Side effects - adderal and procrastination

[thefinalcut]

Hello. I am new and have searched for answers for a friend under many forums but have not found anything relevant. I apologize in advance if this is a repeat.
Swim was diagnosed with ADD at age 19 but did not like side effects of ritalin. Now in mid 30's swim has been on adderal as well as tried other rx stimulants to treat ADD since it was causing noticable issues at work, home, parenting etc. Swim has been on meds for 3 years.
Swim initially was able to focus better on stimulant medication and at times became hperfocused, overproductive with a crash yet completion of task. Currently, swim is taking prescribed 10 mgs of adderal 2 times a day plus another 5 mgs mid afternoon. Swim finds that adderal is no longer helping with focus. Instead they procrastinate more. Although swim feels physically energetic it is hard for them to get motivated on any required project. Swim also does not experience common desire to jump from project to project.
Swim is frustrated because they have energy but can't focus enough on tasks that need to be done nor is swim sucked into hyperfocus on irrelevant tasks.
Has anyone dealt with sudden onset of same level of energy on stimulant but lack of the beneficial ability to focus and organize and instead being left energized yet unmotivated? The rush is there as is the impulsive and carefree side effects. Swim does not deny enjoying the rush of energy but feels frustrated that nothing is getting done and the to do list is piling up.

Thanks for any advice you can offer to pass on to swim.

[Beanfondler]

For Swibf the stims always provide the increased focus, motivation, interest and such. The relative attractiveness of different tasks isn't something altered. Amphs and most stims in general make it a great deal easier to remain undistracted in your focus on a given distraction. Theres the increased productivity and longevity, but Swibfs still usually required to rid other distractions from the environment or it will have all been misdirected.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	i agree
	Exactly, too many people ignore the environmental factors and then don't understand why the adderall isn't helping!

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by Beanfondler

For Swibf the stims always provide the increased focus, motivation, interest and such. The relative attractiveness of different tasks isn't something altered. Amphs and most stims in general make it a great deal easier to remain undistracted in your focus on a given distraction. Theres the increased productivity and longevity, but Swibfs still usually required to rid other distractions from the environment or it will have all been misdirected.

Not quite sure if I understand the wording correctly or not, but if I think you are trying to say what you are, then you are 100% correct, at least in SWIM's pet hamster. The little guy can become extremely focused on distractions... something that the hamster has to keep in mind. For example, SWIM"s hamster is a pretty smart for a furry little creature and attends university when I let him out of his cage. When in class SWIM's hamster get's the most out of ADD medication, however after the hamster returns home from university and is put back into his cage, suddenly it is very easily to find "distractions" to focus on rather than more urgent tasks.

[Beanfondler]

Yeah Swibf was speaking along the same line of thought.

[UpAllNiteOCXTC]

yea, swim has a hard time seein how so many people clean and stay active while on adderall. swim cant seem to get away from the computer...endless research, just reading about the randomest things. prob cus her stomach feels so shitty she doesnt wanna move.

swim also will know she has to do something, and will stop and think about it. before she knows it , several minutes have gone by and swim is just sitting there in a stupor, twirling her hair.

[Beanfondler]

You've got to force yourself to leave the distraction hysteria present on the World Wide Web. Swibfs been known to have 12-24hr periods melt into nothingness if he allows himself to load his pipe whilst seated in his office chair.

[UpAllNiteOCXTC]

does swiy enjoy adderall? and if so, what does swiy like to do?

[Beanfondler]

Swibfs been prescribed 3x30mg generic amphetamine salt combo for a while. He doesn't really ever consume anything beyond the prescribed dosage. When Swibfs in the mood to tweak he'll consult the chem gods and wait for the MA fairies to leave him a present in his evaporating dish.

[UpAllNiteOCXTC]

intense. lol

UpAllNiteOCXTC added 3 Minutes and 3 Seconds later...

and, as im sure swiy knows, a person with ADD/ADHD taking adderall will not tweak because it has opposite effects. Thats how swim knows she doesnt have it. Swim thinks sufferers of ADD are, for lack of better words, scatterbrained, and adderall helps them keep on task?

