Smoking - Harshness of DMT smoke?

[xA_Sky]

SWIM finally feels prepared to try DMT, but is unsure of how to take it in.

SWIM is not a smoker first of all and can not even break through on Salvia (weak lungsssss)
So the question arises, how bad is DMT smoke on the lungs?

Should SWIM try and snort it?
Or should he try and smoke it?

[eastwood]

Swim likes to sprinkle DMT in a joint.Swim says after jumping down the rabbit hole a few times he prefers to climb down instead of jumping head first down the hole which happens if smoked in a pipe solo..

Swim says don't snort DMT smoke it.

Spice is Nice.

[xA_Sky]

The only thing SWIM is worried about is his lungs might not be able to handle the smoke, leaving wasted DMT.

How is the smoke on the lungs to a non smoker, was pretty much my question?

[trptamene]

The automatic reflex is to breathe out. The smoke is tolerable, but if swiy is not prepared for it they may waste it. Swiy should try not to do a huge dose if this is the first time has inhaled smoke. Do a smaller dose to see what it is like so swiy can be prepared and knows what is up against before loading a higher dose.

Also, be careful as always w/ DMT...smoked DMT is no joke.

[xA_Sky]

The smoke is tolerable!
Thank you

SWIM has smoked but not enough to the point where SWIM's lungs can handle all types of smoke.

I am not taking the DMT as a joke, but thank you very much.

[Salvinorin A]

SWIM is also a bad smoker in general....his trachea really hurts with DMT smoke.

However, the "smoking curve" for dmt is really weird. the first few times...swim coughed almost all of it up.......and got very light effects...still awesome...but very light.

The 4th time he did it....he coughed up the first two hits (and with the help of the DMT already starting to take effect)......he perfectly inhaled the last one (which gave swim his first real trip).....irritated his trachea like normal.....but didn't cough.

The same thing still kind of happens...but now if it happens it all...it's only on the first hit.

Sal-A

[eastwood]

Swim also adds...It really depends on how clean the DMT is.Swim has seen some pretty crude pictures of DMT that was sure to have lye in it.

Swim says clean DMT should have a clear glass crystal appearance

[pinkandfluffy]

Just don't expect your first time to go off smoothly, and so only pack a small amount in. Put small amounts of tobacco on top and on the bottom. Also, for his first time SWIM found it helpful to first smoke a pipe of baccy, preparing himself for the inhale with no coughing.

[69Ron]

SWIM holds it for 30 seconds. That's enough to get most of it. It's hard to hold it longer than that.

SWIM finds the smoke to be very tolerable and easy to inhale IF it is vaporized properly. It it's burnt instead of boiled to make the vapor, it's much harsher.

The taste is SO ARTIFICIAL. It really does taste like plastic.

SWIM cannot get used to the plastic taste. It smells so unnatural.

SWIM doesn’t use a pipe. He doesn’t use tobacco or anything like that. SWIM is a scientist and does it the RIGHT WAY. SWIM weighs out the DMT on a milligram accurate scale. He then uses a long spoon to carefully place the dose in a very large test tube about 35 mm wide that is horizontally attached to a sturdy lab clamp. He then places a two hole rubber stopper in the end of the test tube with a class tube attached to one hole. This glass tube extends far into the test tube and allows air to enter the test tube near the far end of the tube, instead of the tube’s opening. In the other hole in the rubber stopper SWIM has a flexible vaporizing whip attached.

Here's a picture of this type of setup:

To get things started, swim lights a flame under the horizontally mounted test tube, positioned directly under the DMT (usually bufotenine, not DMT) in the test tube. The flame is positioned about 15 mm away from the test tube. Within about 15 seconds, the DMT starts to boil and produce vapor without burning. The large test tube fills with DMT vapor.

While it fills with vapor, SWIM keeps a finger over the inhalation hole in the vapor whip so that all the vapor remains trapped inside the large test tube. After about 15 more seconds, SWIM inhales all of the vapor in one shot.

