fill swim in on basics of seritonin........

[ihavequestions]

SWIM was wondering about seritonin and its different receptors.

he knows its responsible for hallucinations and mood. but MDMA causes a large release of seritonin yet causes little visual changes. does it effect different seritonin receptors that arent the seritonin receptors that cause hallucinations?

[Paracelsus]

There are different subtypes of sertonin receptors. MDMA releases serotonin into synapses, and psychedelics generally bind and activate the 5HT-2A receptor subtype (they are "5HT-2A agonists").

Information about serotonin's role in the brain can be found here:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=3998&catid=69
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=3721&catid=69
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=3365&catid=69

Basic information about neuropharmacology (the science that studies how drugs act in the brain) should probably be taken from textbooks (available from major online book suppliers).

[UnderFaz]

SERTs (serotonin receptors) are in various areas of the brain and nervous systems. mdma stops these receptors from taking serotonin from the nerves and storing it for later use. it also releases serotonin from the receptors. this is why there are after effects. there is less serotonin stored in the SERTs

[bineon]

The subject is still possibly hazy for the OP so I will attempt to clarify as best as possible.

Serotonin (5-HT) is a mood regulating neurotransmitter found in the body of animals and humans. It's basic functions are to be stored in the synapses for release at a later time (ie. when there is positive stimulus such as a good thing happening to you). I am under the impression that 5-HT is converted to melatonin also to be stored for a later time (literally later; Melatonin is a sleep regulator).

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (and it's variants; MDxx) basically causes the 5-HT in your brain to be reversed in the storage process and pumps it to the synapse from inside the cell. Basically what this means is, when your serotonin is stored you feel no different, but if it's released (as a good stimuli would cause it to do) all at once, you feel very very different.

The only difference from MDMA and the natural human body's release of 5-HT is that MDMA releases it at once and mostly depletes it; this is what causes post-roll depression. If the human body has no 5-HT stored, it has none to release when you should feel happy.

To counteract MDMA's effects on 5-HT, you can pre- and post-dose with a 5-HTP vitamin supplement. As 5-HT by itself does not cross the blood-brain barrier, 5-HTP is required to cause an increase in 5-HT. It is a good idea after rolling to take some (~100mg) after the crash, and then the days after. This will cause a general increase in 5-HT in your brain and get you back to normal faster.

[Paracelsus]

Regarding post #3: SERT means serotonin transporter, not serotonin receptor. SERT is the reuptake carrier of serotonin; serotonin receptors are proteins on the surface of the neuron at the other end of the synapse ("postsynaptic") that react to serotonin and other agonists by sending an impulse to the neuron.

[bineon]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

Regarding post #3: SERT means serotonin transporter, not serotonin receptor. SERT is the reuptake carrier of serotonin; serotonin receptors are proteins on the surface of the neuron at the other end of the synapse ("postsynaptic") that react to serotonin and other agonists by sending an impulse to the neuron.

Is my assertion that 5-HT converts into 5-MA (Melatonin) within the brain correct? I did read this somewhere and it certainly makes sense.

[Paracelsus]

Yes, it is correct, as far as I know. Melatonin is 5-methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine, which would be O-methyl-N-acetylserotonin.

[bineon]

So since the brain has nothing to convert into melatonin, sleep comes very hard for those who have used MDMA the same night... ?

[RaverHippie]

Or the fact that MDMA is a stimulant and keeps you up, that probably factors into the stimulating qualities.

[ihavequestions]

but why is it that LSD effects seritonin and causes hallucinations, but MDMA effects seritonin much more greatly without hallucinations? what does LSD and hallucinogens do differently that causes these hallucinations that MDMA doesnt do?

[RaverHippie]

LSD and hallucinogens act on a series of serotonin receptors which trigger different things where MDMA releases the serotonin.

[ihavequestions]

There are different subtypes of sertonin receptors. MDMA releases serotonin into synapses, and psychedelics generally bind and activate the 5HT-2A receptor subtype (they are "5HT-2A agonists").

does SWIY mind dumbing down what SWIY said down for me? what swiy said sounds short and accurate but swim doesnt realy understand specificaly what swiy means. does swiy mean that MDMA releases seritonin in general whereas psychedelics activates the specific subtype that causes hallucinations?

[bineon]

Seratonin is a natural chemical produced in the brain that stimulates the 5-HT receptors in the brain. LSD and psilocybin act on some of those same receptors in place of the seratonin. They basically take over the seratonin's job on these receptors and effectively replace their binding to them. They do different things to the receptors than 5-HT (seratonin) does, sometimes causing hallucinations.

MDMA only causes much of the 5-HT in your brain to be released, and does not itself bind to any of the 5-HT receptors.

Or the fact that MDMA is a stimulant and keeps you up, that probably factors into the stimulating qualities.

Even after MDMA is below threshold concentration in the blood, one still remains restless. The same is not true of drugs such as Amphetamine and Methamphetamine (after it wears off you crash and become very very sleepy; Insomnia is not associated with these drugs wearing off as it is with MDMA.)

KTHX.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by bineon

Seratonin is a natural chemical produced in the brain that stimulates the 5-HT receptors in the brain. LSD and psilocybin act on some of those same receptors in place of the seratonin. They basically take over the seratonin's job on these receptors and effectively replace their binding to them. They do different things to the receptors than 5-HT (seratonin) does, sometimes causing hallucinations.

MDMA only causes much of the 5-HT in your brain to be released, and does not itself bind to any of the 5-HT receptors.

Even after MDMA is below threshold concentration in the blood, one still remains restless. The same is not true of drugs such as Amphetamine and Methamphetamine (after it wears off you crash and become very very sleepy; Insomnia is not associated with these drugs wearing off as it is with MDMA.)

KTHX.

MDMA does more than "only causes much of the 5-HT in your brain to be released" MDMA actually has weak affinity for 5-HT2A receptors and releases dopamine directly in addition to indirect release caused by serotonin binding. Insomnia with MDMA could result from a combination of the stimulant effects, especially when dopamine: serotonin ratio increases towards the end of the experience and depletion of serotonin. Not everyone is very sleepy after amp/meth use. SWIM has experienced plenty of insomnia long after the main stimulant effects have worn off of either drug. Some of these drugs have the opposite effects on some people, such as meth making someone calm and relaxed with insomnia coming on the comedown. Amp/meth also release serotonin directly so it really depends on the brain chemistry of the user and the potency of the drug/amount taken.

SWIM can agree with SWIY on the LSD and psilocybin part and will add to it. Serotonin is produced in the body for specific purposes and will mostly result in natural effects, but it can produce hallucinogenic effects sometimes. LSD and psilocybin being foreign produce a different firing of the cell causing their effects, but can mimic normal serotonin function as well. SWIM has experienced pleasurable MDMA-like experiences from those drugs, which is what originally made him realize that the same receptors were involved in the effects of MDMA and LSD/psilocybin.

Reputation Comments on this post:

nicely explained

[bineon]

SwiHe said he wanted it simplified haha.

But yes that's the long version... ")

[TMM]

Originally Posted by ihavequestions

does SWIY mind dumbing down what SWIY said down for me? what swiy said sounds short and accurate but swim doesnt realy understand specificaly what swiy means. does swiy mean that MDMA releases seritonin in general whereas psychedelics activates the specific subtype that causes hallucinations?

As simply as possible, MDMA releases serotonin, whereas LSD mimics serotonin but is something different altogether.

Reputation Comments on this post:

simple and to the point :)