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Ecstasy & MDMA Ecstasy (XTC) pills and pure MDMA

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  #1  
Old 19-04-2008, 01:11
ch00se ch00se is offline
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Pure mdma dosage question

Quick question,

SWIM took 0.5g mdma, swim feels good but swim wants to know is this a monging dose and would taking less (for next time) be better?
  #2  
Old 29-07-2010, 08:52
Wanderer Wanderer is offline
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MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight.

... or how to hit the "sweet spot" without too much trouble.

V. 1.0 - Initial Version
V. 1.1 - Added information on Max dosages and LD50 information.


SWIM has seen lots of numbers floating around along with tales of heroic dosing. SWIM put his hamster to work on figuring out what the optimal dosage is for MDMA. In the interest of gathering all the information together, the hamster has made a fairly exhaustive search of the relevant sites.


Let's ask PiHKAL...
The hamster began with PiHKAL Entry #109 MDMA which states:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiHKAL Entery #109
EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY: In clinical use, largely in psychotherapeutic sessions of which there were many in the early years of MDMA study, it became a common procedure to provide a supplemental dosage of the drug at about the one and a half hour point of the session. This supplement, characteristically 40 milligrams following an initial 120 milligrams, would extend the expected effects for about an additional hour, with only a modest exacerbation of the usual physical side-effects, namely, teeth clenching and eye twitching. A second supplement (as, for instance, a second 40 milligrams at the two and a half hour point) was rarely felt to be warranted. There are, more often than not, reports of tiredness and lethargy on the day following the use of MDMA, and this factor should be considered in the planning of clinical sessions.
This states a dosage of 1.5mg/Kg body mass followed by .5mg/Kg body mass at 1.5-2 hours following. Further it goes on to state that additional boosters will provide diminishing returns. Something which SWIM's hamster experimented on himself here:

Initial dose, topping up over extended period - thoughts?

The hamster's results seemed to confirm what is in PiHKAL. Needless to say the hamster really isn't too excited about trying to reproduce the results. It seems that heroic dosing just really isn't worth it. However, some hamsters may feel differently and are entitled to their opinion, however, Mr. Hamster thinks the side-effects and potential neurotoxicity outweigh any added benefits.



What about Erowid?
Checking Erwoid the following information on dosage can be found:

MDMA Dosage by Erowid

Their dosage table is as follows:
Oral MDMA Dosages  
Threshold 30 mg
Light 40 - 75 mg
Common (small or sensitive people) 60 - 90 mg
Common (most people) 75 - 125 mg
Common (large or less sensitive people) 110 - 150 mg
Strong 150 - 200 mg
Heavy 200 + mg


This is in line with the mg/Kg body mass calculation which the hamster has done another chart for.



Isn't there a place called DanceSafe?
However, the hamster had a few more sites to check tole DanceSafe on their page:

Ecstacy MDMA Drug Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceSafe
WHAT IS THE DOSAGE?
  • E is almost always swallowed as a tablet or capsule. A normal dose is around 100-125 mg.
  • Black market "ecstasy" tablets vary widely in strength, and often contain other drugs.


But wait, there's this thing called Lycaeum...
Ok, So there's one more source which seems to agree on the typical dose. Before we're done, let's stop over at Lycaeum and see what they have to say on the subject.

Lycaeum > Leda > MDMA
Quote:
Dosage:
  • Oral
A standard dose of MDMA is commonly held to be 120 mg. DEA analysis of seized pills indicates 75-100 mg is more typical.
  • Rectal
Rectal dosage is similar to oral, 75 to 120 mg.
But hold on! DEA analysis says the typical dose is generally 75-100mg based on confiscated tablets. This is what the DEA discovered in the actual MDMA content of the tablets they have confiscated and in no way have anything to do with the recommended dosage. This is just a bit of slight-of-hand on Lycaeum's part (shame on them…)



So, what does this all mean?
So, putting what we know together the average sized hamster weighing 180lbs. would set an initial dose of about 120mg. Using this handy table..

Dosages by weight, including booster.
Weight lb. Kg Body Mass Initial 1.5mg/Kg Booster .5mg/Kg Total Dose
90lb 40.9Kg 61mg 20mg 82mg
100lb 45.5Kg 68mg 23mg 91mg
110lb 50.0Kg 75mg 25mg 100mg
120lb 54.5Kg 82mg 27mg 109mg
130lb 59.1Kg 89mg 30mg 119mg
140lb 63.6Kg 95mg 32mg 127mg
150lb 68.2Kg 102mg 34mg 136mg
160lb 72.7Kg 109mg 36mg 145mg
170lb 77.3Kg 116mg 39mg 155mg
180lb 81.8Kg 123mg 41mg 164mg
190lb 86.4Kg 130mg 43mg 173mg
200lb 90.9Kg 136mg 45mg 181mg
210lb 95.5Kg 143mg 48mg 191mg
220lb 100.0Kg 150mg 50mg 200mg
230lb 104.5Kg 157mg 52mg 209mg
240lb 109.1Kg 164mg 55mg 219mg
250lb 113.6Kg 170mg 57mg 227mg

This table is completely in line with what the recommended dosages on all the published sites. The chart follows the "recommended therapeutic" dosage of 1.5mg/Kg body mass for initial dose and a .5mg/Kg body mass booster. Assuming a light weight hamster of 90lbs, the doses agree at 60mg.

Take note the LD50 for MDMA is 80mg/Kg. That would mean for the smallest mass on this table it would be 3.28g for a hamster weighing 41Kg. For the largest, the 113.5Kg hamster it would be an LD50 dose of 9.08g. These numbers come nowhere close to harmful levels as the recommended dosage for the 113.6Kg hamster is 227mg which is a mere fraction of the LD50 for the 41Kg hamster.

