Extraction of caffeine from CWE solution - IT'S TRUE!

[SMBush]

dont want to deviate (never do That! lol) from your AC reduction technique, but what about bubbling CO2 gas through the aquious solution to precipitate the caffeenieweenie?

[sirris]

Hi all,

I'm moving over to this thread from my own similar thread,

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...056#post355056

Thanks to GotXP for the headsup.

There has been much discussion in this thread as to how to tell exactly how effective the AC filtering is. SWIM is doing a test on that right now. It's not massively scientific but it should shed some light on things.

Here's what's going on:

SWIM did a quick CWE on some ASA with codeine. The usual 2ml of water per pill on a batch of 200. This will left 400ml of water with codeine and caffeine as its main constituents.

Then came the AC filter (a long 1.5 inch tube with a paper coffee filters on the bottom and about 8 inches of (pre-wetted) AC at the bottom.

(As a side note, the filtering left SWIMs water smelling like sulphur/rotten eggs, although it still tasted exactly like it should. Anyone else notice a smell?)

So now there is the 400ml of filtered water. That should work out to about 350 - 400 mg of codeine per 100ml of water. SWIM, having been around the block, went for it (as an initial test). It definitely had the kick and SWIM is fairly confident that there is minimal codeine loss in the filtering (in fact due to fumbly fingers SWIM filtered it twice).

There was enough of an effect that SWIM still wondered if there was a significant amount of caffeine left (SWIM is very effected by caffeine).

So here comes the big test; SWIM goes back to Chromic's method (listed in the other thread).

The idea is to boil away (SWIM has done it at different temperatures and different amounts of starting water for differing amounts of time and it's always been worth doing, no significant loss of codeine effect, in SWIMs opinion (for those also wondering about how temperature may effect codeine)) the water and create a super-saturated solution of codeine, caffeine, etc. You then cool this in the fridge which causes the caffeine and etc to fall out of solution.

SWIM must point out that this can take some time (hours, days) and caffeine can even precipitate out after a few weeks stored in the fridge. It looks exactly how Chromic describes it; like cotton candy fluff. When it dries it has pearly kind of sheen to it.

SWIM filters out the precipitate by making a pressure filter out of a big syringe and a piece of Bounty towel folded up in a few layers and made the right size for the syringe (oh, and wet the towel and squeeze it out before you put it in the syringe).

SWIM has found this to be the best method for filtering it. It is neat though to see the stuff that looks like ice but that never melts sitting in a paper coffee filter.

Anyway, the boiling has been done and now SWIM will be watching over the next few days for the caffeine to precipitate out.

If nothing happens it may imply that there is nothing in the solution to fall out; so no caffeine? Hopefully.

I'm am interested in any questions or comments.

Thanks.

SirriS

sirris added 1124 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

So, having had the solution sitting in the fridge overnight, there are the beginnings of some precipitate, in the shape of snowflakes. I suspect that it is the caffeine remnants.

Now that there is some crystals in there it should speed up the forming of other crystals. We'll see how much though. I know, more or less, from previous experience what the average amount is (by eye-balling not weighing).

sirris added 1413 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

There is definitely some caffeine falling out. Enough that I'm seeing it collect up a decent amount. Still, so far, much less than without the AC filter. The final results might still take a few days.

I will also try to save the filtered caffeine and weigh it. Maybe, when I have more money, I can do a side-by-side experiment... maybe.

[intrance]

didnt work for me. much better is to wash with acetone before doing cwe.

[sirris]

Swim is inclined to agree that the AC filtering isn't really worth it. It did filter some of the caffeine out but there was still quite a bit precipitating out after dropping the amount of fluid; much more than hoped for.

Swim would still like someone to properly explain the use of acetone.

Swim thinks that it is kind of the reverse of a CWE, in that you keep the filter gunk after using the acetone and then CWE it. Is that right? And how much acetone per pill (talking the 8mg codeine ones)?

sirris added 133 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

-------------------

So after filtering with AC and then lowering the volume of the solution to cause the caffeine to fall out, and filtering that through a big syringe (with folded over and damp Bounty towels as the filter) and finally letting those paper towel bits dry out; SWIM crumbled the precipitate (hopefully mostly caffeine) and weighed it out.

200 x 8/15 = 600mg.

SWIM will try this without the AC next time to compare the difference in weight, if any.

[sirris]

-----------------------------------------

Edit:

That should have been 200 x 8/15 = 800mg of caffeine filtered and weighed.

[SunnyHours]

SWIM also noticed what seemed like caffeine precipitate at the bottom...