[Beanfondler]

Swibf personally finds the ADHD business to be a pile of ripe feces. Amphetamines increase focus and mental clarity in everyone to the same degree. Swibf knows for a fact that he does not have this supposed ADHD he simply wasn't satisfied with the inability to manage dopamine levels.

Amphetamines keep everyone on task(the most attractive one at least).

[UpAllNiteOCXTC]

just as we all have depression and anxiety to a certain degree. it's called life

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by Beanfondler

Swibf personally finds the ADHD business to be a pile of ripe feces. Amphetamines increase focus and mental clarity in everyone to the same degree. Swibf knows for a fact that he does not have this supposed ADHD he simply wasn't satisfied with the inability to manage dopamine levels.

Amphetamines keep everyone on task(the most attractive one at least).

and, as im sure swiy knows, a person with ADD/ADHD taking adderall will not tweak because it has opposite effects. Thats how swim knows she doesnt have it. Swim thinks sufferers of ADD are, for lack of better words, scatterbrained, and adderall helps them keep on task?

SWIM was diagnosed with ADD or ADHD when only 5 years old, but never put on meds for it. SWIM went through her whole life feeling that the ADD/ADHD was a crock 95% of the time. It only seemed to reason that anyone would have increased focus and attention, thus do better in school, resulting in happy parents. But as an adult, 20 years after diagnosis, and after returning to college SWIM was getting very good grades, but suddenly found one course that gave her some problems... Well, a particular professor that there was just no possible way for SWIM to stay attentive. As a result, SWIM became slightly depressed and anxieties increased. SWIM finally went to see a shrink for some decent anxiety pills (benzos), but also asked for a full evaluation. After sitting down and talking for almost an hour about anxiety problems, the Dr. asked out of the blue if SWIM had ever been tested for ADD. SWIM said well, actually like 20 years ago... This doctor had been taking notes and making observations about SWIM the whole time. SWIM still was not convinced he wanted to try any ADD meds, but the dr. handed over the sheet of observations and SWIM realized that the dr. had observed things about SWIM that she'd known about herself all of her life, and things that other people had told her, but just asssumed them to be part of her personality.

SWIM had always thought that being "scatter brained" was part of her personality. It was not until after trying the ADD meds, that SWIM realized much difference it really made. It was like a part of SWIM's brain that had been suppressed was suddenly unlocked.

While SWIM still is not a big fan of stimulants, or there use for this supposed "ADD", she is doing much much better with them. SWIM does not agree with the statement,

Amphetamines increase focus and mental clarity in everyone to the same degree.

While largely over prescribed, over-diagnosed, etc there are people who really are helped to an enormous degree by these meds. SWIM has known several hamsters that found the doses SWIM has been taking to have little effect or benefit if any. Outside of school, SWIM doesn't find them all that useful, except in occasional situations. SWIM really does not like stimulants therefore does not take them all the time... SWIM goes on vacation, then they are of little use to SWIM. Just SWIMHO

[Beanfondler]

Swibf was more so refuting the extent of the problem. Though an individual with a genuine attention impairment effectively has the same result as that experienced by Mr. Normal.

[Laudaphun]

This is a tough one... SWIM does agree with SWIY on the fact that they basically do the same thing to everyone, in that they increase focus, attention, and energy. But if someone has issues with attention to begin with, or is just plain scatter-brained like SWIM is (absent-minded maybe a better word). I guess what SWIM meant was she feels that they will increase attention, focus, and concentration in an individual that has issues with these things to a greater degree than "Mr. or Ms. Normal", ultimately resulting in the same level of focus. Not sure if that makes sense or not the way SWIM said it. 2 people take the same pill, one with no attention issues and the other one having difficulties remaining focused. Say you rate their starting focus level on a scale of 1-10, with 5 being average. Say the person with problems focusing would be rated at a level of 2-3 and the average person at 5. Given the meds, both end up at say, 8. While the same end effect is achieved as SWIY stated, the person that started out at 2-3 would have gained more focus than the normal person. SWIM is probably just confusing everyone. Basically SWIM is agreeing with you, "she thinks". now that she "thinks" she understands better what SWIY meant, but just trying to explain better what SWIM herself meant.

