Side effects - Cause of bad reaction?

[purifymymind]

Yesterday SWIM crushed a 30 mg Adderall XR pill and ingested about 15-20 mg orally around 2 PM. SWIM experienced a nice euphoric feeling that subsides by about 5 PM. After eating and lying down to watch TV, SWIM noticed that he had a very elevated heart rate, and not like during the previous euphoric feeling--it was fast enough to make SWIM very nervous and uncomfortable. SWIM drove around for 2 hours to try to calm himself down, but the uncomfortable heart rate did not go away until several hours later (and heart rate was not completely normal until he woke up the next day).

Is this a common reaction? At such a low dosage, SWIM would not expect this to happen (and SWIM has taken Adderall on a few previous occasions, all at around the same dosage). SWIM tried to think of possible causes--he has taken a generic Claritin pill (Loratadine) the night before, and had drank a cup of coffee at around the time of the Adderall ingestion (admittedly stupid--meant to order decaf). However, the caffeine doesn't seem to explain why the elevated heart rate happened so late in the day. Could the combination with Loratadine have an affect?

Any opinions?

[kaczynski]

SWIY experienced what is known as a comedown. The caffeine definitely wouldn't help.

[moda00]

...............

[CorySpaceCowboy]

One should never crush an extended release. They make the comedown less intense and dramatic AND make the expieriance FAR shorter.

[staples]

I always thought that a 30mg XR contained (almost) 60mg of amphetamine salt, half of which is instantly released, and the other half to be released about 4 hours after ingestion. If this is the case, SWIY really took 30-40mg of Adderall.

If the food/drink that SWIY talks about before laying down to watch TV was mainly acidic and thus raised the pH of SWIY's stomach, this could be the reason that the extreme effects were delayed a bit. I don't think it could've been the antihistamine from the night before... and of course caffeine probably only made it worse.

Reputation Comments on this post:

were all a lil dumber having read his posts

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

I always thought that a 30mg XR contained (almost) 60mg of amphetamine salt, half of which is instantly released, and the other half to be released about 4 hours after ingestion. If this is the case, SWIY really took 30-40mg of Adderall.

If the food/drink that SWIY talks about before laying down to watch TV was mainly acidic and thus raised the pH of SWIY's stomach, this could be the reason that the extreme effects were delayed a bit. I don't think it could've been the antihistamine from the night before... and of course caffeine probably only made it worse.

Im pretty sure its total is whats listed. I cant imagine them putting 20 mgs in a capsule and labeling it 10 mgs, it would seem confusing & more trouble then its worth.

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Im pretty sure its total is whats listed. I cant imagine them putting 20 mgs in a capsule and labeling it 10 mgs, it would seem confusing & more trouble then its worth.

I'm pretty sure it was to prevent confusion between the effectiveness of IR and XR. The fact that the same dosages are available for both forms, as opposed to higher dosages in the XR form, supports this (that is, where doctors would usually prescribe 10mg IR twice a day, they started prescribing 10mg XR), but I would certainly be interested in the specific technical detail if anyone knows it.

[Matches]

Originally Posted by CorySpaceCowboy

One should never crush an extended release. They make the comedown less intense and dramatic AND make the expieriance FAR shorter.

Not at all to disagree with SWIY, at all, but SWIM has had instances where the onset of panic is very intense during the nighttime, when SWIM's metabolism is, overall, slower, and has used a pillcutter to score two 0.5mg (1mg overall) of Xanax XR/Alprazolam XR into bits and pieces -- And then had their onset noticeably earlier.

SWIM isn't into uppers at all, so this is probably a bit sorry? Just a quick 2¢.

[OhCasey]

You don't like being wrong? Well then look it up yourself. Is this really the place to correct grammar? Funny how you mention grammar when someone answers your question and you don't like the way they did it or the answer they gave you. I mean come on its gotta be the dumbest question I have seen on here in awhile. Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg's of Adderall? I even answered you nicely at first, like it's not common knowledge the amount on the bottle/pill is the amount in the pills in the bottle. Hope my grammar is up to a message board standards. Here's a source for you. I hope next time you feel the urge to ask a question you spend 5 minutes doing research. http://www.drugs.com/pro/adderall-xr.html

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

You don't like being wrong?

I don't mind

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Well then look it up yourself.

Most sources seemed a little ambiguous, the one you just posted is nice though.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Is this really the place to correct grammar?

