Poll: Do psychedelics help to make users better people?

[Euphoric]

Do you think psychedelics help to make users better people? Just wondering, because I have known people to remark that psychedelics make them more understanding/empathetic/selfless. I have heard people say: "if only <insert powerful leader's name here> would take shrooms, they wouldn't do all those terrible things." But SWIM knows people who have used psychedelics who are assholes. So, my vote is no. What do others think?

[Lethargy]

We feel that psychedelics have a chance to promote greater scope, clarity and depth of perception. This does not in any way imply that a given individual will think about the world around hir on or after a psychedelic experience. Introspective and/or observant people have a greater chance of coming back from such a journey with a significant chunk of introspection and/or observation but this amount will exist in a manner proportional to the amount garnered from ordinary (non-psychedelic) life experiences.

We've spoken to very intelligent people who had never needed to think "outside the box" and said people got a lot from psychedelics. We've spoken to very dull, superficial people and said people "tripped balls" on psychedelics and saw some "freaky shit" but did not communicate any special insights (We don't count "MAN, the fridge was all starin at me an stuff, it could SEE me!" unless said individual thinks about how a fridge could in some form actually see them).

Much like showing someone a bunch of paints and canvas will not make them an artist without artistic inclination, showing someone the psychedelic world will not give them anything life-changing unless they have the inclination to change.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good answer

[kaczynski]

It totally depends. Better person? Probably not the majority of the time. But I guess it depends on what you mean by "better." If you mean an improved person, as in, someone with a different perspective, then I'm sure that's the case alot. SWIM has experienced this himself. SWIM has also had many trips where he wasn't changed at all, and just sort of explored the effects of the drug.

[crackcityrocker]

swim has known too many people that do acid that are shady and mean to say that psychedelics make a person better (or happier, or more insightful). some users will only take a drug to get fucked up, nothing will change that.

[Nature Boy]

What is meant by a better person anyway? I assume you mean becoming more humane and empathetic towards your fellow man but bettering oneself can also be considered in a material sense i.e. becoming more successful, earning more money etc.

Either way, I'm going to have to say no.

[Euphoric]

Yeah, human and empathetic sounds about right for better person.

[RaverHippie]

At the least it will dispel any stereotypes and give a breadth of understanding to the person. For that a yes vote.

[SomebodyAfar]

But I have a question that I don't know where to put, and, as most people say LSD and Shrooms(I think there great for kicks), have changed their life most, I feel it relevant to put here.

Ok, so what is everyones view on the idea that Phycadelics only allow people to think that their mind has been opened, to discover and enjoy new, and old things in life. People who, as it has been but before, think their opening their mind for $XXXX a tab of acid. If taken, does it not feel deluding yourself into believing something that, without them, you couldnt possiblly feel. Ok, so has this idea occrured to anyone; and whoever would like to point me to the right forum......

[[éS]Infinite]

SWIM feels that it is not that they DO make one a better individual (in the sense that they integrate more "positive" features into their lives) but they have the potential to do so, while they also have the potential to make one colder. Psychedelics generally place an individual through a pattern of transitions, and such transitions often include viewing the "negative" aspects of life. If a "bad trip" does take place, one may feel he or she is isolated, and may stop seeing a "point" in living if they realize something like "life is inherently pointless". While they are not uncommon, psychedelics do also generate the thought processes which promote creative thinking. As such, one may be able to simply think of an answer to resolve any "negative" thoughts.
SWIM feels that psychedelics make one a better or worse individual, just as living life does. However they do aid in revealing to one that the "positives" and "negatives" are the same, in that one would not be without the other.

[EntheogenicTruth]

swim has discovered that it usually gives the user more introspective thought and thus provides them with not only the means but the motivation to better themselves with various things, lifestyle change, change in perception of different things etc. however psychedelic introspection is only useful to someone that is prepared to use it.
psychedelics are tools, fun tools.
Swim would say that using psychedelics to better oneself is like breaking down a wall to oneself. the drug is one specific tool to do so. the same introspection can still be reached through other means.

[Strangeness]

The question itself is a bit vague. Can responsible use of psychedelics make someone a 'better' (meaning 'understanding/empathetic/selfless') person? Of course. Does such use always do so? Certainly not. On that basis alone, my vote is no.

That being said, many people SWIM knows are probably 'better' people now compared to before they ventured into psychedelics. What's interesting is that most of them venture there almost purely for the recreational aspect.