He's able to get a really large dose in one hit this way.

You shouldn't use a candle as shown in that pic. A candle is too dangerous and could cause a fire. The flame should come from a lighter or some other source that requires you to hold it to keep the flame going. This way, the flame goes out as soon as you let go of it.

The main advantage of this setup is that you’re not holding the pipe so you can’t drop it if you suddenly inhale too much and enter hyperspace. Another advantage is that, because it’s glass you can see if you’re vaporizing your material or burning it to a crisp. And because the glass test tube is very large, you can let a large cloud of vapor accumulate in the test tube before inhaling any of it. This way you require much less material to get the same subjective effects.

Reputation Comments on this post:

great post good info.

[Troa]

the smoke hurts swim very badly if not smoked in a long enough pipe. his is a total of about 2 ft long (glass extensions) and it does wonders. short pipes makes swims lungs hurt for a week...

[69Ron]

That sounds unusually painful. DMT vaporizes at a much lower temperature than most other things, including water. So I doubt it’s heat of the vapor causing that pain mentioned by SWIY. It must be something else.

SWIM is NOT A SMOKER and doesn’t like to smoke. So his lungs are not used to harsh smoke. SWIM finds the smoke to be very mild. But SWIM always lets the smoke accumulate in the large test tube before inhaling it, so it cools down before he inhales it.

My gut reaction is that there must be some impurities (small pieces of lye most likely) present accounting for the pain mentioned by SWIY. It’s probably residual lye present from the extraction. You don’t need the lye to vaporize in order to inhale it. If a person put a small amount of powdered lye in a short pipe and inhaled without any heat, the small particles of lye are going to go into your lungs and cause damage and extreme pain. With a large pipe, the lye is more likely to get stuck somewhere in the bends of the pipe instead of going straight into your lungs.

Is it possible there is any residual lye present?

SWIY could test it by placing it in water and checking the pH. If the pH is about 8.68 or less, then it’s fine. That’s the pKa of freebase DMT. But if the pH is much higher, say 9.5 or more, then it’s contaminated with a little lye and needs to be cleaned. It only takes a few tiny pieces of lye to cause lots of pain and tissue damage that could take days to recover from.




While on the subject of lye, I thought I should mention something here.

NO ONE SHOULD BE USING LYE TO EXTRACT DMT. There is no need to use such a dangerous caustic chemical. The pKa of DMT is very low, only 8.68. So a pH of 9.5 is plenty good enough for liquid/liquid extractions. Even a pH of 8.5 works almost as well when doing liquid/liquid extractions. In the past SWIM tested extractions using lye (sodium hydroxide) at pH 8.0, 8.5, 9.0, 9.5, 10.0, 11.0, and 12.0, and found very little differences in the yields but did find the optimal pH range was 9.5-10.5. A pH of 8.5 was nearly as good as pH 9.5, but lower than 8.5 gave poor yields. A pH of 12 started destroying some of the DMT. SWIM finds it very suspicious that in some DMT extraction techs people recommend a pH of 12 and actually recommend using lye (a DEA watched chemical, hmmm, very suspicious indeed). At pH 12, the DMT starts falling apart and soaps start forming causing difficult emulsions to form. SWIM can’t see how this could be a good thing. The pH values 12-13 are the optimal pH condition for saponification (the creation of soaps). Soap is NOT something you want in your liquid\liquid extraction.

Another reason NOT to use lye. If someone lives in the US they are at risk if they buy this chemical. In the US, lye (sodium hydroxide) is one of the chemicals watched by the DEA. If you order enough of it, you could get a visit from the authorities.

Bases that are both safer, food grade, and less likely to cause the DEA to watch you include:

* calcium hydroxide - this is very strong base sold as a grocery item called pickling lime. It has poor water solubility, but can bring solutions to a pH of 12.4.
* sodium carbonate – this is used in wine making and can bring a solution up to a pH of 11.6.
* sodium bicarbonate – sold as a grocery item called baking soda and can bring a solution up to pH 8.3.

