Pharmacology - MDMA (molly) in regular amphetamine users

[Lehendakari]

My dog took abot 60 mg amphetamine daily for weeks and yesterday night he got ahold of some mdma crystal. Doggy measured 90 mg and mixed with his alcoholic beverage. The dog felt onset in less than 10 minutes and peaked in half hour.

During the trip there was some overwhelming rushes but he found the trip not speedy nor emphatogen but extremely trippy. He got confused and started to see things in slow frames (that's the best way I can describe it) so it wasn't specially euphoric but more of hallucinogenic nature, pretty cool though but not what he expected.

The first and last time dog took MDMA was long ago but there were some feelings that were identical to the first experience, so I'm pretty sure he took MDMA.

My question is that if my dog already had amphetamine tolerance, could MDMA have a more profound effect on serotonin and less action in DA and NAand this caused the intense hallucinogenic effect?? Weird question I know but I hope you guys have some opinions about it.....

[pinkandfluffy]

MDMA certainly can make people trip sometimes, but SWIM finds it mainly only happens on the come-down, once the lights are off (read the LSD experience I just posted)

Your hallucinations do sound odd, and i don't know much about amph. and serotonin levels... you might be right though.

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by pinkandfluffy

MDMA certainly can make people trip sometimes, but SWIM finds it mainly only happens on the come-down, once the lights are off (read the LSD experience I just posted)

Your hallucinations do sound odd, and i don't know much about amph. and serotonin levels... you might be right though.

The comedown was practically non-existent and dog was asleep 4 hour later (with some help from clonazepam). Next day dog felt all right.

They weren't true hallucinations they were more like general confusion. A deep change in perception. None of dog's friends nor his girlfriend noticed dog was high.

The hallucinations consisted in seeing things in separate frames instead of a continuum. Like, the dog is talking to someone and you see that person like you saw a bunch of motionless pictures of him moving at real time speed. Don't know if that actually makes sense to anyone but was very fucking funny.

[bineon]

Tell whomever your dog got his MDMA from to never sell him DXM as MDMA again?

[stoneinfocus]

MDMA has no cross-tolerance to amphetamines though chemicall it is one to the IUPAs noenclature and its structure.

This being said, amphetamines could add to or take some of the MDMA´s properties, bit most likely add to it (serotonine, but mostly dopamine adrenaline).

[bineon]

Amphetamine usually adds to the rolling experience as evidence by many pills having Amp or Meth in them.

[KyleM]

The best experiences SWIM has ever had on MDMA had a similar effect that Lehendakari is describing. Time appears to stop and each frame of vision seems distinguishable, almost like looking through heat waves in slow motion. SWIM had used amphetamine only once before these experiences...

[CircuitBoy]

Your dog's pill may have been MDA, which is more psychadellic than MDMA. How sure are you that he took a substance that is exactly pure MDMA?

[KyleM]

For SWIM, obviously no way to prove that now, but SWIM is very sure it was MDMA (most empathetic, pleasurable experiences) and did not feel anything like MDA. Also everytime he has ever had these effects, noone else whom he rolled with (or other people he knew that had taken same pills) experienced this and had no idea what SWIM was talking about when he described it. So he was pretty sure it was him and not that the pills were any different than expected. Lehendakari, does SWIY know anyone who consumed any from the same batch?

[radiometer]

A good percentage of users do not find pure MDMA to be terribly 'stimulating.' I've often seen recreational users describe high doses of MDMA as being "flooring," or almost sedative-like. It seems that the effects on DA and NE are quite different than those experienced on classic stimulants such as amphetamine. This difference has been especially noted by users who have gone from using MDMA to using methylone, which is somewhat similar to MDMA but much more 'stimulant-like' with regard to these neurotransmitters and effects.

A lot of people are unknowingly used to MDMA cut with methamphetamine or other stimulants, especially in the US, and are quite surprised by the effects of MDMA on its own when they finally find it.

[stoneinfocus]

Not to forget about pills containing appreciable amounts of MDA within the MDMA, resulting from the precursors...
Swim says that even 10-30mg pure MDA immediately felt like taking the rust from his muscles and feeling tightly shaped, proper and fit... very similar to pure amphetamine.

thern again there´s be crosstolerance in amphetaime users to MDA notso to MDMA, so the dog mentioned might have had the pure MDMA effect.

