SWIM would realy like to try mdma, but fears hppd.

[ihavequestions]

SWIM feels that trying MDMA a couple times would be an eye opening experience for him. he has some issues about the world that he feels could be cleared up with a few experiences with MDMA. however he also fears developing HPPD. the idea sounds awful considering there are many people who never recover and experience derealization and depersonalization along with visual symptoms for te rest of there life. swim also cant stand weed. its way too intense for him and makes him completely disoriented and is just not a pleasurable experience. swim is facing a dillemma here and doesnt know what to do.

swim also found this section in erowid about HPPD:

[top]4. What causes HPPD?

HPPD is defined to be caused by taking 'hallucinogenic' drugs, but its root cause is poorly understood. Dr. Henry Abraham ( a leading researcher in this area) believes that HPPD may be partially genetic though he says that he knows of no published evidence [personal communication - tacovan]. It seems to be most commonly related to LSD use, perhaps because LSD is the most common hallucinogen, but there are also reports of HPPD being caused by other psychedelics such as mushrooms, MDMA, MDA, 2CT7, 5-MEO-DiPT, etc. There are a few people who have HPPD-like symptoms who have never taken any drugs, but the definition of Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder does not include these individuals.

Based on anecdotal evidence HPPD subjects fall into two broad categories. A large percentage (probably the majority) got HPPD fairly early in their experimentation with hallucinogens. They also seem to get fairly severe cases of it. Dr. Abraham also confirms that this appears to be the case and says this is one of the reasons he believes HPPD to have genetic origins. For further information see (Abraham HD. Visual phenomenology of the LSD flashback. Arch Gen Psychiatry; 40: 884-889, 1983)

The second set of users are long-term drug users who got HPPD well into their experimentation with drugs. These people report that they get HPPD from a wide variety of drugs. Since most long-term users of multiple drugs also use LSD, it is hard to really distinguish what drugs are responsible for HPPD in these cases. However, there are a numerous reports of long-term drug users who had strong trips on non-LSD drugs which led immediately into HPPD symptoms.

Erowid has received over a dozen reports from ecstasy users who have reported significant visual disruptions after taking ecstasy that lasted for six or more weeks. (See MDMA Aftereffects)

[TMM]

Seriously? HPPD is a rare condition, usually brought about by traumautic experiences. It's also pretty rare for people to even have visuals on MDMA (pure stuff, rather than pills of uncertain content), and I've never heard of a case of HPPD resulting from its use.

As for weed, it's not uncommon for people to dislike it as SWIY does, but it sounds to me like SWIY is taking far too much too quickly, probably of a potent strain.

[bineon]

Your post was tl;dr.
Tell SWIY to not be a pussy; there is reason to be concerned about your monkey using MDMA but it has nothing to do with it developing HPPD. The following are concerns which I have about my dog using ecstasy:

1. Heart problems can be potentiated when using any stimulant (not just MDMA). Adderall (very commonly prescribed) is no exception to this rule.
2. Impure Ecstasy pills. Some contain simply non-fun things like caffeine, some contain PMA which puts your monkey at risk for death if you give them too much.
3. Suicide Tuesdays. (Rolling hangover, sucks)
4. Serotonin Syndrome (most often only occurs when used in combination with other serotonin-affecting chemicals)
5. Overheating/Dehydration (drink and don't be dumb when it comes to where your dog is using the X)
6. Overhydration (Hyponatremia). give your pet plenty water... But not too much.


If you're afraid of HPPD when using MDMA then I believe you should never allow your monkey to touch anything stronger than coffee when it comes to psychoactives. What I mean is, ecstasy isn't safe, but it certainly isn't unsafe for the reason you express.

[ihavequestions]

swim is a worrier, he found these site of people suffering from hppd and these people lives seem to be ruied from MDMA, LSD, RC's, shrooms and even weed http://www.hppdonline.com/forum/

it sounds horrible. yet he feel that maybe mdma can help give himself introspection on some personal issues.

[RaverHippie]

HPPD from MDMA is very rare. Even if it were to happen think of what the effects would be, it would be as if SWIY were rolling again. AKA enhanced empathy and love toward everyone... I know a few SWIM's that wouldn't mind that sort of thing to randomly happen to them.

[KomodoMK]

If SWIY take's a chemical thinking like that your setting yourself up for a bad/poor experience. As stated above HPPD is very rare, even more so with MDMA. SWIM would suggest you go into it with an open mind and no worries and enjoy the ride. SWIM can confirm (in his experience) that MDMA can help you answer a lot of questions in your own mind.

MDMA changed SWIM's life for the better is so many ways and would not be the person he his now without those experiences. MDMA isn't just another chemical, it is THE chemical. Hope SWIY has the same life changing experience SWIM had.

[drab4]

Hi. Swim has never met anyone who has experienced HPPD from mdma use. Most people he knows have used mdma many times, therefore Swim concludes that HPPD from mdma use must be pretty rare

Any visual disturbances (tracer type effects for example) will persist only as long as the drug is in effect. Swim has never heard of any case where the effects have lasted after the drug is out of the system

Sorry, I know this is a somewhat unscientific approach for Swim to take, but it's the best he can offer! Hope it's of some re-assurance anyway. If HPPD can be caused by mdma use, Swim's view is that it must be a very rare occurence

[pinkandfluffy]

do. not. worry. about HPPD and MDMA, the two don't go together. If you're REALLY worried, just don't take absolutely loads, and theres no way you'll get hallucinations anyway. Even if you do, hallucinations are pretty rare.

[KomodoMK]

Hallucinations are more likely to come from other substances in the pill or possibly mild visual from MDA. The worst you get from MDMA is usually some 'ghosting' or slight perception change of things at long distances.