SWIM did a CWE on 38 pills and was left with a cloudy solution, acetaminophen with codeine phosphate. SWIM left that solution in the fridge for almost 2 days and was left with a clear, almost like water, and a lot of precipitate that SWIM thinks is caffeine...

He's not sure though but he thinks it's definitely caffeine precipitate...It's also the first time SWIM gets a clear, water like, solution...

That is SWIM's experience and he also had cleaner high...

[gotxp]

yeah swim was more curious case he like smokeable opiates... (had make some smokeable opium out of poppy seeds... and it was nice.. but too expensive and weak)... but yeah... AC filtering.. lets get serious about this.. and from now on in this forum on speak of this..

we need to formulate a test....

I mean swim could evaporate the water and see the weight of the remains.. but again this doesnt tell what was filtered out.. just amount

i mean.. one could do a taste test before and after... cause the absense of the caffeine should alter the flavor slightly.. but again.. codeine is so bitter this may not work either...

there are subjective tests as been done so far... but they are weak proof.. and quite subject to placebo...

hmm... does caffeine react with anything.. that codeine doesnt?...

or maybe we could looking to mechanism of AC and decide from there...I dunno these are just ideas coming to swims head

[Ethyl]

Finally someone made swims idea to the test


http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27246


I had this idea for allmost a year time.. and it seems to Work!!! Hooray!!!!!!

[0utrider]

well i think the best would really be if someone who was no or close to no tolerance (but earlier experiences) and finds out if it works or not, and how well. i guess a lot of codeine might be wasted, which wouldnt really matter, since this kind of filtering is only necessary if caffeine is present, if not, one might as well do the normal CWE in order to not loose more codeine

[gotxp]

here one with no tollerance... could take their lowest dose where they feel euphoria... do a cwe and an AC filter... then report..

if much of the codeine was lost they would feel no euphoria... if little was lost they would feel euphoria... im at this point convinced it removes most of the caffeine.. but even that could be reported back.. like someone who hasnt had coffee that day... with no tollerance kinda thing

[gotxp]

very interesting

[gotxp]

SWIMS CONCLUSION.. IT WORKS
----------read this, its for opium------------------
This is a well know publication:

1. An empty 55-gallon oil drum is placed on bricks about a foot above the ground and a fire is built under the drum. Thirty gallons of water are added to the drum and brought to a boil. Ten to fifteen kilograms of raw opium are added to the boiling water.
2. With stirring, the raw opium eventually dissolves in the boiling water, while soil, leaves, twigs, and other non-soluble materials float in the solution. Most of these materials are scooped out of the clear brown 'liquid opium' solution.
3. Slaked lime (calcium hydroxide), or more often a readily available chemical fertilizer with a high content of lime, is added to the solution. The lime converts the water insoluble morphine into the water soluble calcium morphenate. The other opium alkaloids do not react with the lime to form soluble calcium salts. Codeine is slightly water soluble and gets carried over with the calcium morphenate in the liquid. For the most part, the other alkaloids become part of the residual sediment 'sludge' that comes to rest on the bottom of the oil drum.
4. As the solution cools, and after the insolubles precipitate out, the morphine solution is scooped from the drum and poured through a filter of some kind. Burlap rice sacks are often used as filters. They are later squeezed in a press to remove most of the solution from the wet sacks. The solution is then poured into large cooking pots and re-heated, but not boiled.
5. Ammonium chloride is added to the heated calcium morphenate solution to adjust the alkalinity to a pH of 8 to 9, and the solution is then allowed to cool. Within one or two hours, the morphine base and the unextracted codeine base precipitate out of the solution and settle to the bottom of the cooking pot.
6. The solution is then poured off through cloth filters. Any solid morphine base chunks in the solution will remain on the cloth. The morphine base is removed from both the cooking pot and from the filter cloths, wrapped and squeezed in cloth, and then dried in the sun. When dry, the crude morphine base is a coffee-colored powder.
7. This 'crude' morphine base, commonly known by the Chinese term p'i-tzu throughout Southeast Asia, may be further purified by dissolving it in hydrochloric acid, adding activated charcoal, re-heating and re-filtering. The solution is filtered several more times, and the morphine (morphine hydrochloride) is then dried in the sun.
8. Morphine hydrochloride (still tainted with codeine hydrochloride) is usually formed into small brick-sized blocks in a press and wrapped in paper or cloth. The most common block size is 2 inches by 4 inches by 5 inches weighing about 1.3 kilograms (3 lbs). The bricks are then dried for transport to heroin processing laboratories.