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by bineon

Tell whomever your dog got his MDMA from to never sell him DXM as MDMA again?

Look if you are not going to be of any help please shut up or don't reply my post. Dog is no newbie and knows his drug, his source and his body. Try to go smartie somewhere else.

MDMA has no cross-tolerance to amphetamines though chemicall it is one to the IUPAs noenclature and its structure
This being said, amphetamines could add to or take some of the MDMA´s properties, bit most likely add to it (serotonine, but mostly dopamine adrenaline)..

MDMA acts on DA and NE receptors as well as amphetamines, so if one is tolerant to amphetamines ie has some kind DA and NE receptor downregulation there is definitely or should be cross-tolerance in some effects.

By the way, it was crystals not pills and the exact amount of powder was 90 mg. There was a considerable amount of alcohol ingested prior dosing, this could have made the experience less speedy.

Originally Posted by radiometer

A good percentage of users do not find pure MDMA to be terribly 'stimulating.' I've often seen recreational users describe high doses of MDMA as being "flooring," or almost sedative-like.

"Flooring" definitely. I guess dog would have felt much more speedy or anxious if dosing alone in his bedroom. The set and setting made the experience mellow and calm. Everyone else was partying and talking (it was a pub) but dog was just out there enjoying himself on a zero anxiety state

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by KyleM

The best experiences SWIM has ever had on MDMA had a similar effect that Lehendakari is describing. Time appears to stop and each frame of vision seems distinguishable, almost like looking through heat waves in slow motion. SWIM had used amphetamine only once before these experiences...

That's a good description of what dog felt, but instead of slow motion, sometimes the frames went very fast like if his brain was trying to catch up with the info his eyes provided.

Anyway it was fun and it felt great just breathing and standing there tripping, the only thing is he didn't feel loved up and like hugging people. It was a mellow trip. With amphetamines or methylphenidate dog can help talking shit to everyone and he is practically forced to socialize

[stoneinfocus]

[quote=Lehendakari;399530]
MDMA acts on DA and NE receptors as well as amphetamines, so if one is tolerant to amphetamines ie has some kind DA and NE receptor downregulation there is definitely or should be cross-tolerance in some effects.

Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain.

More should be, but there seems to be none, so my experience. I´d try to find he statement of Shulgin where he claimed non-amphetamine typical effects of MDMA.

[Lehendakari]

Sorry when I said amphetamines I meant amphetamine sulphate. MDMA and MDA don't have cross-tolerance, but it doesn't say anything about amphetamine...

The question here is if regular (meth)amphetamine users tend to feel MDMA differently (less speedy, more trippy) than non users.

[moda00]

Originally Posted by Lehendakari

That's a good description of what dog felt, but instead of slow motion, sometimes the frames went very fast like if his brain was trying to catch up with the info his eyes provided.

Anyway it was fun and it felt great just breathing and standing there tripping, the only thing is he didn't feel loved up and like hugging people. It was a mellow trip. With amphetamines or methylphenidate dog can help talking shit to everyone and he is practically forced to socialize

Swim is one of those who was introduced to ecstasy pills and never quite knew what was going on other than to know that there was usually speed in them, which caused her to stop doing the substance all together for quite awhile.

On vacation she tried MDMA for the first time, granted set and setting were very new and she hadn't done ecstasy for quite some time, but for those among us who are not used to pure MDMA and/or haven't used it in awhile, it can indeed catch one off guard. One personally hates the stereotype of always being "loved up," or always feeling speedy, as she doesn't think MDMA is "always" anything and that it is a much more diverse substance, from what she has felt personally and heard from friends or read from others.

She thinks that when people don't feel certain things that are often attributed to MDMA/ecstasy, it can worry them or make them wonder rather than be able to go with it (not referring to OP personally on that, just a general/personal observation). Of course it is good to question and make sure one has the right substance, but with the onset and duration, dosage, and using a trusted source it really does not sound like that is the issue. But of course it sounds like things went well!! So that's good.. And when things like the taste, the appearance, dosage range, time of onset, and length/duration are consistent with a drug, it seems a situation in which speculation about it being the "wrong" substance are unsubstantiated.. (granted there's no way to ever know for sure unless one tests their product, but most don't have those resources)

Not sure about the amp cross tolerance, but either way it was enjoyable so I wouldn't be too worried as it sounds like one was right on. Am interested if anyone knows more about this.. a friend has been explaining a little to me about MDMA and drug tests, the structure and why its metabolite would show up as amphetamine/meth-amphetamine (which I initially believed to be caused by ingesting pills laced with amps, but apparently it really does show up on its own..) so maybe he knows more about tolerance with amps and MDMA, I'll ask.. But as for one's experience, every roll is unique and as long as it was enjoyable, it doesn't seem too farfetched to me..