Edit 5/14/08: Of course this is merely a hypothetical situation and none of the above is taking into consideration individual differences and responses to these drugs. It is just an example trying to illustrate that 2 different people "might" have different degrees of benefit from the same drug. Many other factors as stated in a response to this post would need to be taken into consideration when determining how someone might react to an ADD/ADHD drug.

Honestly, SWIM doesn't really know what normal is or how to even compare a "supposed" normal person with someone who "supposedly" has ADD. SWIM still doesn't really feel that ADD is a valid term for a disorder, but rather something devised to help the masses understand something deeper and far more complex, in addition to being something that allows doctors to be more easily able to prescribe stimulants, as using "speed" to help one just stay awake or more alert has become more stigmatized than it has been in the past as in today's world, unless you have a disorder you are viewed as a drug abuser for using a amphetamines to help with alertness and focus. SWIM is getting into something that is more complicated than she meant to, so will just stop now.

While SWIM isn't saying that there are not people who have a deficit of attention, ADD or ADHD are far to broad and generalized terms to warrant the use of things like amphetamines and methylphenidate. SWIM feels that the terms ADD and ADHD be thrown out the window and revised. I mean, ADHD... jeeze how many children are not hyperactive and inattentive when they are 5 years old? SWIM would say that most are at younger ages, but eventually grow out of it. But since they get diagnosed so young and put on meds, that they stay on... SWIM really has a hard time coming up with an opinion one way or another on this matter. I mean, I personally think it's crazy that 5 year old kids are being prescribed the same doses of this stuff that SWIM is as a 27 year old adult. Then by the time they get to college age, they've been taking the stimulants for so long that they don't work nearly as well (assuming they still need them or even needed them in the first place) when it really matters. Kids should be able to just have fun when they are in grade school and not be so pressured to earn high grades. Not that getting good grades isn't a good thing when young, but they are going to be stressed out enough over grades as they get older if and when they go to or prepare to go to a university. After talking with several friends who teach elementary school and arguing with them about the whole ADHD thing, they have convinced SWIM that they can cite an example of a child who has behavior problems and ADHD meds totally seemed to correct this, but these are typically rare and very specific instances.

On a final note, it took SWIM a long time to come to grasp the difference between drug use and drug abuse. It was not until reaching a ways into adulthood that SWIM learned to use prescription meds responsibily and that they really were helpful if used in this manner. SWIM probably isn't the only one. Because of that, SWIM is very very thankful that she was never prescribed these meds or any other as a kid. SWIM always thought she knew best and that she could self-medicate herself.

SWIM just realized that her post has nothing to do with the original topic but... she has her last final exam in 5 hours and woke up about 2 hours ago to begin studying for it. Why is SWIM typing a post here at this particular time? haha Yep, definitely gotta watch for getting too focused on those distractions. Positives and negatives to everything I guess.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Laudaphun

This is a tough one... SWIM does agree with SWIY on the fact that they basically do the same thing to everyone, in that they increase focus, attention, and energy. But if someone has issues with attention to begin with, or is just plain scatter-brained like SWIM is (absent-minded maybe a better word). I guess what SWIM meant was she feels that they will increase attention, focus, and concentration in an individual that has issues with these things to a greater degree than "Mr. or Ms. Normal", ultimately resulting in the same level of focus. Not sure if that makes sense or not the way SWIM said it. 2 people take the same pill, one with no attention issues and the other one having difficulties remaining focused. Say you rate their starting focus level on a scale of 1-10, with 5 being average. Say the person with problems focusing would be rated at a level of 2-3 and the average person at 5. Given the meds, both end up at say, 8. While the same end effect is achieved as SWIY stated, the person that started out at 2-3 would have gained more focus than the normal person. SWIM is probably just confusing everyone. Basically SWIM is agreeing with you, "she thinks". now that she "thinks" she understands better what SWIY meant, but just trying to explain better what SWIM herself meant.

