Does it ever go away?

[Deisel]

Hello forumers.

Years ago someone who isn't me or hell, I did heroin for a while and quit cold turkey and I guess the other stress in my life was so severe that I did not even notice withdrawls. Since then swim had eaten or otherwise injested various opiates in pill form (vic, perc, morph, ect) Sometimes often enough and in high enough doses to suffer some mild withdrawls but never a lasting effect.

Well this past summer swim got depressed and stressed (gah over a woman..) and whilst working in a bad neighborhood someone offered swim heroin (cut and in caps) so he took a few and snorted them. No big deal, well over a month time or so swim became fully addicted (and injecting the drug in various qualities) and it began to get in the way of his life and work so he decided to quit. Well with the depression his doctor prescribed anti depressants and for his anxiety klonopin. The benzos just made him sleep, no matter the dosage.

He quit the heroin first, then a month later the anti depressants (because my life had come back together), then the benzos.

He had a doctor prescribe clonodine a blood pressure medicine which helped with the wd pains greatly and with the benzos he slept fairly well through the wd process.

Well he went a month drug free, well except marijuana, likely always a smoker though non dependant on it, if he smokes, well cool, if not, no big deal. Anyway after a month or better with no opiates, no benzos and no anti depressants he realized that the anxiety level that rose during withdrawels had not fallen at all. I mean he is about to have a panic attack 24/7, usually had to have alcohol to sleep.

It has been 8 months or so since quitting the heroin cold turkey (3-5 caps per day). Well he has been pretty much constantly on some sort of pill form opiate or synthetic painkiller like tramadol, usually 15mg oramorph and 5mg oxycodone since about 3 months after quitting heroin.

It's been about 3 months solid since he has not been ingesting opiates, he isnt too worried about the immediate withdrawls, he's been through them many times and can handle it no problem. But will the anxiety return, indefinitly like before, opiates are the only thing that relieves the anxiety without putting him to sleep. Just a quarter of the 1mg klonopin knocks him TFO, even after sleeping 8+ hours.

Will the anxiety ever go away? The perpetual depression and angst is enough to drive someone to the brink of insanity.

Will someone who is not me ever feel normal again?

Reputation Comments on this post:

please use "SWIM" to give a good example for others, even if certain stuff is not illegal in SWIYs home countr...

[samuraigecko]

Unsure. SWIM has had a similar problem in the past and has never felt the same since. SWIM doubts he ever will. It does lessen but its always there.

SWIM is sure that this is not the case in all cases, some people may end up feeling a heap better.

But for SWIM . . . the brink of insanity is where he lives.

[chinpokomaster]

Maybe SWIY needs a new outlet in his life. Something to stop things brewing over in his head and keep him occupied. SWIM gets panic attacks at moments of intense introspection and even though by that point it's usually too late to stop them, he finds that keeping himself occupied with other things to get on with generally stops them coming about in the first place.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

It depends on the person.My theory is people that get addicted to opiates have imabalanaces where they were unable to manufacture neccessary endorphins so they never really felt normal in the first place.This might not be the case everytime but I bet it is in many.I would like to give better and more hopeful news but swim hasn't ever really been able to feel "normal"on his own.

[Sportsguy86]

Originally Posted by Orchid_Suspiria

It depends on the person.My theory is people that get addicted to opiates have imabalanaces where they were unable to manufacture neccessary endorphins so they never really felt normal in the first place.This might not be the case everytime but I bet it is in many.I would like to give better and more hopeful news but swim hasn't ever really been able to feel "normal"on his own.

That theory is totally baseless. Perfectly normal, happy people can start taking opiates for recreation and get hooked. There really is no predisposition. It hits all types of people and walks of life. People need to start taking responsbility for their addictions and stop blaming it on their genetics. It truly is just ridiculous. I'm not saying some people aren't more prone than others (mental problems, etc.)..but for every one of those, there is just as many who are perfectly normal.

