ketamine tolerance

[Niteflights]

I have been wondering about this for a while. Most individuals report that after prolonged regular use of ketamine, the more profound aspects of the experience diminish. This tolerance however seems to be permanent, or at least very long with reports that even after one year or more of abstinence, the experience is still diminished. Generally this type of tolerance only occurs with somewhat heavy use, i.e. daily for a month or more. Some users report that even after years, the magic is gone.

John Lilly is known to have used ketamine in prodigious amounts for many decades. One report states he injected on the hour for weeks. He continually documented his experiences. Somehow he never reported the commonly experienced diminishing return, even though he continued use right until his death.

This is unusual. Anyone care to shed some light?
Andrei

[dave-o]

Well here's my sloth's experience, over about 6-7 years.

Only one true k-hole experience is possible every 4-7 days.

After the first hole, one's tolerance is such that even a huge dose (and my sloth has tried huge doses) will not return him to the other dimension properly.

Sometimes, as long as he's had no more K, after 4 days he can visit the hole again, provided he has a large dose.

After a week, a hole is pretty much guaranteed from a normal dose.

In my sloth's experience, there is no tolerance issue after a week of non-use. It takes the same amount to visit the hole after a week as it does after a year.



However, i would like to add another question, if you don't mind:

My sloth has only ever taken it nasally. If he were to take it IM would he become less tolerant? He suspects that part of the problem is that his sinuses get so messed up after the first couple of lines that they stop functioning properly.

[Silentscream]

Originally Posted by dave-o

He suspects that part of the problem is that his sinuses get so messed up after the first couple of lines that they stop functioning properly.

Swims sinuses are very sensitive and he finds it impossible to get past 4 lines.

when he first started using K, snorting was enough to reach the K hole, but he now cant achieve it this way.

Swim has found oral use to be the answer, and swim believes that his sinuses must be less efficient at absorbing the K than they were when he first started (snorting things over the years has given swim nasty problems with his nose). although higher doses are needed. Swim tells me the hole is less crazy, but lasts much longer.

Perhaps then, to the snorters, a new method of administration would help to bring back the lost magic?

[dave-o]

OOI how much does your friend drink?
And how does that compare to the amount it used to take to reach the hole when he was snorting?

[Lettish]

Swim feels he has already lost the magic, after using Ketamine a half-dozen times. His best experience with it was his second time, and that was after a night using ecstasy. Very recently Swim used ketamine after ecstasy for the second time (but fifth or sixth time using ketamine), but it was no-where near as good as the first time with E.

Swim is really disappointed and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps he just needs a higher dose. He has the strongest visuals after using ecstasy but recently all that would happen was drifting in and out of CEVs, not deep at all (unlike his first time with E).

Swim thinks like with everything the novelty wears off and users get used to it. Swiy has to make it interesting.

[dave-o]

Originally Posted by Lettish

Swim is really disappointed and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps he just needs a higher dose. He has the strongest visuals after using ecstasy but recently all that would happen was drifting in and out of CEVs, not deep at all (unlike his first time with E).
.

My sloth would recommend that your friend take a couple of weeks off and then go for a high dose. Either all at once straight off (1/4 of a gram up each nostril being my sloth's guaranteed ticket to the k-hole) or split up into 4 lines, taken within 15 minutes of each other.

[Lettish]

My Swim laughs because he gets nervous before administering the goods (Swim's peferred method is insufflating). Swim doesn't have scales, he just eyeballs it. He pours out a fair amount and just chops it until he thinks sufficient. Worried that he will overdose (take too much) Swim spreads it out over 1.5hrs, so maybe time is acting against him.

[dave-o]

My sloth has seen people take ridiculous amounts (usually due to the fact that they have become so tolerant that they feel they need that much), often 2g or more at a time*.
Although they've not neccesarily had a good time, they certainly haven't overdosed. K has a very low toxicity, hence why they use it for children as well as horses (which have very delicate nervous systems).

Slothy believes that it is practically impossible to overdose on K (unless injecting) as the amount one can fit up a nostril makes it impossible to take that much.

And yes i do believe that time is acting against your friend, as for my sloth at least tolerance seems to build up in an hour or two. Go large, go fast. But make sure your friend is aware of his limits.


*Slothy doesn't recommend this

[Silentscream]

I asked him, he says he took 400mg in a gelcap. He remembers it took around 15 minutes to kick in, came on very slowly, but was very intense.

Prior to this he says a Khole would be achieved through nasal use of around 150-200mg.

He feels it is worth using more and getting a longer Khole to avoid the blocked, sore nose the next day.

I have researched oral use on this forum and it would appear most users do not reccomend it as ketamine is converted into Norketamine when ingested. This supposedly creates a more profound anaesthetic effect minus the cool headspace.

I put this to swim and he says he couldnt really tell the difference, except for the aforementioned reduced 'craziness' of the Khole, and the longer duration.

[Niteflights]

Regarding the route, yes it does seem clear that the injectable routes cause higher and longer lasting tolerance. SWIM has never done IV, but he reported IM will K-hole reliably while snorting is almost impossible to cross the line regardless of the amount.

Regarding line doses (k-hole) in general, I think it is difficult to compare nasal to injection. The speed at which the ketamine hits the NDMA receptors must be key. The slow ramp up caused by nasal administration probably gives the subsystem time to know what to expect, then even if you IM or IV you won't get cross the line. The difference between injecting and snorting is profound, and more than just intensity, usually a different order of effects and much cleaner.

Safe diving!
Andrei

If he were to take it IM would he become less tolerant?

[k-explorer]

SWIM's experience is clouded by getting his K from different suppliers. It may be that the first source was pure and subsequent sources have been less pure. (This is actually quite likely as the first source was a fellow psychonaut and subsequent sources have been club dealers, who tend to cut more.)

However, SWIM's experience is that each time it takes a little more K to get to the same point, and over time it's become a little less magical. Over maybe 25 sessions over 4 years, SWIM has gone from taking 200mg per session to 2g+ per session and the results now are good but not as great as the first few times.

SWIM thinks there's another side to it too. Part of the magic of SWIM's first K experiences was the unfamiliarity and feeling of "oh wow, what's happening now?". SWIM understood new things for the first time and it really was life changing. The journey continues but the novelty does naturally wear off after a while and SWIM expects something magical to happen now. Does that make sense? It's still fun and there are still lessons but it's not as magical, because SWIM (mostly) knows what to expect.

SWIM is tempted to try higher doses but is worried about toxicity.

[Nose Dive]

My Bill hasn't found much or any tolerance building as such. After using it every day for a while he found it wasn't as strong but as he takes a break for at least a few months or weeks in-between it hasn't really affected him.