I think that is oversimplifying it, not least because of the variation in effects experienced between persons with different sub-types of ADHD and even persons within those diagnostic groupings. Everyone reacts differently, and environmental factors make a big difference. Swim finds that if he is in a library room or somewhere else with no distractions and is stuck with only his work he accomplishes a great deal, and he accomplishes way more with the help of amphetamines. If he is doing work near a computer, like in his bedroom or somewhere else where he is used to doing all sorts of things other than work, he finds that the amphetamines make it even harder to focus on one thing at a time and he is less productive than if he didn't take any meds and tried to just work on the task at hand. Its hard to qualify 'improvements' in focus or concentration from adderall as set and setting are major factors that determine to what extent the drug will be beneficial or harmful to productivity, regardless of neurological / pharmacological factors.

I also disagree with the idea that someone with more difficulty concentrating will achieve the same level of focus as someone without difficulty who also took adderall. The person who doesn't have difficulty concentrating may become too speedy and lose focus, and the same can also happen to the person with ADD. Amphetamines affect people differently regardless of whether they have ADD or not, and it may be harder for someone with ADD to get optimal efficacy out of their meds than for someone without ADD because the person without ADD doesn't have the psychological hurdles to get over. Adderall doesn't magically improve your productivity, it just makes your mind-set more conducive to productive activity (and also to unproductive activity, which is why many people have trouble with procrastination and wasting time with useless tasks) and you still need the motivation and willpower to make the use of this improvement. Thats why I feel that someone without ADD would probably get better results from amphetamines than someone with ADD (doses would likely be different), but its impossible to tell without proper studies on the matter as we are all commenting on such theoretical comparisons based only on our subjective perceptions of ourselves, others, and the drug itself.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Articulation of relevant opinion of admirable depth.

[Beanfondler]

Swibf did not intend to imply that everyone will receive an equal benefit from the the consumption of amphetamines. He was simply stating an opinion of his that the "common" knowledge that amphetamines some how work differently in the ADHD brain than the normal brain is false and based on nothing of value in the way of research etc... The benefit received is completely dependent on the individual, but the effect on the individual is exactly the same only differing in the benefit related to the baseline and given task desired to be attended to. There is an optimum level of focus relative to any given task that Swiy would like to be focused on. Tasks that are more broader in thought and complexity are nearly impossible to accomplish if the optimal level of amphetamine enhanced focus is surpassed; too much focuse will be directed at minor components of the overall task, hygiene/house keeping related tasks, or anything else being more simplistic in nature.

The way Swibfs come to see it there are three levels of amphetamine enhanced focus each of which is based directly on dosage and qualitatively on the complexity of tasks one is capable of performing. He would assign the tasks of the given levels to examples in each of the four levels starting with the lowest as follows... Writing a term paper or something similary complex which requires an output of some kind (words, numbers, etc...). Cramming for final examinations or a general submersion in some sort of information medium. The last would be limited to the stereotypical tweaker activities such as organizing one's trash, intense uninterable self grooming, and other tasks void of nearly any conceptual analysis or breadth. He likes to think that something along the same lines is present for most

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Beanfondler

There is an optimum level of focus relative to any given task that Swiy would like to be focused on. Tasks that are more broader in thought and complexity are nearly impossible to accomplish if the optimal level of amphetamine enhanced focus is surpassed; too much focuse will be directed at minor components of the overall task, hygiene/house keeping related tasks, or anything else being more simplistic in nature.

This is what swim has found on numerous occasions. He would start working on a paper whilst on addy, and next thing you know he would have 30-40 pages of research notes and outlines for a 10-15 page paper and his mind would be so over the map he couldn't focus on a single coherent thread of reasoning. Trying to write the paper in such a state is even worse, as swim would focus on the disparate arguments so intensely he would lose sight of the big picture. This isn't even to mention the feeling swim gets that adderall dulls his creative means of reasoning and expression, or the combination of obsessing over the minute paired with increased distractibility (and easily achieved hyperfocus) leading to extensive procrastination and time wasting. Swim finds adderall great for cleaning up and organizing the house, getting weekly and monthly schedules and to-do lists set up, multi-tasking (with related tasks), or doing research on specific topics for a project; however, he tries to stay away from being on adderall too much when actually doing larger projects as he finds his memory gets even worse and he easily loses sight of the big picture, making it all too easy to get bogged down in the minor details that overwhelm his mind.

