still upcomming. Oh well, I blame SWIM who seems to have been drinking again... :$

[podge]

This news is fantastic ! Victory !!!

[Mr. Giraffe]

Yes, this is a remarkable result. We should not forget that every single major party (with the exception of Sinn Féin who are only a borderline mainstream party in any case), along with the congress of trade unions, the employers union and the catholic church urged supporters to vote yes.

This result is astonishing given that Ireland was well and truly under the thumb of the establishment for most of the last thousand years. This result suggests that Irish people are casting off these shackles. I am pleasantly surprised!

Incidentally, this doesn't mean that anyone is respecting our decision. All of the yes pundits and politicians are basically saying that the no camp were dishonest scare-mongerers, and the voters were essentially too stupid to understand what they were voting about.

[Coconut]

I'm not so sure that people are rejecting the establishment as you say. It seems to me that most people who voted no did so because the treaty was so confusing and the Yes side/Referendum Commission didn't explain it well.

[podge]

Either way....its a celebration !!!

Ireland has thrown a spanner in the works of this bullshit treaty. I know the danger isnt over for Europe yet but weve done oh so well. this "treaty" appeared to be nothing more than a huge step towards a huge european dictatorship. And weve given hope to all the other nations of Europe too.

I dont think iv been this proud of my country before in in my lifetime. IRELAND I LOVE YOU !!!!!!!!!

[Coconut]

It's absolutely pathetic how European leaders are openly defying their own rules and pressing on with implementing the treaty even though it must be ratified by all 27 member states.

Scum.

[Mr. Giraffe]

Democracy is an inconvenient stumbling block for these people.

At least their behaviour might allow others to wake up to the reality, which is that the European elite don't give a flying fudge about the people of Europe. They just want power, perferably completely unaccountable power.

[vinylmesh]

C'mon. everyone knows they're just gonna run the election again. If the Irish constitution is readable then there's no reason this shouldn't be aswell.

The governments of the world have way to much power.
I'd usually go into a rant, but i figure this being a drugs forum everyone knows already.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by Mr. Giraffe

Democracy is an inconvenient stumbling block for these people.

At least their behaviour might allow others to wake up to the reality, which is that the European elite don't give a flying fudge about the people of Europe. They just want power, perferably completely unaccountable power.

Sadly, you are absolutely right. Ireland's no, will have no impact what so ever on the EU train that's rolling. Local and international politicians all sugest that, well yea, they voted no, but this doesn't show that anyone is against our plans of a european dictatorship, oh no, it merely suggest that people were uninformed and voted for all the wrong reasons which goes to show that it's a waste of time even asking them. It's not the first time a smaller nation's clear signalling is overheard, the show must go on, and let's face it this is a german/french imperialist vision that will take tremendous amounts of opposition before it's stopped. I'm such a bloody pacifist, but I'm starting to welcome any extremist group that might atleast stymy their plans. I'm afraid there's no longer any democratic ways of fighting this monster so anything goes (SWIM isn't encouraging illegal activity just for people to use their imagination on how to stop this)

[Lunar Loops]

Quite an incredible result and a much higher turn-out than expected too.

I find it slightly amusing to hear politicians whining about their lot now that the result has not gone as they wished. "There is no plan B", they whine. Well all that does is serve to illustrate your inadequacies as public representatives. To be so glib as to assume that the vote would be YES and therefore no contingency plan was required.

The initial angry noises coming out of some quarters in Europe have calmed and become more conciliatory. It will be interesting to see how this now pans out. Although they seem to be in essence saying that the other 26 should go ahead and ratify, it may not be as simple as that. The Czechs are also VERY uncomfortable with this treaty. Britain is to be the first to ratify I believe.

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeFloond

Sadly, you are absolutely right. Ireland's no, will have no impact what so ever on the EU train that's rolling. Local and international politicians all sugest that, well yea, they voted no, but this doesn't show that anyone is against our plans of a european dictatorship, oh no, it merely suggest that people were uninformed and voted for all the wrong reasons which goes to show that it's a waste of time even asking them. It's not the first time a smaller nation's clear signalling is overheard, the show must go on, and let's face it this is a german/french imperialist vision that will take tremendous amounts of opposition before it's stopped. I'm such a bloody pacifist, but I'm starting to welcome any extremist group that might atleast stymy their plans. I'm afraid there's no longer any democratic ways of fighting this monster so anything goes (SWIM isn't encouraging illegal activity just for people to use their imagination on how to stop this)