And to Salivnorium, that is awful advice. Sure, its opiates are nontoxic and don't really harm your "health", but a life of dependence on a narcotic is no way to live--unless you have severe chronic pain and have guaranteed meds from the doc. If you don't have pain and you're banking to feed your habit from the street--boy that gets old fast. Not the life to live, and it ill totally destroy everything you have. It will be all that matters to you.

Even if its the only thing that makes you feel good right now, there are better alternatives. Time usually does the trick. But it ain't easy. Good luck.

Sportsguy86 added 5 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

Oh--and to the original poster--in order to successfully quit, you HAVE to stop doing these random months of doing opiates than going clean. You have to make opiates a distant memory--and over time, how you feel while you are sober will feel normal due to repitition and habit. Kind of like before you ever tried opiates. You didn't think--oh I dont feel right, I need an opiate. Time truly works because we are all creatures of habit. How long depends on the person--but you have to get to the point where its been so long that sober feels normal. When/If you reach this point, you will still remember and know you like the feeling of opiates--but it wont be directly linked to your brain's survival instinct at the moment, because you will feel normal. You might still want to use occasionally, because you remmeber how amazing it was--but you just have to be fight and tough those out--and they get lesser and weaker over time...it only gets easier and easier...generally if one makes it past 6 months, they have a good chance of success.

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy86

That theory is totally baseless. Perfectly normal, happy people can start taking opiates for recreation and get hooked. There really is no predisposition.

So those were lucky, no predisposition? Looked good, before taking opiates, even regarding their ongoing longterm future?

And just because opiate users (exchange opiat with corticosteroids, amphetamines, anabolics or whatever drug ) has the same suspicion about opiate use and a lack of enorphinms or empathy andf some papers say differently, it doens´t mean it´s unfounded, I'd consider it more the other way around.
When human beings have observed certain facts, on themselves and in a very long real-live experience, especially those who have nothing to loose or to prove to anyone, then the papers and regular assumptions should be changed according to these observations. Obvioulsy a too hard job, because those who think they know, can´t be taught and all this in combination with a blindfold trust to the so called professionals and a blindfold trust of the professionals to some papers and laboratory work.-is in this scenarion something missing, like patient´s experience^^?).

[Salvinorum]

Opiates are nontoxic. If they are what make you happy, and nothing else seems to work, then it is the healthy choice to take them. The trick is to use, and not abuse. Opiates can be your life long companion and best friend, and judging by your post, you're the kind of person who can use them in this regard, without the risk of long term abuse.

[Lisa J]

If SWIY feels well on opiates but ill without perhaps SWIY should accept that to live a normal life it's better to stay on opiates. If the pills are easy to obtain and from a reliable source stick with them, otherwise go for methadone/buprenorphine maintenance therapy. Some people need opiates to feel normal, SWIY may be one of these, SWIM needs fentanyl & methadone to live a normal life, don't beat yourself up over it.

[cyndi]

That is difficult to say without knowing swiy's history. First he may have anxiety issues that resurfaced due to the drug abuse. Sometimes they can be perminent. He needs to speak to a doctor about that. One swiy isn't afraid to admit the opiate addiction to so the doctor knows how to advise correctly.

When swim kicks, yes she has horrible anxiety attacks without drugs even after months. However, she had this before she did any drugs. It is just worse.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good advice about seeing a doc

[joojoo99]

Orchid is right and sportsguys should read some of the latest papers in JSTOR or Blackwell websites that support depression related to endorphin deficiencies.

Anyway, SWIM knows someone who only feels right when on some kind of opioid, so he leveled on codeine and has ever since been on the same dosage for many years.

Why cant swiy's just level of on something and keep it that way? If swiy is chasing a simple fix and ahh, fine, the trouble starts when swiy chases total knock out. Swim comes from a country where many respectable people maintain opioid consumption, and most men smoke opium at weddings, occasions etc. It is tottaly possible to maintain as long as you chase the right feeling. The minute you start looking at opioids as some kind of candy that has more to offer the more you take, you will fall deep. Just chase the fixation feeling.. Ahh.. nothing more, nothing less. Where swimm comes from kids grow up seeing their fathers, uncles, grand fathers smoke opium on occasions, and they learn to develop a respect for the drug and associate it with occasions. There will always be addicts either way, but the social acceptance of something has a huge part to play in the formation of habitual users or addicts.

