Side effects - Cause of bad reaction?

[purifymymind]

Yesterday SWIM crushed a 30 mg Adderall XR pill and ingested about 15-20 mg orally around 2 PM. SWIM experienced a nice euphoric feeling that subsides by about 5 PM. After eating and lying down to watch TV, SWIM noticed that he had a very elevated heart rate, and not like during the previous euphoric feeling--it was fast enough to make SWIM very nervous and uncomfortable. SWIM drove around for 2 hours to try to calm himself down, but the uncomfortable heart rate did not go away until several hours later (and heart rate was not completely normal until he woke up the next day).

Is this a common reaction? At such a low dosage, SWIM would not expect this to happen (and SWIM has taken Adderall on a few previous occasions, all at around the same dosage). SWIM tried to think of possible causes--he has taken a generic Claritin pill (Loratadine) the night before, and had drank a cup of coffee at around the time of the Adderall ingestion (admittedly stupid--meant to order decaf). However, the caffeine doesn't seem to explain why the elevated heart rate happened so late in the day. Could the combination with Loratadine have an affect?

Any opinions?

[kaczynski]

SWIY experienced what is known as a comedown. The caffeine definitely wouldn't help.

[moda00]

...............

[CorySpaceCowboy]

One should never crush an extended release. They make the comedown less intense and dramatic AND make the expieriance FAR shorter.

[staples]

I always thought that a 30mg XR contained (almost) 60mg of amphetamine salt, half of which is instantly released, and the other half to be released about 4 hours after ingestion. If this is the case, SWIY really took 30-40mg of Adderall.

If the food/drink that SWIY talks about before laying down to watch TV was mainly acidic and thus raised the pH of SWIY's stomach, this could be the reason that the extreme effects were delayed a bit. I don't think it could've been the antihistamine from the night before... and of course caffeine probably only made it worse.

Reputation Comments on this post:

were all a lil dumber having read his posts

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

I always thought that a 30mg XR contained (almost) 60mg of amphetamine salt, half of which is instantly released, and the other half to be released about 4 hours after ingestion. If this is the case, SWIY really took 30-40mg of Adderall.

If the food/drink that SWIY talks about before laying down to watch TV was mainly acidic and thus raised the pH of SWIY's stomach, this could be the reason that the extreme effects were delayed a bit. I don't think it could've been the antihistamine from the night before... and of course caffeine probably only made it worse.

Im pretty sure its total is whats listed. I cant imagine them putting 20 mgs in a capsule and labeling it 10 mgs, it would seem confusing & more trouble then its worth.

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Im pretty sure its total is whats listed. I cant imagine them putting 20 mgs in a capsule and labeling it 10 mgs, it would seem confusing & more trouble then its worth.

I'm pretty sure it was to prevent confusion between the effectiveness of IR and XR. The fact that the same dosages are available for both forms, as opposed to higher dosages in the XR form, supports this (that is, where doctors would usually prescribe 10mg IR twice a day, they started prescribing 10mg XR), but I would certainly be interested in the specific technical detail if anyone knows it.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

I'm pretty sure it was to prevent confusion between the effectiveness of IR and XR. The fact that the same dosages are available for both forms, as opposed to higher dosages in the XR form, supports this (that is, where doctors would usually prescribe 10mg IR twice a day, they started prescribing 10mg XR), but I would certainly be interested in the specific technical detail if anyone knows it.

I cant imagine a pharmacuetical company ever wanting or being allowed to market a product where the active ingriedent inside is doubled what is actually marked. That said a 10 mg capsule of Adderall XR contains 10 mgs of mixed amphetimines, imagine that who would of guessed.

Reputation Comments on this post:

you both have good points, but this comment's sarcasm was unnecessary

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I cant imagine a pharmacuetical company ever wanting or being allowed to market a product where the active ingriedent inside is doubled what is actually marked. That said a 10 mg capsule of Adderall XR contains 10 mgs of mixed amphetimines, imagine that who would of guessed.

Well, supposing you're right, aside from the lack of technical detail and the cocky attitude coupled with bad grammar, thanks for the correction.

[OhCasey]

You don't like being wrong? Well then look it up yourself. Is this really the place to correct grammar? Funny how you mention grammar when someone answers your question and you don't like the way they did it or the answer they gave you. I mean come on its gotta be the dumbest question I have seen on here in awhile. Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg's of Adderall? I even answered you nicely at first, like it's not common knowledge the amount on the bottle/pill is the amount in the pills in the bottle. Hope my grammar is up to a message board standards. Here's a source for you. I hope next time you feel the urge to ask a question you spend 5 minutes doing research. http://www.drugs.com/pro/adderall-xr.html

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

You don't like being wrong?