Actually it may have done far more harm than you think. Ireland has already said that it will not hold a second referendum on the treaty and allowing them to be out of the treaty and retain a commissioner + veto powers would create a two-tier EU with the UK locked in the bottom tier. There were recent reports that Gordon Brown would not sign the treaty (from "sources close to the prime minister") because of this.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by FuBai

Actually it may have done far more harm than you think. Ireland has already said that it will not hold a second referendum on the treaty and allowing them to be out of the treaty and retain a commissioner + veto powers would create a two-tier EU with the UK locked in the bottom tier. There were recent reports that Gordon Brown would not sign the treaty (from "sources close to the prime minister") because of this.

Although this sounds somewhat positive I doubt it will matter much in larger lines. If by veto powers you mean opt-outs similar to the ones a couple of nations have on some parts of earlier treatys. Denmark has four opt-outs already, which just means we are left out of the decision making on these issues, but have the advantage that we aren't bound to accept them either (To a certain degree, for instance we don't have the euro but our economy is still strictly tied to it). So it may well be good for Ireland, but won't have much influence on the rest of EU I'm afraid.

From what I've read in the news tonight, the commons in UK had already rattified the treaty before the Ireland election and the sovereign rattified the treaty this evening, so it seems those reports were wrong.

On the good news side, because of Irelands no, the danish governments plans of having another referandum to get rid of our four opt-outs has been postponed for now.

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeFloond

Although this sounds somewhat positive I doubt it will matter much in larger lines. If by veto powers you mean opt-outs similar to the ones a couple of nations have on some parts of earlier treatys. Denmark has four opt-outs already, which just means we are left out of the decision making on these issues, but have the advantage that we aren't bound to accept them either (To a certain degree, for instance we don't have the euro but our economy is still strictly tied to it). So it may well be good for Ireland, but won't have much influence on the rest of EU I'm afraid.

Actually the vetos refer to the descisions in the EU which require unanimous support (a vote in which every member carries a veto), and those in which QMV (Qualified Majority Voting) is used, and no countires have veto powers. If Ireland did not ratify the treaty it would retain veto powers in areas of policy that other countries only have a vote in the QMV system, giving Ireland more direct influence than any other country.

Simillarly their ability to retain a commisioner would give them greater powers in Brussels than any other country. To allow one EU country to retain either veto powers in areas others lose them, or a Commisioner, would give them pre-emminence in EU policy making.

But yes it does appear that the article was incorrect, however the Czech Prime minister certainly still seems to think the treaty is dead.

[Mr. Giraffe]

There's a hilarious letter in today's Guardian from a Professor (no less!) who lamented the decision of the ignorant Irish, and said that this simply illustrated the undemocratic nature of referenda (try to keep up with this logic) because they allowed the public to voice an opinion which might turn out to be wrong. He argued (I wish I was making this up) that parliamentary democracy was actually much more democratic and that therefore the tiny number of people in Ireland shouldn't be allowed to derail the awesome democratic parliamentary ratification process taking place throughout the rest of Europe.

Most of our political leaders and pundits would vote the public out if they could. Fintan O'Toole, the Irish Times assistant editor, was typical of this reaction, saying that the Irish had voted no for stupid reasons. He pointed to two (count 'em, two) women interviewed on a radio vox pop who said they had voted against it because of abortion and EU army, respectively. Naturally Fintan wasn't happy with the public either. They were obviously ignorant.

Of course, the real ignorant ones are those who voted yes, even though they couldn't possibly have fully understood the treaty (it was designed precisely not to be understood), while our Taoiseach (prime minister) gladly told us that he hadn't even fully read the damn thing.

Looked at from that angle, you could say that 47% of the Irish public are gullible morons who will follow their priests and politicians off the edge of a cliff if they're told that's what they have to do.

[Burnt]

wow glad to hear so many people are opposed to a lot of things going on with this EU thing. I think the whole things just another level of beaurcracy mean to take away peoples freedoms to govern their own lives. Just like the U.N., WTO, IMF, the fed govt in the U.S. all are taking too much power that they dont deserve.

people may like the temporary economic and traveling benefits but people wont like it when they are so wrapped up in these complicated international treaties and laws that tell them what to do all the time.

its also a shame the pressure being put on the netherlands about its drugs policy. my opinion is everyone just needs to shape up and legalize and the problem will start to go away.

[Mr. Giraffe]

So they're going to ask us again.

In October.

Without changing the treaty at all.