I did not correct it.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Funny how you mention grammar when someone answers your question and you don't like the way they did it or the answer they gave you.

I didn't ask a question, and I am thankful for the correction you made. You, on the other hand, seem defensive.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I mean come on its gotta be the dumbest question I have seen on here in awhile. Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg's of Adderall? I even answered you nicely at first, like it's not common knowledge the amount on the bottle/pill is the amount in the pills in the bottle.

It wasn't a question, it was an assumption based on the relative strengths of IR vs. XR.

Edit: Actually, a question, now, would be: what's the point of crushing up the XR, then, if the ingredients themselves are responsible for the delayed release, instead of a second release of the same dosage?

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

I don't mind
Most sources seemed a little ambiguous, the one you just posted is nice though.
I did not correct it.
I didn't ask a question, and I am thankful for the correction you made. You, on the other hand, seem defensive.
It wasn't a question, it was an assumption based on the relative strengths of IR vs. XR.

Edit: Actually, a question, now, would be: what's the point of crushing up the XR, then, if the ingredients themselves are responsible for the delayed release, instead of a second release of the same dosage?

Ya ok it wasnt a question. I might of got defensive but thats after you got lil petty. As far as your new question i think that half the active ingredient beads are covered in time realease chemicals and half arent, i could be wrong.

[beentheredonethatagain]

children please play nice, recess is almost over and we need to get back in class.

[staples]

@OhCasey: I didn't mean to be petty, I wanted to show appreciation for the correction, but not for the apparent tone with which you made the correction. The tone just didn't seem called-for since I didn't even make any absolute assertions... Perhaps a bit passive-aggressive, but (at least to me) there's a certain entertaining incongruity between such a tone and grammar errors that I couldn't resist.

In light of all this, the only things I can think of for the OP, besides possible pH changes (which I can only imagine would be a small factor) is that either crushing XR doesn't really circumvent the time-release , or perhaps can cause the time-release mechanism to also affect what would be IR beads.

If the first is true (that crushing doesn't defeat the xr mechanism) then maybe the beads were divided unevenly with a higher concentration of time-released beads.

If the second is true, it's essentially the same idea: more amphetamine is released after a delay than expected. Someone who understands the chemistry would have to tell us if this one is possible, though.

Is there any food that blocks some part of metabolism to increase bioavailability like how grapefruit juice is supposed to for many benzos?

[purifymymind]

Thanks for the info, guys.

[beentheredonethatagain]

post removed by btdta

Reputation Comments on this post:

Didn't need to be said

[OhCasey]

Youre right its hard to comepare Insufflation and oral use and since im not sticking lil balls up my nose. When swim parachutes 20 mg crushed after 3 days of no adderall usage he notices an increase in affects (compared to no crushing) for about 4 hrs. Swim still doesnt experience a harsh comedown like regular adderall and feels a slight adderall effect for longer this makes swim believe that some of the time release. If you really think that crushhing doesnt defeat the time release then give some reasons or theorys. Swim has encountered more then 6 time releases on various drugs and every capsule and and tablets time release has been defeated by crushing. I do not want to pm you and talk to you about grammar and the intelligence of your posts.

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Youre right its hard to comepare Insufflation and oral use and since im not sticking lil balls up my nose. When swim parachutes 20 mg crushed after 3 days of no adderall usage he notices an increase in affects (compared to no crushing) for about 4 hrs. Swim still doesnt experience a harsh comedown like regular adderall and feels a slight adderall effect for longer this makes swim believe that some of the time release.

It makes him believe that some of the time release... what? Again, you say "compared to no crushing" which compares two different routes of administration which can attain drastically different plasma concentrations. I'm sure if SWIY were to inject adderall he would find it more effective than the same amount ingested.

Also, doesn't microtrol require a certain stage of metabolism in the gastrointestinal tract which would make them inactive when insufflated? If this is the case, the smooth effects are probably just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

If you really think that crushhing doesnt defeat the time release then give some reasons or theorys.

See several posts back, and this is not how inductive reasoning works; I do not think that crushing doesn't defeat the time-release mechanism, I am not convinced that it does.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Swim has encountered more then 6 time releases on various drugs and every capsule and and tablets time release has been defeated by crushing.

How many of them were SODAS? and did you test this hypothesis? Not by simply confirming it, I hope.