------------------
notice the bolded sections.. first the opium is filtered with Activated carbon (aka activated charcoal), then after it is said to still be tainted with codeine hydrochloride...

seems very supportive!!

[0utrider]

would be nice if you could turn this into a manual for codeine so i can put it on my CWE faq

[gotxp]

im gonna do just a few more tests (swim will be busy tomorrow and tuesday with exams :S)... but, if hailthepoppy doesnt want to <since it was originally his idea>.. swim would be more than happy to write up a CWE-AC manual/tek if you'd like.

[0utrider]

yeah that would be great but a few more tests, especially about how much of codeine comes out, would be great

[gotxp]

after swims tuesday exam... he will take say 200 AC&C... CWE... then do a AC filter... then will evaporate... and see what he yield is... that may shed some light on the filter... or may not ...

does caffeine precipitate at a really low temp, where codeine stay soluble? perhaps a test could be formulated from this information... swim forgets where he say it..

[gotxp]

SWIM is kinda low on money for a bit so his test is gonna be pushed passed his next tuesday exam...

[Tranquil Toad]

So activated carbon can be found at any pet shop? SWIM has a very low/ non existent codeine tolerance, but has tried it in the past both by itself and with the CWE method containing caffeine, so I'm sure he would be ideal to test this on. Will report back within a week (hopefully tomorrow night if all goes well) to add another positive or negative review to this method. He's very excited as caffeine pretty much removes all possibility of a nod off codeine, which is a pretty weak nod by itself already.

[Tranquil Toad]

All right, SWIM just tried this method and dosed about an hour ago. Definite reduction in the caffeine, no jitters whatsoever. Codeine doesn't seem as strong as it should for this dose (250mg) but that is most likely due to SWIM's own sloppiness - he kept spilling water as he tried to funnel the solution through the carbon. He is going to try to be more careful next time and see how strong the codeine is. Hes going to give this a so far, however more codeine probably needs to be used as i'm guessing the carbon filters out some of it as well. That shouldn't be an issue, however, since a bottle of T1s is very cheap.

[0utrider]

so conclusion would be it works, but only recommenede for caffeine products, since more codeine gets filtered out than in a cwe, right?

[pixplzthx]

Yeah, before SWIM runs up to Canada for a bunch of AC&C a discussion of potency would be greatly appreciated.

[OhCasey]

I read an article or post about people who use carbon to filter homemade opiate products and they werent filtering out caffiene but impurities or chemicals that added before hand. Anyway the way it sounded was that the carbon grabbed what they wanted out and none of the opiates. I need to remember what it was but ive been reading so much lately i can barely remember what i need to. If it comes to me ill be back.

[Tranquil Toad]

Another small update: SWIM tried this method again tonight, but was much more careful and not much was spilled. Codeine seems just as strong as it does with the regular CWE, but no caffeine is felt at all . Seems filtering it through the carbon doesn't effect the codeine level very much at all.

[Ethyl]

Originally Posted by Tranquil Toad

Another small update: SWIM tried this method again tonight, but was much more careful and not much was spilled. Codeine seems just as strong as it does with the regular CWE, but no caffeine is felt at all . Seems filtering it through the carbon doesn't effect the codeine level very much at all.

Hoorray!!!!!
It works!!!! Yey!

But hey, i feel kinda overshadowed here.. After all i'm the one who got/published this idea for the first time ever as a solution for codeine CWEs...
I really i'm the one who should get the credits for this solution to the caffeine problem in codeine CWE. It was me who posted the idea for the first time ever on the net, and as you can see from the original post you can see that it just "grew" to that opinion...
Read the post here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27246
So i'm really not too presumptions and i'm really humble(not looking much so from judging of this post..) but i feel that i deserve the credits for this one.
After all it was me that first got a solution to the caffeine in the codeine CWEs.
If you think that i should get the credits feel free to express yourself or even add to my reputation if its your wish..

Just read the original post where for the first time online it was talked of using activated charcoal for removing the caffeine from codeine solutions..
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27246
Its from 17-05-2007.. and as you can see the idea just grew that day..
Thanks, Tranquil Toad and others, for testing my presented solution to the problem..

I'm glad that i contributed with something new to the opiophile comunity.. And i know deep inside that was me, and that is just what matters to me, but hey, i don't like other people taking the credits for me!

[intrance]

well it kinda worked, but im disappointed. deff filtered much codeine and still left enough caffeine to feel it. gonna try acetone wash next time.