Two cheers for democracy!

[Lunar Loops]

Originally Posted by Mr. Giraffe

So they're going to ask us again.

In October.

Without changing the treaty at all.

Two cheers for democracy!

Where did you get this information from? I have heard nothing of this.

The Czechs may still throw a further spanner in the Euroworks.

[podge]

Iv heard Ireland has until October to come up with a solution for the EU, thats according to the BBC, i dont know what exactly this means but its not good.

[Coconut]

Originally Posted by RTÉ

Uncertainty about position in Europe - Cowen

Saturday, 21 June 2008 22:01
The Taoiseach has said that there is uncertainty about the way forward in the aftermath of the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty and great uncertainty about Ireland's position in Europe.

Brian Cowen said he would work between now and October with European colleagues and would try to distil the concerns of the Irish Electorate to find a way forward.

He said that until the process was over he was not in a position to engage in glib speculation as to what might happen.

Earlier today, a senior member of French President Nicolas Sarkozy's political party has said a second referendum in Ireland is the only way for Europe to make progress.

The Chairman of the Committee on Foreign Affairs in the French National Assembly, Axel Poniatowski, said that Ireland should stage another vote on the Lisbon Treaty in the next 12 months.

Mr Poniatowski said that he did not see any other choice because Europe was 'in the middle of the river' because it is governed by the Treaty of Nice, which he said left Europe in paralysis.

Fantastic. I'm moving.

[Nature Boy]

This is bullshit. I'm not advocating support for or against this treaty as my non-participation advocates but to put it down to referendum again within a year is absolutely insulting. Who gives a shit if the NO vote was tilted by nationalistic sentiments and non-conformism. The supporting political parties were just as deceptive in their vague arguments in favour of the treaty. Thank fuck for the constitution at least. It seems people knew what they were doing the best part of a century ago compared to some of the bollocks they're vomiting out now.

[Coconut]

Originally Posted by The Times

Ireland under Franco-German pressure to hold new EU vote

The Irish government is expected to bow to Franco-German pressure and hold a second referendum to try to rescue the Lisbon treaty that voters rejected this month.

The plan for a possible new vote in Ireland, being discussed by some ministers in Dublin, will be greeted with outrage by opponents of the treaty in Britain.

Irish ministers believe it may be able to rescue the treaty if they can secure concessions from Europe to placate voters on a list of issues.

“A yes vote can be achieved if the Irish people are offered guarantees on issues like defence and taxation,” said one senior Irish official. “The no campaign will be picked off one by one. Everyone has a price.”

The likely time for a new referendum is next spring so that the treaty can come into force before the June 2009 European election campaign for the Brussels parliament. The date is favoured by Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor.

If the Irish vote no again, Gordon Brown would have to choose between siding with Ireland to stop its citizens being turned into second-class Europeans or siding with France and Germany to push ahead with further European Union integration.

Concessions likely to be sought by Ireland include guarantees to protect its neutrality in the event of European armed forces being created, the reinstatement of its right to a European commissioner and the right to set its own abortion laws and corporate tax rates.

Sarkozy is determined to “save” the EU as France takes over the rotating presidency on July 1.

“It is not written down in the summit conclusions but everyone agreed that we need to get out of this before next year’s European elections,” Sarkozy said last week. He said European leaders had already mandated France to ensure the EU “does not grind to a halt”.

Both Sarkozy and Merkel have exerted subtle pressure on Ireland and its potential allies by threatening the end of the EU’s enlargement east if the Lisbon treaty does not come into force.

The French president will visit Ireland on July 11 for talks with Brian Cowen, the taoiseach. “We will try to make this ‘no’ an opportunity,” he said, pledging to use “English pragmatism” to find a solution.

The Irish government has to decide its next move before the next European Council meeting on October 15.

A spring referendum date is seen as crucial by several European leaders, but no strict timeline has been imposed on Ireland to come up with a response to the no vote; and there has been no formal declaration from the European Council that the country has to hold a second referendum.

“The council did not impose a timeline or plan B or C upon us,” an Irish government official said. “That would have left us in a difficult space. Now they await our detailed analysis of where we go from here.”

I think I might just get sick. "Everyone has a price"? Disgusting.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Excuse the puddle of vomit I couldn't help myself... Atleast they're playing with somewhat open cards, the contempt for the voters shines nicely through. SWIM throws on a little RATM at full volume while he's plotting and scheming, plotting and scheming for his avenge of DOOM.