I don't mind

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Well then look it up yourself.

Most sources seemed a little ambiguous, the one you just posted is nice though.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Is this really the place to correct grammar?

I did not correct it.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Funny how you mention grammar when someone answers your question and you don't like the way they did it or the answer they gave you.

I didn't ask a question, and I am thankful for the correction you made. You, on the other hand, seem defensive.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I mean come on its gotta be the dumbest question I have seen on here in awhile. Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg's of Adderall? I even answered you nicely at first, like it's not common knowledge the amount on the bottle/pill is the amount in the pills in the bottle.

It wasn't a question, it was an assumption based on the relative strengths of IR vs. XR.

Edit: Actually, a question, now, would be: what's the point of crushing up the XR, then, if the ingredients themselves are responsible for the delayed release, instead of a second release of the same dosage?

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

I don't mind
Most sources seemed a little ambiguous, the one you just posted is nice though.
I did not correct it.
I didn't ask a question, and I am thankful for the correction you made. You, on the other hand, seem defensive.
It wasn't a question, it was an assumption based on the relative strengths of IR vs. XR.

Edit: Actually, a question, now, would be: what's the point of crushing up the XR, then, if the ingredients themselves are responsible for the delayed release, instead of a second release of the same dosage?

Ya ok it wasnt a question. I might of got defensive but thats after you got lil petty. As far as your new question i think that half the active ingredient beads are covered in time realease chemicals and half arent, i could be wrong.

[beentheredonethatagain]

children please play nice, recess is almost over and we need to get back in class.

[staples]

@OhCasey: I didn't mean to be petty, I wanted to show appreciation for the correction, but not for the apparent tone with which you made the correction. The tone just didn't seem called-for since I didn't even make any absolute assertions... Perhaps a bit passive-aggressive, but (at least to me) there's a certain entertaining incongruity between such a tone and grammar errors that I couldn't resist.

In light of all this, the only things I can think of for the OP, besides possible pH changes (which I can only imagine would be a small factor) is that either crushing XR doesn't really circumvent the time-release , or perhaps can cause the time-release mechanism to also affect what would be IR beads.

If the first is true (that crushing doesn't defeat the xr mechanism) then maybe the beads were divided unevenly with a higher concentration of time-released beads.

If the second is true, it's essentially the same idea: more amphetamine is released after a delay than expected. Someone who understands the chemistry would have to tell us if this one is possible, though.

Is there any food that blocks some part of metabolism to increase bioavailability like how grapefruit juice is supposed to for many benzos?

[OhCasey]

It wasn't a big deal to me. I didnt love the way it was turned away from facts to something personal and about something as trivial as grammar. I'd expect to have my grammar critiqued on a term paper not on a Drug Forum reply explaining the amount actual drug in an amphetamine pill.
That said I do believe that crushing the pills defeats the time release, based on when swim does it and swim insufflates the adderall xr he feels it more then doing it orally and faster. He does only feel a slight increase in effects though so this may in fact not defeat or only partially defeat the time release. It may also be because swim only uses small doses. Now swim knows for sure that when he crushes and insufflates Avinza Capsules (Extended Release Morphine Sulfate) he is getting passed the time release and it is in capsule form with the same size beads as Adderall XR. I think that you are thinking that the Extended release mechanism in Adderall XR is from the fact that levoamphetamine has a fast onset and dextro takes a lil longer to kick in, correct me if im wrong. This cant be Adderall XR's time release system though since regular adderall contains the same amount of Dextro and Levoamphetamine which is roughly 3/4 Dextro mixed salts & 1/4 levo. The name of Shire's time release is actually microtrol though im not sure how it works my guess is just a coating over the balls that slowly dissolves at set times or speeds. I could be wrong about the action of the time release since i cant find any solid info. Just my guess.

[purifymymind]

Thanks for the info, guys.

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

It wasn't a big deal to me. I didnt love the way it was turned away from facts to something personal and about something as trivial as grammar. I'd expect to have my grammar critiqued on a term paper not on a Drug Forum reply explaining the amount actual drug in an amphetamine pill.