SWIM tested with various bases and found the best one to be sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate is a strong alkaline compound with a pH of 11.6 for a 0.1M aqueous solution. That’s way more power than you need to freebase something with a low pKa of 8.68. Also sodium carbonate is easier to remove from your extract than lye. Lye is soluble in many solvents, while sodium carbonate is only soluble in a few solvent. For example, lye is soluble in alcohol, acetone, water, while sodium carbonate is soluble in water but not alcohol or acetone. So a person can clean their freebase DMT by dissolving the DMT in acetone. All the sodium carbonate will sink to the bottom of the acetone. Pour the acetone through a filter and all the sodium carbonate is removed. Evaporate the acetone and you have clean DMT. You can’t do this easy cheap acetone cleaning step if lye is used because it’s soluble in acetone and reacts with it. Instead you’ll have to resort to more costly solvents like heptane or ether to clean off the lye. Of course there are other cleaning techniques that can be used to clean off the lye. But there are more cleaning techniques available for sodium carbonate because of it’s more narrow solvent solubility profile. Also, residual sodium carbonate is not as harmful to human beings as residual lye.

Calcium hydroxide has very poor water solubility and because of this it takes a long time to react with chemicals to freebase them. I can take several hours to freebase DMT using a liquid solution of calcium hydroxide in water. It works much better if a paste of it is formed. It’s not so easy to work with.

Sodium bicarbonate is similar to sodium carbonate, but is slightly more soluble in more solvents and can only bring the pH up to 8.3. It’s an extremely safe base to use. A pH of 8.3 is high enough to start freebasing a compound with a pKa of 8.68 (DMT) in a liquid\liquid extraction. It’s not as efficient as pH 9.5, but it works. You’ll just need to perform maybe 6 liquid\liquid extractions instead of the usual 3.

When using sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate, bubbles of carbon dioxide will form as the pH is raised. So don’t add it too quickly or you’re have a mess of carbon dioxide bubbles bubbling up out of your beaker just like a can of soda that is shaken.

[Troa]

i think swims problem may be that he is smoking it at too high of a temp. he was told that extreme heats are needed in order to achieve a full trip, but based on what ive read here he may be wrong. i think im going to recommend the above stated method to him and ill get back to everyone on the results.

[69Ron]

DMT boils at 60-80 C.
Water at 100 C.

So boiling water is hot enough to produce DMT vapor.

Maybe that friend of SWIY is talking about 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine), DMT's stronger and cheaper cousin. Freebase bufotenine has visuals sort of like DMT, but boils at about 320 C. The vapor is a little more harsh and its about 5-10 times more potent than DMT. 5-HO-DMT is usually extracted from Anadenanthera and is usually light amber in color, not white or yellow like DMT usually is. DMT smells almost exactly like plastic (very similar to 5-MeO-DMT). 5-HO-DMT has almost no odor, maybe a little tiny bit like coffee.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

SWIM finds it very suspicious that in some DMT extraction techs people recommend a pH of 12 and actually recommend using lye (a DEA watched chemical, hmmm, very suspicious indeed).

What's your point ? That Marsfold (author of one the TEKs that use 13.4 ; just an example though) wants you to get busted ? He recommends 13.4 and NaOH (and not many others chemical as you probably already know) gets you there. No conspiracy.

Smoke (tobacco) can become less harsh if extra strong menthol candies are used before smoking. Maybe the same goes for DMT.

[pyroarchy]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

So a person can clean their freebase DMT by dissolving the DMT in acetone. All the sodium carbonate will sink to the bottom of the acetone. Pour the acetone through a filter and all the sodium carbonate is removed. Evaporate the acetone and you have clean DMT.

Would the acetone need to be anhydrous? Or does it matter?

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by pyroarchy

Would the acetone need to be anhydrous? Or does it matter?