Some medications warn against chewing or crushing because some of the drug may start being absorbed through blood vessels in the gums or cheek, not because it would defeat the time-release. Ambien CR, for example, seems to be this way.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I do not want to pm you and talk to you about grammar and the intelligence of your posts.

Excellent, as these are not things I welcomed you to PM me about.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

It makes him believe that some of the time release... what? Again, you say "compared to no crushing" which compares two different routes of administration which can attain drastically different plasma concentrations. I'm sure if SWIY were to inject adderall he would find it more effective than the same amount ingested.

Also, doesn't microtrol require a certain stage of metabolism in the gastrointestinal tract which would make them inactive when insufflated? If this is the case, the smooth effects are probably just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism.

See several posts back, and this is not how inductive reasoning works; I do not think that crushing doesn't defeat the time-release mechanism, I am not convinced that it does.

How many of them were SODAS? and did you test this hypothesis? Not by simply confirming it, I hope.

Some medications warn against chewing or crushing because some of the drug may start being absorbed through blood vessels in the gums or cheek, not because it would defeat the time-release. Ambien CR, for example, seems to be this way.

Excellent, as these are not things I welcomed you to PM me about.

To finish that sentence "some of the time release isnt defeated". Parachuting is the same route of adminastration what are you talking about. Microtrol doesnt require a certain stage of meatbolism in the gastrointestinal tract when the time release is defeated. So this isnt "just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism''. Im not saying that because you dont have an ideas about how to defeat the time release then you should believe what i believe, im just saying you have such strong opinions on the subject and feel im wrong then lets hear some intelligent ideas as to why. Only one was a soda. Did i test my hypothesis? Yep and most f them were opiates and opiates arent vague like amphetamines so im postive i defeated all there time releases. It doesnt really matter why ambien cr warns against crushing since none of the drugs were similar to it (as the warning of it not being crushed cause it can be absorbed through the gums). "Calling or implying that ideas/concepts conveyed by other members are stupid or dumb is hardly impersonal." I like how you act like i called your question dumb before before you made a personal remark. Its funny how this whole thing started because of Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg. Funny how the guy who doesnt know how dosing in an adderall pill works has an understanding of the patentend microtrol delivery system. If youd done 1/10 of the amount of reasearch youve done on adderall since i answered your question before you asked the original one this conversation would have never taken place. Im mad at myself for wasting this much time on the dumbest question ive ever answered. You can post whatever you want in reply im done with this

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

To finish that sentence "some of the time release isnt defeated". Parachuting is the same route of adminastration what are you talking about. Microtrol doesnt require a certain stage of meatbolism in the gastrointestinal tract when the time release is defeated.

But we can't assume it is.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

So this isnt "just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism''. Im not saying that because you dont have an ideas about how to defeat the time release then you should believe what i believe, im just saying you have such strong opinions on the subject and feel im wrong then lets hear some intelligent ideas as to why. Only one was a soda. Did i test my hypothesis? Yep and most f them were opiates and opiates arent vague like amphetamines so im postive i defeated all there time releases.

It sounds like you need a refresher on inductive reasoning.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

It doesnt really matter why ambien cr warns against crushing since none of the drugs were similar to it (as the warning of it not being crushed cause it can be absorbed through the gums).

Ambien CR doesn't explicitly say why, it just says not to, like many other medications. This is called an example, and it is generally used in conveying ideas.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

"Calling or implying that ideas/concepts conveyed by other members are stupid or dumb is hardly impersonal." I like how you act like i called your question dumb before before you made a personal remark.

"imagine that who would of guessed" came before any "personal" remark.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Its funny how this whole thing started because of Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg. Funny how the guy who doesnt know how dosing in an adderall pill works has an understanding of the patentend microtrol delivery system.

I have not claimed to know how it works, on the other hand to say for sure that it is defeated by crushing is to claim you know something about how it works.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

If youd done 1/10 of the amount of reasearch youve done on adderall since i answered your question before you asked the original one this conversation would have never taken place.

I've done little-to-no research on Adderall lately.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Im mad at myself for wasting this much time on the dumbest question ive ever answered. You can post whatever you want in reply im done with this

I did not have a question. Goodbye!

[jazzmetalguitar]

To my understanding SODAS and Microtrol work quite differently however it is impossible to tell due to the lack of data on Microtrol. What most don't realize is that the delayed absorption of amphetamine is mostly to the various salt forms.