Calling or implying that ideas/concepts conveyed by other members are stupid or dumb is hardly impersonal. Furthermore, I devoted merely a sentence fragment to your grammar; it wasn't even the main point of that sentence, let alone meant to divert discussion. You've perpetuated it to such a level, despite my attempt to explain that it wasn't your grammar, specifically. If you need more resolution to this, feel free to PM me.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

That said I do believe that crushing the pills defeats the time release, based on when swim does it and swim insufflates the adderall xr he feels it more then doing it orally and faster. He does only feel a slight increase in effects though so this may in fact not defeat or only partially defeat the time release.

That's not a valid comparison. To study the effects of crushed vs. non-crushed, all other variables (including route of administration) should be constant.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

It may also be because swim only uses small doses. Now swim knows for sure that when he crushes and insufflates Avinza Capsules (Extended Release Morphine Sulfate) he is getting passed the time release and it is in capsule form with the same size beads as Adderall XR.

Avinza uses SODAS, a different technology, regardless of the similar size.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I think that you are thinking that the Extended release mechanism in Adderall XR is from the fact that levoamphetamine has a fast onset and dextro takes a lil longer to kick in, correct me if im wrong.

At first I thought it was the other way around, but the only information I can find just says that the l-isomer has a higher Tmax and lower Cmax, but nothing to say it's absorbed slower into the bloodstream than the d-isomer.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I could be wrong about the action of the time release since i cant find any solid info. Just my guess.

I don't suppose we'll see much more information on it until Shire's patent on Adderall XR expires next year.

[beentheredonethatagain]

post removed by btdta

Reputation Comments on this post:

Didn't need to be said

[OhCasey]

Youre right its hard to comepare Insufflation and oral use and since im not sticking lil balls up my nose. When swim parachutes 20 mg crushed after 3 days of no adderall usage he notices an increase in affects (compared to no crushing) for about 4 hrs. Swim still doesnt experience a harsh comedown like regular adderall and feels a slight adderall effect for longer this makes swim believe that some of the time release. If you really think that crushhing doesnt defeat the time release then give some reasons or theorys. Swim has encountered more then 6 time releases on various drugs and every capsule and and tablets time release has been defeated by crushing. I do not want to pm you and talk to you about grammar and the intelligence of your posts.

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Youre right its hard to comepare Insufflation and oral use and since im not sticking lil balls up my nose. When swim parachutes 20 mg crushed after 3 days of no adderall usage he notices an increase in affects (compared to no crushing) for about 4 hrs. Swim still doesnt experience a harsh comedown like regular adderall and feels a slight adderall effect for longer this makes swim believe that some of the time release.

It makes him believe that some of the time release... what? Again, you say "compared to no crushing" which compares two different routes of administration which can attain drastically different plasma concentrations. I'm sure if SWIY were to inject adderall he would find it more effective than the same amount ingested.

Also, doesn't microtrol require a certain stage of metabolism in the gastrointestinal tract which would make them inactive when insufflated? If this is the case, the smooth effects are probably just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

If you really think that crushhing doesnt defeat the time release then give some reasons or theorys.

See several posts back, and this is not how inductive reasoning works; I do not think that crushing doesn't defeat the time-release mechanism, I am not convinced that it does.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Swim has encountered more then 6 time releases on various drugs and every capsule and and tablets time release has been defeated by crushing.

How many of them were SODAS? and did you test this hypothesis? Not by simply confirming it, I hope.

Some medications warn against chewing or crushing because some of the drug may start being absorbed through blood vessels in the gums or cheek, not because it would defeat the time-release. Ambien CR, for example, seems to be this way.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

I do not want to pm you and talk to you about grammar and the intelligence of your posts.

Excellent, as these are not things I welcomed you to PM me about.

[Matches]

Originally Posted by CorySpaceCowboy

One should never crush an extended release. They make the comedown less intense and dramatic AND make the expieriance FAR shorter.

Not at all to disagree with SWIY, at all, but SWIM has had instances where the onset of panic is very intense during the nighttime, when SWIM's metabolism is, overall, slower, and has used a pillcutter to score two 0.5mg (1mg overall) of Xanax XR/Alprazolam XR into bits and pieces -- And then had their onset noticeably earlier.

SWIM isn't into uppers at all, so this is probably a bit sorry? Just a quick 2¢.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by staples

It makes him believe that some of the time release... what? Again, you say "compared to no crushing" which compares two different routes of administration which can attain drastically different plasma concentrations. I'm sure if SWIY were to inject adderall he would find it more effective than the same amount ingested.