Then again, SWIM feels that irresponsible use goes the opposite way... specifically into becoming 'permafried'... i.e. most definitely not a better human being.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for sharing SWIy's view/experience.

[stoneinfocus]

to those who said "no" and then explained, that it could be of use should rather have put theier cross to "other".

Even if the person took a psychedelic, he´s a "better" humen in the sense, that h tried something new, even those, just trying ot get something recreational out of it, could profit from it, when they´d look back few years later and think about the experience, cause it always enhances the status quo and provides alternative views..

this being said, it´s yes, for sure, but swim voted for "other" as this is a bit too polarasing question and a simple yes can always be exstinguished by a simple "no" of oponents, so there´s no basis for providing a discussion that not most likely ends in the same polarisation of yes and no.

[TMM]

Users have the ability to instill in themselves the qualities or personality which they value. Some may find it easier to do this while under the influence of certain drugs. I certainly wouldn't refer to these drugs in anything but a passive sense.

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by TMM

Users have the ability to instill in themselves the qualities or personality which they value. Some may find it easier to do this while under the influence of certain drugs. I certainly wouldn't refer to these drugs in anything but a passive sense.

I beg your pardon?! Altering the state of mind and the way it works is probably the most active way anything in the universe can influence the free will and give access to a self-inspired change of mind.

thre´s no wonder drug one can take in and is a whole new human being.

but these psychedelics as means are the clostest as one can get and are a wonder, at least to swim, who can and makes use of the benefits.

[podge]

Psychedelics CAN help people improve the quality of their lives... Nothing is guaranteed. Their are things which can be done to improve the chances of having a beneficial experience but thats as good as it gets.

[stoneinfocus]

Obtaining another point of view is beneficial in general, and this has nothing to do on how "pleasant" the trip was and how "groovy" the setting was, in addition to the unique mindalteration of a trip, which can´t be had without it, it´s a completely new experience, which one uniquely experiences by taking a trip...

So, if it´s experience, what makes a "better" human, then it can well be said, that psychedelic do make a bettter human.
So my point would be "yes", but as stated before, it´s "other".

[TMM]

Originally Posted by stoneinfocus

I beg your pardon?! Altering the state of mind and the way it works is probably the most active way anything in the universe can influence the free will and give access to a self-inspired change of mind.

Perhaps I should clarify. The active decision leading to this altered state was taken by the person. The decisions and conclusions of the experience all stem from that person's psyche. The psychedelic is just a tool some use to point themselves in a different direction - of course there is no 'right' direction. As such, I think it makes more sense to say 'the psychedelic is being used to do something' than 'the psychedelic is doing something'. Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'

[stoneinfocus]

I´d say it does, as most conscious decisiontaking is untangled by the psychedelic, i.e. you can´t control yourself, not having hallucinations or synaethesisa, which is to me the point of saying, it´s unique and it does stem not only from the personality and the decision of taking something upfront.

It stems from the alteration of the mind, the way of processing the past and the present on the basis of the individual´s experiences, the `usual way´ .

The psychedelic mean will lead these impressions to be adapted to brainregions that usually don´t process them and thus unlock them, to from any abstract and streched processing of these impressions possible in this person and essentially making them new ones out of the already existing impression.

It´s not likedrinking and loosing some barriers by getting stupid or taking anti-depressants or depressants to select/deselect favourable/ unfavourable aspects of the personality and ways of processing things...
-it confronts the user with all sides of his personality <->and all sides of the personality with nearly all different kinds of processing and this is what is meant to be dangerous by the opponents, as it´s not the commercial "Giving you and know what you get <-> and get what you expect-scenario", hell, one has to find words, pictures and sounds to express a psychedelic experience even for months and years after and these don´t even come close, while usual non-psych medication´s actions on the mind can be described by 250 words on one paper-sheet.

The change of mentality is actually the hallucination and it´s the mentality, being directed to other locations of the brain.
To me, this is a big deal, just because it´s abstract, it doesn´t mean, that it´s not the unique mentality of yours anymore, it really is being spread out onto new regions of exploration, by action of the psychedelic, thus, it stems from both(maybe some might not like to see their mentality and personality being "degraded" to a hallucination , or an abstract, by a certrain loco of their brain, but by doing so, one gets rid of the most beneficial side of an psychedelic experience it can do to the conscious mind, during and for a long time after the action has ceased, th eunconciousness will have profited for sure out of this and itßs now the way th econciousness handles these added values to the unconcious, coming to surface)

[Jatelka]

Whether it makes them "better" or not, there do seem to be differences between psychedelic users and non.