If opioids work for you, codeine is the safest and best kind to maintain on.

Nevertheless, swiy's anxiety feeling is probably down to the withdrawal from the benzodiazepines, they are known to cause such side effects for many months after ceasation when taken for some time at a low dose. Try drinking a few beers, that should help.

[Salvinorum]

Sportsguy..

Sorry you feel that way, but I am never one to give in to the tyrannical view of those in power.

But remember, I was under the impression that the poster has a permanent and legal connection to opiates, as well as permanent problems which are successfully treatable by opiates. If you still want to deny this person and think quitting is the better option, then I am forced to conclude that you're either some sort of statist, or just anti-drug in general.

Answer me this, why is having a daily life long relationship with an opiate a bad thing? Right, because society has a certain view of it. Nevermind that it is much much safer then poisonous life long relationships with alcohol and nicotine, and have bonus positive effects (I can't think of any positives with alcohol and nicotine, but you can convince me otherwise).

[0utrider]

swım would agree wıth sportsguy..
but stıll ıts an ındıvıdual thıng, but there usually ıs some kınd of anxıety later, dependıng on the person and the opıoıd and the tıme taken to a longer/stronger or shorter/weaker extend.
ıt sımply does ıtself cause a ımbalance.
ıf you take testosterone your balls shrınk cuz they stop producıng what ıs gıven from outsıde the body. sımılar to opıoıds, ın swıms opınıon. and ıt may take some tıme for that to become 'normal' agaın, but thıs depends on many factors. for ınstance ıf SWIY ısolated hımself over years of abuse of course ıt wıll not only be the substance but also he sımply has to learn to lıve lıfe ın a normal way agaın, to feel hıghs and lows and also to face some socıal ıssues that he maybe avoıded or just dıdnt care / thınk about or realıze.. ıts just a lot more to that than the substance ıtself (even though thats already a hughe ıssue) and also studıes (whıch are always quıte contrary, ıts actually not all so clear and obvıous as some people make ıt sound here) dont prove / say everythıng ın that context

[Deisel]

Very Insightful replya guys, I'll tell you more of swim's situation soon

[CandiGirl]

Just a thought here that SWIM has discussed in depth with opiate users. Does any SWIMMERS here agree with SWIM here that in some cases, where the user is hopelessly depressed and anti depressants have been unsuccessful, that the use of an opiate is a very good form of medication to counter out the depression and help the user in the long term. If GPs were allowed to prescribe opiates for depression and it was well monitored, SWIM believes that it could help the majority of people who turn to illegally obtained opiates and unwanted addiction.

SWIM was truly helped by opiates when SWIM was going through a very nasty time. But because SWIMs use was not monitored, it spiraled out of control.

Anyone agree?

[0utrider]

SWIM agress but exactly that scenario would be taken as an excuse for abuse in prolly 99% of all cases

[CandiGirl]

Maybe so. But surely there could be a way of monitoring the use? Or possibly developing an opiate based anti depressant that does not have addictive qualities. In most cases SWIM has seen, (SWIM runs a small group that meets once a week to discuss addiction and members recovery) the user has begun taking heroin due to a traumatic event that has occurred or is experiencing emotional distress. SWIM has yet to meet an addict who had a life that was perfect and just began using for no reason.

Back when heroin was originally made in the late 19th century it was marketed as a cough suppressant and life elixir, the addictive qualities was what gave this discovery the stigma attached to it today.