Anhydrous is best, but it doesn't matter that much because as I understand it water saturated with sodium carbonate is insoluble in acetone and sinks to the bottom of the acetone.

[Troa]

no swims smells like burning rubber or some shit. its really nasty, he says it stinks up the whole house for days, he insisits on doing it outside. hes ben smoking it with a torch lighter or off a red hot stove though. glad i found out the people who taught him are idiots. haha. always good to do a little of your own research.

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by Troa

no swims smells like burning rubber or some shit. its really nasty, he says it stinks up the whole house for days...

Yeah, that's DMT (or 5-MeO-DMT which smells nearly the same). It's a weird artificial smell described as burning rubber or plastic. Most people don't like it and the smell lingers for a long time.

[EntheogenicTruth]

Originally Posted by Troa

no swims smells like burning rubber or some shit. its really nasty, he says it stinks up the whole house for days, he insisits on doing it outside. hes ben smoking it with a torch lighter or off a red hot stove though. glad i found out the people who taught him are idiots. haha. always good to do a little of your own research.

WOW, outside? the only time swim or anyone around swim has ever smoked DMT outside they have had trips that were a little too intense/uncomfortable to break through, had a reasonably nice time though... learning from trees...

anyway onto the subject of the harshness, swim has been using a normal cigarette lighter to smoke his DMT through a base pipe, now, should he switch to using a jet lighter to get the DMT vaporised faster? swim and his crazy amphibian friends think it seems that the dmt is not vaporised especially fast. good idea?

[69Ron]

Basically you want these two things:
1 – Low heat, about 100 C is about as high as you want to go. High heat destroys a lot of the freebase DMT which vaporizes at 80 C and below. To give you an idea of this, a smoldering cigarette has a temperature of 400 °C. A candle flame has a temperature of 1000 °C. You never want the flame touching the DMT. It should be at least ½ an inch away from it, and from below it.
2 – Inhale the entire dose as a single cloud of DMT vapor in a single inhalation. For this you need some sort of vapor chamber that can hold it until all the DMT is completely vaporized and you are ready to inhale all of it at once.

You shouldn’t smoke it like its cannabis or tobacco. That’s very wasteful and less effective. Basically you want to boil it but not burn it. You want the temperature of the DMT to reach about 80 C and no higher. That will vaporize all of it without burning any of it. Those high power lighters destroy a lot of it if the flame is too close to it.

Nothing works better than the horizontal test tube setup I posted a picture of earlier (or something similar). The reason: you can use a very low heat flame 1/2 an inch below it so no DMT is destroyed, and you can wait for a few seconds for all of it to vaporize producing a large cloud of DMT vapor containing all of the DMT, and that DMT cloud is pretty much trapped in the test tube until you inhale it. It’s the most efficient and most potent way of using DMT and similar alkaloids. A balloon style vaporizer is ok, but inconvenient and expensive.

To make a test tube vaporizer all you need is a large 38 x 200mm test tube (about $2), a stand (about $10), a clamp (about $5), a large #6 ½ or #7 size rubber stopper with two wholes in it to fit the test tube (about $1), some 5mm glass tubes to fit into the rubber stopper (about $2), and some vinyl tubing to use as the vapor inhalation whip (about $1). That’s a total of $21 for the entire setup. We’re not talking a lot of money here. Some fancy lighters cost more than that! You’ll need a glass tubing cutter (about $8) if you don’t already have one.

[Potter]

Nobody's not sure about that whole test tube set up. It just seems like a great way to come out to a pile of broken glass, if not a house fire. This isn't really stuff to do alone, too much flailing and once and a while an urge to go out in public when you aught not. Having someone to prepare the pipe and watch your back is just smart.

[Troa]

im not sure im following you potter.... how would you get a house fire from that setup? the only flame is coming from your lighter which, is NOT going to start a house fire just becuse swiy is high on DMT. If theyre high they will probably just drop the lighter anyways. no finger on button = no flame. seems like a great idea to me.