See here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=1462&catid=68

[TMM]

Originally Posted by stoneinfocus

It´s not likedrinking and loosing some barriers by getting stupid or taking anti-depressants or depressants to select/deselect favourable/ unfavourable aspects of the personality and ways of processing things...
-it confronts the user with all sides of his personality

I don't agree with this. That's not what it does, that's what some people interpret it as doing. Obviously, it's very hard to talk about things such as change in personality, since such complex psychological notions are constantly evolving and always different anyway. The difference between psychedelics and most other psychoactives, perhaps, is that the changes they elicit in the brain are so completely abnormal that, at high enough doses, the user may be forced to wade through their psyche in order to make sense of the signals being given to them. This is more likely to lead to long-term change, but is not a direct cause.

I think we've reached an impasse, in that we're not really talking about the same thing anymore. Truce?

[psyche]

I voted for yes, because, as said above it can have that impact. The question 'do psychedelics make users better people' is bold in the way it implies that the psychedelics are something that actively makes something to human being, it doesn't encourage to answer yes.

Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'

The psychedelic mean will lead these impressions to be adapted to brainregions that usually don´t process them and thus unlock them, to from any abstract and streched processing of these impressions possible in this person and essentially making them new ones out of the already existing impression.

^If this is an argument about how much the psychedelics affect the personality on a brain-level, then you need to present much, much more details.

TMM propably meant that what actually alters your personality is encoded rather in the experience one has than the molecule itself. So while it needs both the experience and a drug(psychedelic) to happen, I'd say the change of personality is rather in the experience if I needed to choose.

[stoneinfocus]

It´s just that TMM is denying any effect of psychedelics in the sense, that means "if you don´t work it out yourself, it´s not doing anything and your personality is not changed.

This is not true. Has TMM taken psychedelics? And more often than once, so he could think about the last trip and tries to get more out of anotherone, the next time he finished one?-This is important, most people must get used to and feel familiar to a drug´s effect, so they can actually realize it better, without being surprised by it and what it might be good for; -so the next time, they will actually separate from tripping and working things out afterwards, or, in another case, use coke´s effects for creativity or relaxation, when they´re getting used to the different aspects of the drug itself.

Psychedelics use the mind, they take it apart and to other functional modules of the brain, without one having the chance of controlling where this will be(from the temporal lobe to maybe the hearing-locus of the brain) and without knowing the effects, that these info causes in these brain-regions or without knowing, what it causes to these brain-regions.

If -say- information from the temporal lobe, where your aggression, empathy and personal means of dealing with it is located, went into another part of the brain, than the temporal lobe might make you feel a time-shift and the emotions and the neuron´s electrical pattern of the temporalis(your matrix for processing/dealing with things), -now being led to the acoustic locus, by the action of the drug- will cause an effect, prob. some sort of hallucination, ...or same scenario for -say- the optical region: you might see pictures, that are being elicited from the emotion, aggression and rationality which is comprimated in these neurons-derived electrical pattern-matrix of the temporalis, noe being sent to this region and it will process them by the best way and to the outmost possibilities the optical region has to offer(like leading a stream of water from the river to a field watering system, the H20 and waves/tides will have then different effects as in the river, where it´s just flowing in the usual way downstreams and will effect the river itself), probably causing a deeper blue a more intense orange-yellow or pink to the incoming sensory signals and autonomous hallucinations, visions, caused by the foreing brain-signals, like seeing things that are not derived from electrical signals of the optical nerve, caleidoscopes, when eyes are closed and, in return, this temporalis matrix will change the optical vision/view by -say- seeing a glass-plate effect in one´s vision, shape-shiftings or symmetrical patterns, which will reflect the way of dealing of the temporalis´s informationpart, intermixed with the "mechanics" of the optical brain region, calculating the optical nerve signaling.
This is an abstract. This can be reviewed after the trip conciously, as an emotion and a pattern of logic procession, expressed by these hallucination, as a picture, which reveals your mind and your mind reveals to you and with your mind, you see this revelation, which holds more information, than actually the colours and lines on their own, or more, than just seeing a painted house, you "see" the ambition of an artist, you see the mechanics of the work and why he used this technique to express it, as you see it, you see, it´s in you, too, the moment, you look at it and know, what the artist tried to express, yet being unable to derive its logical foundation, though, it´s there, -like thousands of people will make a wave in the stadion or people scream at a 1000th of a second simultaniously when dancing, for no obvious reason, yet being perfectly in unison and sharing the same of feelings, mechanisms and effects and reactions to this phenomenone and are afterwards probably happier and more relaxed and will try seeking these benefis by application of the experience to their own and others lifes.