Within SWIMs group of recovering addicts, all have one thing in common, the depression they all feel since quitting. Was the depression present before the use of opiates began? Or is it a result of the opiates no longer being present in the body? SWIM thinks the answer would be both. Addiction is complex, there are too many Drug Treatment Programmes that think the answer to addiction is simply to take away the drug and or replace it with a prescription substitute. SWIM has attended several of these organizations where the substitution with either methadone or subutex (or similar) seems to be the solution. In the area where SWIM lives the statistics of users on methadone maintenance scripts is approximately 80%. Therefore surely it would be beneficial to create a form of opiate for depressed users that does not have the addictive qualities of heroin and its replacement medication and also treats the patients depression.

Just a thought, may seem a little out there, but......!

[UNIBLACK810]

Originally Posted by CandiGirl

Maybe so. But surely there could be a way of monitoring the use? Or possibly developing an opiate based anti depressant that does not have addictive qualities. In most cases SWIM has seen, (SWIM runs a small group that meets once a week to discuss addiction and members recovery) the user has begun taking heroin due to a traumatic event that has occurred or is experiencing emotional distress. SWIM has yet to meet an addict who had a life that was perfect and just began using for no reason.

Back when heroin was originally made in the late 19th century it was marketed as a cough suppressant and life elixir, the addictive qualities was what gave this discovery the stigma attached to it today.

Within SWIMs group of recovering addicts, all have one thing in common, the depression they all feel since quitting. Was the depression present before the use of opiates began? Or is it a result of the opiates no longer being present in the body? SWIM thinks the answer would be both. Addiction is complex, there are too many Drug Treatment Programmes that think the answer to addiction is simply to take away the drug and or replace it with a prescription substitute. SWIM has attended several of these organizations where the substitution with either methadone or subutex (or similar) seems to be the solution. In the area where SWIM lives the statistics of users on methadone maintenance scripts is approximately 80%. Therefore surely it would be beneficial to create a form of opiate for depressed users that does not have the addictive qualities of heroin and its replacement medication and also treats the patients depression.

Just a thought, may seem a little out there, but......!