[Paracelsus]

Taking drugs is taking risks. There is a risk of HPPD from MDMA, just like there is a risk of fatal allergic reaction to any drug.

The only relevant questions are:

How significant is the risk or how significant is it estimated/expected to be? (frequency)
Is there anything that can be done to reduce this risk? (harm reduction)
Am I willing to take this risk? (risk-benefit assessment)

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post.

[ihavequestions]

SWIM decided that if he does try it he will make sure its pure MDMA from a trusted source and he will start at a low dose and only do it a couple times just to "open his eyes". its just the idea of severe derealization, panic attacks, and on top of that a whole bunch of visual disturbances that all these HPPD sufferes report.

[bineon]

So you think that if SWIY were to take something that causes no visual disturbances, even in moderately high dose, that one with HPPD would experience something "persisting" that they had never before experienced?

[Greenport]

The use of psychedelics causes permanent changes in the way a person thinks and processes those thoughts, basically out of the experiences themselves. As a result, some things have trippy or similar effects to when the substance was actually ingested.

Some people have mental disorders or other problems that cause them to become overly sensitive to this new style of thought, and can't handle it.

These are the people with HPPD.

SwiM claims her walls move all the time, but doesn't blame that on HPPD. If it bothered her that her walls moved all the time, then she would.

HPPD is the last thing swiY should worry about unless she knows she is susceptible to it.

[pinkandfluffy]

Originally Posted by Greenport

SwiM claims her walls move all the time, but doesn't blame that on HPPD. If it bothered her that her walls moved all the time, then she would.

Very good way of putting it. Swim sometimes gets solid objects "swirling" gently in low light (which he attributes to hallucinogen experiences, not MDMA) but it doesn't bother him in the slightest, and so isn't worried about having a "condition".

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by pinkandfluffy

Very good way of putting it. Swim sometimes gets solid objects "swirling" gently in low light (which he attributes to hallucinogen experiences, not MDMA) but it doesn't bother him in the slightest, and so isn't worried about having a "condition".

Yes but that condition can not be as mild for some people. There is people who are really fucked up by HPPD simptoms, can't drive, can't see straight, lights are just too hard for the eyes etc.. The thing gets worse with depersonalization-derealization.

I have no idea hppd can be caused by MDMA but I would look into what paracelsus said.

Also I would consider age an important factor as I think most hppd cases involve taking drugs at very young age although I have no evidence just some reading on hppd forums.

[Euphoric]

Well there's already been some good advice given. Would just like to add these guidelines should SWIY choose to test the waters.

After obtaining (and using a test kit to verify) pure MDMA from a reliable source, SWIY should take a very tiny scraping of the pill, or a bit of the powder if that's what SWIY gets. Tiny amount as in a visible grain or two. Ingest, making sure SWIY has access to first aid if necessary. This small dose should have no effects whatsoever unless SWIY is allergic. That is the point of this trial. If SWIY was fine after that, then maybe in a week, with a good set and setting, SWIY can venture to try a half dose (or increase the dose in even smaller increments if SWIY is feeling more cautious). Again, if negative effects are not present, give SWIYself a month off, then SWIY can try a full dose.

Sounds like SWIY will be using this for self-analysis, so SWIY should be fine with one dose. A sitter would be important to have, preferably someone experienced who SWIY trusts. SWIY may feel chatty and what to talk about problems SWIY wouldn't normally feel comfortable talking about and may regret later. Keep this in mind when choosing a sitter. Also keep it in mind during the experience. SWIY can have the sitter present, but just write down any thought in a notebook, to be discussed later, if SWIY decides it is a good idea when sober.

MDMA is a powerful drug. SWIM has had great experiences with it as have some of his friends. Make sure SWIY is feeling good and positive about the experience before going into it. It is good that SWIY is being cautious. Many people just take a random pill. So take comfort in SWIY's precautions and intelligence. If SWIY has the time and access then I recommend Ecstasy: The Complete Guide: A Comprehensive Look at the Risks and Benefits of MDMA by Julie Holland M.D. See this link for review and more info: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22600

[Panthers007]

If used for a self-analysis project, be aware that the wonder of this molecule is the removal of fear while also taking down one's defenses. This results in a clear and calm center being achieved from which the all-seeing eye of consciousness can view any and all aspects of one's humanity without negative emotional attachment.

Read: SWIM will be fine.

[jaffacake]

If you are frightened of something you should never, ever take it.

[Panthers007]

That is true of major psychedelic agents such as LSD25 and psilocybin. MDMA is an entactogenic. Even if one is dwelling on a personal issue, it won't release the boogyman in full glory. The worst reaction to MDMA-class drugs is a good, old fashioned anxiety attack.

None the less, entering into such experimentation with a positive outlook is the best way to travel.

[Pachanoid]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

MDMA is an entactogenic. Even if one is dwelling on a personal issue, it won't release the boogyman in full glory. The worst reaction to MDMA-class drugs is a good, old fashioned anxiety attack.

Yeah, when SWIM is rolling there's not a single chance of having a 'bad trip' - it's like SWIM's brain can't think negative. SWIM believes LSD is a much worse offender on the HPPD field.

[ihavequestions]

swim knows that hallucinogens that cause hppd effect the 5ht2a seritonin receptors. from what swim knows MDMA just releases seritonin in synapses etc. but does it directly stimulate the 5ht2a receptors? if not swim would say that its safe to conclude that MDMA would not cause HPPD. MDA might though cause he knows it effects those particular receptors. but how about MDEA?

[raverbaby1988]

SWIM would recommend that SWIY should not try mdma because SWIM seriously tripped out on it and it's really not worth it!