Note that the above descriptions mostly convey swim's perspective of a multitude of occasions over the past year, and that when he would only use 5-10mg of adderall with piracetam (and sometimes kava to help chill him out more) he wouldn't have these problems with excessive distractibility and ability to enter hyperfocus (which really screws him because he loses all track of the time he is spending on little things that don't matter). Swim still has a script, but he will no longer take the prescribed doses (and isn't taking any regularly anymore) as aside from basic organizing tasks and tasks requiring high levels of sustained mental energy (but which are focused on something specific, say math problems as opposed to a paper synthesizing research) he finds the adderall can often be more harmful to productivity than helpful, for all the aforementioned reasons.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by Bajeda

I think that is oversimplifying it, not least because of the variation in effects experienced between persons with different sub-types of ADHD and even persons within those diagnostic groupings. Everyone reacts differently, and environmental factors make a big difference. Swim finds that if he is in a library room or somewhere else with no distractions and is stuck with only his work he accomplishes a great deal, and he accomplishes way more with the help of amphetamines. If he is doing work near a computer, like in his bedroom or somewhere else where he is used to doing all sorts of things other than work, he finds that the amphetamines make it even harder to focus on one thing at a time and he is less productive than if he didn't take any meds and tried to just work on the task at hand. Its hard to qualify 'improvements' in focus or concentration from adderall as set and setting are major factors that determine to what extent the drug will be beneficial or harmful to productivity, regardless of neurological / pharmacological factors.

I also disagree with the idea that someone with more difficulty concentrating will achieve the same level of focus as someone without difficulty who also took adderall. The person who doesn't have difficulty concentrating may become too speedy and lose focus, and the same can also happen to the person with ADD. Amphetamines affect people differently regardless of whether they have ADD or not, and it may be harder for someone with ADD to get optimal efficacy out of their meds than for someone without ADD because the person without ADD doesn't have the psychological hurdles to get over. Adderall doesn't magically improve your productivity, it just makes your mind-set more conducive to productive activity (and also to unproductive activity, which is why many people have trouble with procrastination and wasting time with useless tasks) and you still need the motivation and willpower to make the use of this improvement. Thats why I feel that someone without ADD would probably get better results from amphetamines than someone with ADD (doses would likely be different), but its impossible to tell without proper studies on the matter as we are all commenting on such theoretical comparisons based only on our subjective perceptions of ourselves, others, and the drug itself.

You are correct in that SWIM did greatly oversimplify it, and to the point where she needs to go back and edit it.

But intentionally did so in regards to the original post she was replying to which did not take any of the very, very true factors SWIY has illustrated, just to try and explain why she thought that while 2 people might attain the same level of focus, they might not have started from the same point. SWIM only intended to illustrate a specific example, but erroroneously tried to explain it by making a broad generalization which is not the correct way to do so. She was merely trying to argue against the statement:

Amphetamines increase focus and mental clarity in everyone to the same degree.

SWIM notices as well the counterproductive effect of (well not amph, but MPH) when in her bedroom if she is not careful. Of couse, if she is overwhelmed with work she tends to gravitate more towards tasks at hand opposed to distractions. While focus, motivation, and such all increase she needs to be very careful and make sure she is "typing her paper" as opposed to typing responses to posts on DF

And also SWIM too finds that when sitting in a lecture, or alone with her work and nothing else, and no one else is when MPH is most useful for her. SWIM did also notice a very strange reaction that just sort of came out of the blue yesterday... She took her max dose of MPH but instead of increasing motivation as usual, SWIM didn't feel like doing anything. SWIM noticed fairly rapid heart rate, but was relaxed, alert, but the normal motivation she expected was absent. Never had that happen before... SWIM ended up just laying down in bed for 2 hours, and only after effects peaked and began to fade did normal effects appear.

Appologies for the bad example, will leave it there but add an edit to the post.