Hamster Size Weight lb. Kg Body Mass Total Dosage LD50 Dose
Small 90lb 40.9Kg 82mg 3280mg
Large 250lb 113.6Kg 227mg 9080mg

Even confusing the total dosage for the largest hamster for the smallest would at worst increase the chances of some of the "bad" effects of the MDMA, and only slightly raise neurotixicity probability.

Hopefully now that people can see the numbers, this clears some of the fog surrounding the dosages of MDMA, assuming what SWIY's hamster has is MDMA.

SWIM is proud of his hamster at gathering all this information together and presenting it here as an educational tool for all. The hamster views this as a work in progress and welcomes any feedback or additional information to include. PM SWIM and he'll pass along the information to the hamster or just post comments following this.

Be well, be safe, have fun...

Post Quality Evaluations:
Excellent work, thanks...
This is a terrific contribution. Thanks!
Fantastic work. Well organized and thorough!
great post, thanks for taking the time to compile all this info
Fantastic, well-researched post. Helpful & informative!
clear and useful info
Vital information laid out clearly and simply.
Extremely well done post

Last edited by Terrapinzflyer; 31-10-2010 at 23:38. Reason: Added version numbers at top and lots of other stuff.
  #3  
Old 30-07-2010, 09:06
Priapism9 Priapism9 is offline
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Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

Well you know what swim is going to say. Body weight should not be the only deciding factor. Level of experience should be given *equal* if not greater priority. I think it was very wise of Erowid to take the time to differentiate between a newbie and a veteran. There's a reason for it. And here is that reason once again:

Given the fact that 1 tablet equals 60-90mg of MDMA and 1 tablet is sufficient for the vast majority of new users, this proves that the body weight method is erroneous for people who are not veterans. While a 180lb veteran may require 125mg + 40mg booster just to "feel the magic", this is not at all the case for a new user. Swim still benefits from a half tablet, and rarely needs more than 1 full tablet. In fact, if a user is responsible in their usage, that user could remain a "newbie" forever, never graduating to higher doses and always being impressed by 1 tablet (60-90mg).

Swim has conclusively proven time and time again that new users overshoot the sweet spot at 125mg. Without exception. The same individuals go crazy with euphoria on a single tablet (60-90mg). I think that settles the matter in swims mind.

There is also a health issue on the table. Neurotoxicity is sigifnicantly reduced (as are health issues and ER visits) if the dose is kept low. Less is more with MDMA. I think its irresponsible to recommend a brand new user down 125+40mg on his or her first try. That is telling a new user to down 2-3 tablets for their first experience. Way too much. Swims first experience was on only a half tablet and he felt incredible. Half tablet equals 30mg. Swim weighs 185. Not surprisingly Erwoid comes in with the accurate information on that as well - stating that 30mg is the minimum thresshold for an experience with MDMA.

So there's more to consider here than body weight. Great collection of data however, and very helpful, however if it were my post, which its not, I would give significant relevance to the "newbie versus veteran" scale.

-P-
  #4  
Old 30-07-2010, 09:20
Wanderer Wanderer is offline
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Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

Agreed, however, these are the recommended dosages. Metabolism is also a key factor. Frequency of use should be a factor along with any other medications one is taking at the time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priapism9
Given the fact that 1 tablet equals 60-90mg of MDMA
Where is this number coming from?

However SWIY mentioned that a single tab which "according to the DEA" contains 75-100mg (figure probably more like 90mg). whcih would probably be fine for a hamster from about 110lbs up to about 160lbs. At least for the initial dose and should have a pretty good time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priapism9
Swim has conclusively proven time and time again that new users overshoot the sweet spot at 125mg. Without exception. The same individuals go crazy with euphoria on a single tablet (60-90mg). I think that settles the matter in swims mind.
The chart has a different "sweet spot" for each body mass. 125mg just happens to be for a hamster weighing about 180lb. How much did these hamsters weigh?

Also the dosages here are, even at the high end, nowhere near approaching levels where one would expect neurotoxicity. Those are where hamsters start hitting "heroic" dosages like 5 tabs in a night or more. This is just a waste. Also the LD50 is very high, at 80mg/Kg body weight, so the chart if anything errs on the side of caution at 1.5mg/Kg, and doesn't exceed the "normal" therapeutic dosages. For a 90lb hamster, the LD50 would be approximately 3.275g. That's huge.

The data from the various sources do not disagree, if they are compared. Forgot to gets the MAPS data, but figured that 5 sources would be enough, especially since they all agree.

The other factor SWIM left out was frequency of use. This plays into tolerance as well as neurotoxicity. SWIY brings up some good points and SWIM was thinking about making some modifications to the recommendations along with adding some information WRT ROA.

SWIM and his hamster welcome SWIY's suggestions and will try to make revisions as soon as they are a bit more thought out. But at least this was a good place to start.

Be well...

Last edited by Wanderer; 30-07-2010 at 12:15. Reason: added that forgot to include MAPS data. Looked up LD50. Added quotes from above.
  #5  
Old 30-07-2010, 15:15
Terrapinzflyer Terrapinzflyer is offline
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Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

An interesting side note here- for therapeutic use the dosage is widely standardized ~120mg~ . In the large MAPS sponsored study in the US they actually had to justify this to the FDA, as the standard in research is to use a dose based on body weight . But they sucessfully argued that from years of research with MDMA as well as ancedotal reports, a dose of ~120mg proved most effective without regard to body mass and without negative effects on smaller subjects.


EDIT adding a link to the related discussion: Dose - Safe amount of MDMA per dose?

Post Quality Evaluations:
Interesting info

Last edited by Terrapinzflyer; 04-04-2011 at 20:35.
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