Hot water Vs cold water extraction

[Mammon]

SWIM knows this has been discussed before but he just wants to get the current consensus on whether hot (50 - 65 degrees) water extraction from CPS (SWIM can't get access to latex ) or cold water extraction is best.

SWIM favours hot because it's quicker and CPS left in cold water starts to ferment, which, although it doesn't alter the product, SWIM dislikes on aesthetic grounds and seems to produce grim residues.

God knows why SWIM's batches always start to ferment - a lot of yeast and bacteria in the countryside, or something.

So, what are the pro's and con's of HWE Vs CWE?

Cheers.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by Jamal

SWIM knows this has been discussed before but he just wants to get the current consensus on whether hot (50 - 65 degrees) water extraction from CPS (SWIM can't get access to latex ) or cold water extraction is best.

SWIM favours hot because it's quicker and CPS left in cold water starts to ferment, which, although it doesn't alter the product, SWIM dislikes on aesthetic grounds and seems to produce grim residues.

God knows why SWIM's batches always start to ferment - a lot of yeast and bacteria in the countryside, or something.

So, what are the pro's and con's of HWE Vs CWE?

Cheers.

Hot water
Pros -
Extracts better because of heat expansion of particles.
Extracts faster.
Extracts completely, pretty much 0% of wanted alkaloids will be left in starting material.
Filters better because of heat expansion of particles.

Cons-
Temperature must be controlled well.
Care must be taken to keep the solution agitated so as not to burn any material being extracted on the bottom surface of the pot which is much hotter than the solution itself (which is why a double boiler is recommended).

Cold water
Pros -
The temperature does not have to be watched.
No risk of burning any starting materials on the bottom surface of pots etc.

Cons-
Full extraction is not achievable.
No heat expansion to facilitate extraction.
Particles contract when cold making initial filtration less effective.
Time taken for a significant extraction is considerably longer.
Some theorists report fermentation of solution.

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SWIM has stated many times over the importance of adhering to the basic principals of the procedure itself. Skipping a step here and there can significantly change the end result of any theoretical experiment.

There have been many pictures and testimonies of the said theories along with the question of "what went wrong".

The answer to what went wrong is: The basic principals of the theoretical experiment were not followed.

This is not to say that the theoretic principals involved cannot be improved upon or expanded but merely suggesting that the basic principals are there as base principals which cannot be changed.

There are a number of progressions being made in the theories of filtration for example, this is great because the filtration of the solution is extremely important for a good theoretical result. The technique changes for the better but the principal of the theory remains the same.

However, if some of the other basic principals are changed or dropped all together then the result will not be of good theoretical quality.

A couple of examples would be both heat and pH. These are basic principals. The technique may change, double boiler, oven set at a specific ambient temperature, electric temperature controlled vegetable steamer etc but even though the technique may have changed slightly the principal itself has not changed.

Hope this has been of help

[Mammon]

Yeah, good summary. Basically hot water is the way to go, which is good because that's what SWIM has been using except for a few experiments, none of which produced anything worthwhile.

Out of interest, what would be the consequences of having the tea too acidic, say PH < 5.5?

Thanks, as always, for the advice.

[samuraigecko]

pH range of 5.5 to 6.5 is fine. It comes down to preference there. The more acidic something is the more efficient extraction becomes theoretically. 6.5 is considered to be optimal but there are reports of some theorists using 5.5 with good results.

[deviant_one]

Archie appreciates the info in this thread. He has also been pondering the pro's and con's of hot vs. cold extraction.

Archie wishes to insert a related but ever-so-slight detour from the original posters intent.
He recently dreamt of a box containing a number of beautiful, intact, and nearly flawless dried pods, each containing 5 or so grams of seeds.
He wonders how best he would extract the alkaloid coating from these light gray, blue-ish, and almost black seeds.
BUT he would not want to start the germination process NOR spoil them for future planting.
Ideas?
Thanks in advance.

d_one

[gunnaknow]

SWI-Deviant, that doesn't sound practical. SWIY would be better off just saving a few seeds for germination and making a tea with the remaining bulk of seeds. A very brief wash in pure ethanol might strip the alkaloids in the seed coating without damaging the endosperm or embryo but it's hardly worth it for seeds.

[deviant_one]

Archie appreciates the input. He'll keep a some aside for future.
And "bulk" is quite apropos in this case - a 1/2 pound of fresh unwashed seeds should yield a cup or two of tea!

d_one

[samuraigecko]

One heard of a lab experiment to determine the potency of unwashed seeds. This lab technician made the seed solution by gently steeping the tea in 21c water for 30 mins.

He then used this tea with good results in his lab.

Without any care he threw the seeds out the back of the laboratory without a care.
To his surprise, because it was the right time of year and the conditions were right, he had poppy seedlings a mere few days later.

It was a curious day indeed for the scientists in question.