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by Potter

Nobody's not sure about that whole test tube set up. It just seems like a great way to come out to a pile of broken glass, if not a house fire.

SWIM uses that test tube setup all the time. He's used it for 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, 5-HO-DMT, etc. Nothing works better for SWIM.

Why would there be broken glass and a fire?

I think you didn't quite get the idea. You wouldn't be holding anything but the lighter (the pic shows a candle, but that's not a good idea, that could cause a fire). If you drop a lighter the flame goes out because you need to press the trigger for a flame to persist. The test tube is held by a heavy duty cast iron lab stand, you don't hold it yourself. It sits firmly on a table. It's not going to fall and break by itself. Even if you were to pull on the vapor whip really hard, it would come out of the test tube because the cast iron stand is so heavy that the test tube is going to stay put. If you were worried about the heavy cast iron lab stand somehow falling on the floor (I don't know why that would happen), then you can get a lab stand that clamps onto a table and that solves your problem.

Originally Posted by Potter

This isn't really stuff to do alone, too much flailing and once and a while an urge to go out in public when you aught not. Having someone to prepare the pipe and watch your back is just smart.

SWIM totally disagrees with that. SWIM is not the type to get up and smash things around just because he’s having a bad trip.

If a drug is so dangerous and hard to handle for you that you think you need a sitter, maybe you should not be using it.

SWIM does DMT the way Terrence McKenna preferred it and that’s ALONE.

SWIM doesn't like being in the company of others while high on DMT. SWIM likes to be in the dark at home while tripping really hard on DMT so that he can enjoy the “movie” on his own. Why have others in to room distracting SWIM and ruining the show? SWIM doesn’t see the need for a sitter ever when using DMT. SWIM has used massive doses of LSD, DMT, shrooms, etc., SWIM might get a little frightened sometimes from some scary visions, but SWIM never felt he needed a sitter. During a bad trip, the best thing for SWIM is to be alone in a safe environment until the effects wear off.

Most of SWIM’s bad trips were caused by other people in the room freaking out because they couldn’t handle it. After a few times of that, SWIM gave up and now does it alone all the time and enjoys it much more that way.

[Troa]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

SWIM totally disagrees with that. SWIM is not the type to get up and smash things around just because he’s having a bad trip.

If a drug is so dangerous and hard to handle for you that you think you need a sitter, maybe you should not be using it.

SWIM does DMT the way Terrence McKenna preferred it and that’s ALONE.

SWIM doesn't like being in the company of others while high on DMT. SWIM likes to be in the dark at home while tripping really hard on DMT so that he can enjoy the “movie” on his own. Why have others in to room distracting SWIM and ruining the show? SWIM doesn’t see the need for a sitter ever when using DMT. SWIM has used massive doses of LSD, DMT, shrooms, etc., SWIM might get a little frightened sometimes from some scary visions, but SWIM never felt he needed a sitter. During a bad trip, the best thing for SWIM is to be alone in a safe environment until the effects wear off.

Most of SWIM’s bad trips were caused by other people in the room freaking out because they couldn’t handle it. After a few times of that, SWIM gave up and now does it alone all the time and enjoys it much more that way.

SWIM would have to agree. Though SWIM doesnt mind tripping around other people, unless its their first time SWIY shouldnt really need a sitter. If you think you do, DMT isnt really something you should be doing. It can be dangerous to those without strong enough minds.

[pyroarchy]

SWIM heard somewhere on this forum that the harshness is from the dmt being a alkaloid. SWIM does'nt mind the harshness of the smoke, but is more offended by the mothball taste and the numbing of the lips or whatever the smoke was flowing against when entering. SWIM used a testtube and lightbulb for a long time, works good if handled well in the hands of a experienced DMT smoker. But the heat is annoying factor, setting the pipe down will BURN/MELT things. SWIM bought a EagleBill Vaporiser and is going to try it next time to see if it works good.