Interestingly and this is very advantageously, the picture of a temporalis-derived, optical brain-region-induced hallucination (take it farther to a whole body feeling and thoughts during these moments), has no concious limitiations the way your temporalis would automatically incorporate into it, like experienced fear, regrets, loathing of something, it´s a psycholgical hybride of great potency, if one thinks about it afterwards, or even by just experiencing it and letting the experience root and spread.

So getting back to TM opinion, it won´t cause an peronality-change in the sense of a "whole new person" immediate result, but it does do so, as all experiences do, which are more-or less-meaningful -and concerning the aspects and the nature of a psychedelic trip, directly dealing with a person´s mentality, which is a great part of his personality (you can´t divide 1+1=2 by saying I chose 1+1 and it´s not an addition result in the end) it will more-or-less change the person´s mentality and personality in the end.

[drab4]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

What is meant by a better person anyway? I assume you mean becoming more humane and empathetic towards your fellow man but bettering oneself can also be considered in a material sense i.e. becoming more successful, earning more money etc.

Either way, I'm going to have to say no.

This post covers all that I was going to say

As a vaguely related aside though, there was a period over much of the 90s in the UK where mdma use was extremely common. This period coincided with lower levels of violence and "hooliganism" than are normal in the UK. Those times are over now though. My point here is that use of some drugs, when commonplace, can influence society. At least for a time

Perhaps other UK members will disagree with me on this, but that was certainly my perception at the time anyway

[TMM]

Originally Posted by stoneinfocus

It´s just that TMM is denying any effect of psychedelics in the sense, that means "if you don´t work it out yourself, it´s not doing anything and your personality is not changed.

This is not true. Has TMM taken psychedelics? And more often than once, so he could think about the last trip and tries to get more out of anotherone, the next time he finished one?This is important, most people must get used to and feel familiar to a drug´s effect, so they actually realize, what this effect actually is, without being surprised by it and what it might be good for, so the next time, they will actually separate from tripping and working things out afterwards, or use in another case, coke´s effects for creativity or relaxation, when they get used to it.

Psychedelics use the mind, they take it apart and to other functional modules of the brain, without one having the chance of controlling where this will be(from the temporal lobe to maybe the hearing-locus of the brain) and without knowing the effects, that these info causes in these brain-regions or without knowing, what it causes to these brain-regions.

I stand by my previous statements. SWIM has taken psychedelics several times, having a horrible experience and a particularly incredible one among these. SWIM honestly doesn't feel his personality has been fundamentally changed - although, having a penchant for philosophy, he hates to refer to personality as some kind of absolute thing - despite the power of these experiences, and if he had not painstakingly worked through one of these in the way that he did, happening to reach the 'conclusions' (so to speak) that he did, he would have been left simply with a few traumatic experiences, worthwhile but not life-changing.

Besides, psychedelics do not 'take apart' the brain, nor do they redirect anything within the brain. The molecule acts as a pseudo-neurotransmitter, binding to receptors in a way that mimics similar native neurotransmitters, producing vastly different perception as this is parsed within the brain.

As for the rest of your post, I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

EDIT:

So getting back to TM opinion, it won´t cause an peronality-change in the sense of an whole new person, but it does do so, as all expereinces do, which are more-or less-meaningful and concerning the aspects and the nature of a psychedelic trip, directly dealing with a person´s mentality, which is a great part of his personality ( you can´t divide 1+1=2 by saying I chose 1+1 and it´s not an addition result in the end) it will more-or-less change the person´s metnality and personality in the end.

As you say, all experiences change you. Everything is what you make of it. That doesn't make psychedelics a special case in any way, or an active catalyst for change in a way that all other things are not.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Appreciate your discussion in this thread.

[Deliverence]

I voted other, because I believe YES and NO
After a psychedelic trip or during, there are many many thoughts and perceptions a person can link to the drug and therefor decide whether it has been a positive experience or not. Some would say that it was life changing and there has made them a better person and this i think all depends on the person, because as opposed to a person who is very interested in the psychedelics family compared to a person who say got drugged with liquid LSD or another type of psychedelics. There trips and perceptions of the drug will be FAR different.

So YES in the right hands psychedelics can be a very powerful tool to harnest your mind, body and soul

but NO i don't believe it is that life changing and that "make a person better" for everyone