After reading alot of SWIAOY above swim is an agreeance with 95% of the post. As one said "addiction is a tricky thing" but as always definetly varies from person to person. Swim in the past has posted an almost similar post regarding this same scenario to which SWIM received alot of valuable information. Swim has been free from heroin for 2 years. swim is also not on any replacement therapy as swim was forced to quit cold turkey. Swim has not felt the same since stopping. Swim feels miserable every single day in and out, it never stops. The only time swim feels normal i.e has energy enthusiasm,drive,good mood,motivation etc. is when swim comes across a synthetic opiate such as a vic,oxy,perc or so forth which is not very often. But as soon as swim takes it swim feels perfectly fine again. Swim has researched and spent countless hours looking for some sort of miracle cure but has not came across anything too promising as of yet. Swim is @ the point where swim does not want a "HIGH" from an opiate. Swim just wants to feel as if SWIM is comfortable in his own skin. However swim is very pessimistic about that ever happening as swim feels this feeling will always be a part of swim's life from now on.

~~~~~~~~ I once complained about having no shoe's, that was until I met a man who had no feet.

[DyersEV]

I think swif needs to consider a very basic guide to happiness. Basically if you suffer in one area of your life, whether it is your health, wealth or relationships, you will feel it in all aspects of your life. SWIM mentioned a depressing break up with a girlfriend and seems to think that doing drugs and kicking the habit fixed the problem. Well SWIM is sorry to say, if you filled that void with drugs, that void is still going to exist when you remove that drugs.

Swif needs to stop looking for external reason for why swif doesn’t feel “normal”. How about instead of doing drugs or looking for some chemical imbalance in your brain (that probably doesn’t exist) you go out and try to improve relationships with your parents’ bother or sister. FIND A NEW GIRLFRIEND. You don’t like your job get a new one. Stop thinking that you’re not “normal” and trying to find the easy fix, life in not easy! It’s going to take a lot of work so GET AT IT.

[UNIBLACK810]

Originally Posted by DyersEV

I think swif needs to consider a very basic guide to happiness. Basically if you suffer in one area of your life, whether it is your health, wealth or relationships, you will feel it in all aspects of your life. SWIM mentioned a depressing break up with a girlfriend and seems to think that doing drugs and kicking the habit fixed the problem. Well SWIM is sorry to say, if you filled that void with drugs, that void is still going to exist when you remove that drugs.

Swif needs to stop looking for external reason for why swif doesn’t feel “normal”. How about instead of doing drugs or looking for some chemical imbalance in your brain (that probably doesn’t exist) you go out and try to improve relationships with your parents’ bother or sister. FIND A NEW GIRLFRIEND. You don’t like your job get a new one. Stop thinking that you’re not “normal” and trying to find the easy fix, life in not easy! It’s going to take a lot of work so GET AT IT.

Please read the rules first before posting. Than please be specific about who you are ACTUALLY refering to in your post.

[DyersEV]

I'm pretty sure i'm talking about the only person who mentioned losing a girlfriend, or maybe i'm talking about the guy who started this thread.

[stoneinfocus]

Wel., what could have been the alternative -alcohol addiction?
I know that anybody could handle another man´s situtation way better then the man himself and that life actually is wonderful with bees and birds and flowers and so on... .

My point of criticism to Deisel´s post wold be that it´s not clear wether he´s been using opiates occasionally before or just began using it at this stage of his life... .

And to DyersEV (EV means registered society where I´m from): While most parts of your posts sounds intriguingly conclusive, these suggestions have been tried before and have to be dismissed as they´re not working and make people die permanently.Die! If something´s not working it´s not working, simple as that and all the flowers and blue skys in the worlsd won´t change anything to the matter of fact, that some just don´t see any flowers or blue skies without certain drugs, ever.

Whilst some of your aguments are being appreciated and should well be worth having another critical at one´s situation, the context in which they´re being represented is a restrictive one and restrictions will do harm to applying any of them to a free minded grown up man.

If candy were being forced upon you as the only existing alternative and spinach were forbidden, you wouldn´t like candy anymore and probably you'd eat spinach instead of candies, makling it was more delicious than candy.
And some men might be needing spinach as this makes their very individual and doomed life worth living in and those eating candy might not undestand this.

On plus, an individual live is so complicated and adapted in so many ways to the enviroment in such a well balanced system, that changing or restricting just a littel part of it, is desasterous.

Enough flaming, as outrider said it, the anxiety might be from the benzos or the combination of opiates and benzos, swim ghas never experienced angst afer comign off a year of tramadol witzh some h now and then, but just a "withdrawl" of a few days of benzos makes his angst and PTSD exacerbate.I think benzios are a bad deal considering their relieve from anxiety to the rebound of the latter the next days unless one was willing to spend his live being on benzos.-and the anxiety bounces back several days nearyl a week later after stopping them, so in swim, he didn´t even realize this could have been due to the benzos.

And as a side note, swim developed an "psychiatric" withdraw from tramadol(felt pretty damn uncomfortable but disappeared quickly after 1-2 days), after he started smoking cigarettes again, considering that smoking seems to be a must for developing an addiction to opiates, this issue should be addressed also, because opiates are restricted and hard to get.

[Lisa J]

SWIM hadn't touched a cigarette for years but started smoking again within days of quitting heroin, silly really as now she's got to stop smoking again.

[sarbanes]

It'll go away (the anxiety) with time and energy (working out, therapy, etc). People also ask the related questions, "If I stop all opioids, will it be able to be like it was before?" I say YES, absolutely. Of course, its never 100% the same, as we are always changing, and our brains are changing as well. But it has very much been my experience, that as far as opioids are concerned, abstinence MOST DEFFINATELY makes the heart grow fonder. IOW, if I taper down and go through a few days of mild/moderate WD/boredom, and then I dose again, OH YEAH! It will feel all the better, and JUST like old times. Problem is: how easy is it to do that. We use what we have=no discipline. Sry if got off topic a bit