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by stoneinfocus

Not to forget about pills containing appreciable amounts of MDA within the MDMA, resulting from the precursors...

Say what?

Could you please provide a reference to back up this claim?

[thenightwatch]

Strange...

I have never taken MDMA, however, a few days ago in a dream I had (seriously here), I had decided to take MDMA for the first time with my mother and a friend of mine. In the dream, my friend was breaking up a pile of weed on our kitchen table, and while watching his hands and forearm, noticed the "frames" vision effect that you mentioned above.

In the dream, I was able to examine the visuals and his hands very closely, and slow down time a little. What I realized in the dream was that my "image" of my vision would "saturate" with color/brightness in a typical psychedelic fashion, and then flicker back to baseline, just to repeat itself, and this was the cause the "frames" effect.

Odd, I had sort of forgotten about the dream until I read your post tonight.

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by radiometer

Say what?

Could you please provide a reference to back up this claim?

this was a very general statement, and one has a good chance in buying pills of pure MDMA and pills of MDA or a mix of the latter.I guess we don´t need to go into the subject of illicit production and the black-market selling of pills, as this is what we´re fighting to have legally, but also the liberty to research on our own, so we take the latter to get about the illegality of obtaining the drugs we choose for our own.

[radiometer]

You should word your posts more carefully.

The implication in your first post was that, for some reason involving the precursors, chemists trying to make MDMA end up with a mixture of MDMA adulterated by "appreciable amounts" of MDA:

"pills containing appreciable amounts of MDA within the MDMA, resulting from the precursors."

This is absolutely not true.

Now, apparently this is not what you were trying to say, but this was definitely not clear after reading the first post. Whatever the case, thanks for posting again to clear that up.

[stoneinfocus]

Thanks, you´re right, it was definately not clear, it could be seen as this were always the case, but which apparently isn´t.

Because of your answere I was thinking about how pure can MDMA be obtained? I mean commercially and legally, I was thinking about that, while reading a patent for MDMA manufacturing. And then I was thinking about a claim of a source, which told that their amphetamine sulfate were of 80% puritity.

Not talking about ee (enantiomeric excess) and racemates, but I guess the compounds of amphetamines can be synthesised up to 100% of purity, right?

[radiometer]

My point was that it is never the case that someone trying to make MDMA with the proper precursors ends up with a mixture of MDMA and MDA. The reason that such mixtures are available on the market in tablet form is simply that someone deliberately decided, for whatever reason, to physically mix the two chemicals together - it has nothing to do with the synthesis whatsoever.

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by moda00

But as for one's experience, every roll is unique and as long as it was enjoyable, it doesn't seem too farfetched to me..

You're right, and I think that's what made the experience more enjoyable. He was expecting certain effects, but he got others and like you said took him off guard in a good way, making the whole trip very very interesting. Hard to forget indeed.

He has to confess he was in state of anticipation before taking the E, knowing he had been taking amphetamine the whole week and worried it would affect the experience. He was also trying to keep the situation under control as none of his friends know nor his GF knows about dog chemical experiments. All this could have affected the roll.

The great thing about it is that he never panicked, even when he was tripping he was rational and could pass as sober, and of course, there was no comedown whatsoever.

[bineon]

SWIM is prescribed to Adderall and has noticed MDMA to be a much better experience after having taken it earlier in the day. Because it (dextroamphetamine, 1/2 of the contents of Adderall [the other 1/2 being it's levo- cousin]) is a monoamine reuptake inhibitor, neurotransmitters like 5-HT, 5-HTP, norepinephrine, and dopamine to bind to their receptors for a longer period of time, causing a mood lift in general and the effect of MDMA to be both heightened and prolonged (since it causes more 5-HT to bind to it's receptor, along with dopamine and also other various, unfound neurotransmitters.)