Also, doesn't microtrol require a certain stage of metabolism in the gastrointestinal tract which would make them inactive when insufflated? If this is the case, the smooth effects are probably just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism.

See several posts back, and this is not how inductive reasoning works; I do not think that crushing doesn't defeat the time-release mechanism, I am not convinced that it does.

How many of them were SODAS? and did you test this hypothesis? Not by simply confirming it, I hope.

Some medications warn against chewing or crushing because some of the drug may start being absorbed through blood vessels in the gums or cheek, not because it would defeat the time-release. Ambien CR, for example, seems to be this way.

Excellent, as these are not things I welcomed you to PM me about.

To finish that sentence "some of the time release isnt defeated". Parachuting is the same route of adminastration what are you talking about. Microtrol doesnt require a certain stage of meatbolism in the gastrointestinal tract when the time release is defeated. So this isnt "just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism''. Im not saying that because you dont have an ideas about how to defeat the time release then you should believe what i believe, im just saying you have such strong opinions on the subject and feel im wrong then lets hear some intelligent ideas as to why. Only one was a soda. Did i test my hypothesis? Yep and most f them were opiates and opiates arent vague like amphetamines so im postive i defeated all there time releases. It doesnt really matter why ambien cr warns against crushing since none of the drugs were similar to it (as the warning of it not being crushed cause it can be absorbed through the gums). "Calling or implying that ideas/concepts conveyed by other members are stupid or dumb is hardly impersonal." I like how you act like i called your question dumb before before you made a personal remark. Its funny how this whole thing started because of Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg. Funny how the guy who doesnt know how dosing in an adderall pill works has an understanding of the patentend microtrol delivery system. If youd done 1/10 of the amount of reasearch youve done on adderall since i answered your question before you asked the original one this conversation would have never taken place. Im mad at myself for wasting this much time on the dumbest question ive ever answered. You can post whatever you want in reply im done with this

[staples]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

To finish that sentence "some of the time release isnt defeated". Parachuting is the same route of adminastration what are you talking about. Microtrol doesnt require a certain stage of meatbolism in the gastrointestinal tract when the time release is defeated.

But we can't assume it is.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

So this isnt "just the shifted metabolization speed of the instant-release d- and l-isomers, and not indicative of the nature of the time-release mechanism''. Im not saying that because you dont have an ideas about how to defeat the time release then you should believe what i believe, im just saying you have such strong opinions on the subject and feel im wrong then lets hear some intelligent ideas as to why. Only one was a soda. Did i test my hypothesis? Yep and most f them were opiates and opiates arent vague like amphetamines so im postive i defeated all there time releases.

It sounds like you need a refresher on inductive reasoning.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

It doesnt really matter why ambien cr warns against crushing since none of the drugs were similar to it (as the warning of it not being crushed cause it can be absorbed through the gums).

Ambien CR doesn't explicitly say why, it just says not to, like many other medications. This is called an example, and it is generally used in conveying ideas.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

"Calling or implying that ideas/concepts conveyed by other members are stupid or dumb is hardly impersonal." I like how you act like i called your question dumb before before you made a personal remark.

"imagine that who would of guessed" came before any "personal" remark.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Its funny how this whole thing started because of Does a 30 mg pill contain 60 mg. Funny how the guy who doesnt know how dosing in an adderall pill works has an understanding of the patentend microtrol delivery system.

I have not claimed to know how it works, on the other hand to say for sure that it is defeated by crushing is to claim you know something about how it works.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

If youd done 1/10 of the amount of reasearch youve done on adderall since i answered your question before you asked the original one this conversation would have never taken place.

I've done little-to-no research on Adderall lately.

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Im mad at myself for wasting this much time on the dumbest question ive ever answered. You can post whatever you want in reply im done with this

I did not have a question. Goodbye!

[Lost in the world]

I dunno if its already been answered, but XR's contain the same amount of adderall as IR's. The difference is that XR's are made into tiny beads that are coated with a special ammino acid blend that delays digestion, hence extending release of the adderall. By crushing the beads into powder and re-caping it you can get the same effect as IRs. Parachuting is different than re-capping cuse it allows faster digestion too.

[jazzmetalguitar]

Originally Posted by Lost in the world

Parachuting is different than re-capping cuse it allows faster digestion too.

This has no logical merit in SWIM's opinion. The difference is dissolution times for rolling paper and capsules is not enough to cause a difference in absorption. Capsules can even dissolve in water in little to no time....