As far as capsule dissolution goes, no SWIM doesn't believe the plastic ones will dissolve in water but some are gelatin based and they will. Regardless, capsules are not a means of slowing the pharmacokinetics, but a storage device for a powder or beads. So, it shouldn't be a significant length of time for even a plastic capsule to dissolve.

SWIM isn't completely sure but thinks SWIY's doctor is actually wrong. Most of the amphetamine which is taken is absorbed in the small intestine due to the lower pH level there. Since amphetamines pKa value is rather high, approximately 9, it will be hydrophilic is the stomach's acidic environment and therefore will not absorb very well. In the more basic small intestine, the amphetamine is lipophilic and pass through the membranes into the bloodstream. (Note: SWIM may have the hydro and lipo mixed up but either way that is how the absorption works. This is why baking soda will help in absorption and increased bioavailability.)

SWIM does believe sublingual amphetamine ingestion is possible as well though and the route would be equivalent in absorption speed to insufflation.

[staples]

Originally Posted by jazzmetalguitar

To my understanding SODAS and Microtrol work quite differently however it is impossible to tell due to the lack of data on Microtrol. What most don't realize is that the delayed absorption of amphetamine is mostly to the various salt forms.

Thank you, this is what I was trying to say several posts back

Originally Posted by jazzmetalguitar

As far as capsule dissolution goes, no SWIM doesn't believe the plastic ones will dissolve in water but some are gelatin based and they will.

Ah, I think I misunderstood something then.

Originally Posted by jazzmetalguitar

SWIM isn't completely sure but thinks SWIY's doctor is actually wrong. Most of the amphetamine which is taken is absorbed in the small intestine due to the lower pH level there.

Yeah, she didn't say anything that contradicts this. She may have just been talking about the enzyme (starts with a t... trypsin?) which breaks down vyvanse isn't found in high concentrations until later in the gastrointestinal tract so where other medications I've tried kicked in earlier, vyvanse would take noticeably longer; of course she put it in simpler terms for me as her patient.

[jazzmetalguitar]

First of all, sorry for repeating SWIYs statements. SWIM wasn't really interested much in the early parts of the thread but good discussion has arisen.

Originally Posted by staples

Yeah, she didn't say anything that contradicts this. She may have just been talking about the enzyme (starts with a t... trypsin?) which breaks down vyvanse isn't found in high concentrations until later in the gastrointestinal tract so where other medications I've tried kicked in earlier, vyvanse would take noticeably longer; of course she put it in simpler terms for me as her patient.

Which enzyme are we talking about? The one to separate the lysine or the one to break down the actual amphetamine, because if SWIM correctly recalls amphetamine is broken down by CYP2D6 in the liver.

[staples]

No it's fine, I think SWIY said it more succinctly than I managed to.

I was talking about the one to separate the lysine as a possible explanation for what my doctor was trying to say. The activated d-amph is then indeed metabolized in the liver.

The point was that some adderall (very little, but perhaps enough to explain the reported quicker effects), when not contained in a capsule, could reach the bloodstream earlier than adderall contained in a capsule while traveling through the digestive system. Of course, it's merely a guess; shire's application to the FDA probably would say something about this under abuse liability.

[jazzmetalguitar]

Originally Posted by staples

The point was that some adderall (very little, but perhaps enough to explain the reported quicker effects), when not contained in a capsule, could reach the bloodstream earlier than adderall contained in a capsule while traveling through the digestive system. Of course, it's merely a guess; shire's application to the FDA probably would say something about this under abuse liability.

SWIM will look into the application if he can find it. Sublingual ingestion only makes sense to him with IR's however, the beads in XR would have to be dissolved first in his opinion. However, that could easily take less than stomach acid and is worth experimenting with.

[OhCasey]

The delayed absorption of amphetamine is mostly to the various salt forms.

Thank you, this is what I was trying to say several posts back

You dont mean mostly do you? Cause im pretty sure the delayed absorption is do to Microtrol. Adderall IR contains the same amount of various amphetamine salts. One thing ive noticed about crushing XR is that the effects wear off alot faster. If swim takes an adderall xr after 2 pm he cant sleep but if he crushes it he can take it at 4 and be tired by 10. Only time will tell if crushing it actually defeats microtrol but if i had to bet on it id bet it does.