USA - Obama's Newest Burden

[juanathan]

I would love to have a muslim or part-muslim president just so we'll have something going for us when Pakistan's nukes fall into the hands of the Pakistani people and not the fraudulent, US-backed regime that currently governs.

Reputation Comments on this post:

uhhhh 2+2=4

[Woodman]

In Republican circles, it was widely rumored that the Democrat Super Delegates would go to Mrs. Clinton.

I never could see how self-respecting democrats could let that happen; but then I still can't figure out how any self-respecting Republicans could endorse McCaine.

I'm thinking that Mrs. Clinton is to the Democrats what John McCaine is to Republicans.

[RaverHippie]

Originally Posted by Woodman

but then I still can't figure out how any self-respecting Republicans could endorse McCaine.

probably the same republicans who perturbed conservatism so much that every BIG industry is subsidized as an alternate means to the same end an import tariff would allow, for domestic businesses atleast.

[El Calico Loco]

When I compare the bureaucratic socialism of the Democrats with the corporate mercantilism favored by the Republicans, I'm reminded of the last line from Animal Farm.


ECL

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by El Calico Loco

When I compare the bureaucratic socialism of the Democrats with the corporate mercantilism favored by the Republicans, I'm reminded of the last line from Animal Farm. ECL

Funny, both parties seem to embrace 'corporate mercantilism'!

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Funny, both parties seem to embrace 'corporate mercantilism'!

True enough. I believe Billary has received more contributions from the military-industrial complex than McKhan has.

What amuses me is those "progressives" who think the answer to big corporate power is big government power - as if the government were not the greatest enabler of the rich and powerful.


zera: No kidding. Republicans talk the talk of free enterprise, but they don't walk the walk. This kind of mercantilist corporatism, with its business subsidies and corporate-state partnerships, is exactly the kind of thing Adam Smith, godfather of the free market, was arguing against in The Wealth of Nations. We need separation of business and state.

I'm not sure about Obama. I'm willing to give him a chance. I know for sure that Hillary and McNuts are demons; Obama may not be. I'm not looking forward to his NaziCare, but it would be worth it if he got us out of war and torture.


ECL
(Not that I'm all that hopeful.)

[zera]

Originally Posted by El Calico Loco

When I compare the bureaucratic socialism of the Democrats with the corporate mercantilism favored by the Republicans, I'm reminded of the last line from Animal Farm.


ECL

Anytime a politician tries to claim he's a free marketer he should immediately be asked two questions

1) Do you support free markets in the $100 billion dollar recreational drug industry? Or do you support complete government dictation of what people can buy, sell and consume? Do you support throwing some of America's hardest working entrepreneurs in jail for operating their businesses? Do you support prohibition which raises prices by more than 10 fold, what kind of free marketer supports 1000% taxes?

2) Do you support free markets in agricultural markets? Or do you support what essentially amounts to fascist state control of the industry, through subsidies to billion dollar companies, quotas and regulations that raise the cost of food and impact the poor the most, and importation tariffs that essentially blocks dirt poor third world farmers from operating in the one market where the their competitive advantage exists?

My guess is 99% of politicians on the national level in both parties would fail these basic tests, and have no right to claim they support free markets or free enterprise.

[allyourbase]

swim isnt going to try and rep slam but wholeheartedly disagrees. the answer to fundamentalist islamic extremism is not to occupy their land for 100 years. the simple fact is that we won the iraq war, and we are losing the current iraq occupation because we are trying to play too large a roll. I dont think any candidate right now has a trully legitimate working solution for iraq. I honestly dont think should we leave that iran will be playing all that large a roll itself, as turkuumen have a storied tradition of despising persians.

[Salvinorin A]

I do think it more relevant now, given interest rate/credit crunch, real estate crisis (check out all the fixed-rate adds and reverse mortgage solicitation), the falling dollar, and sky-rocketing oil prices.

SWIM thinks these problems will affect him the most right now. Well actually, where swim lives...real estate didn't hit too hard (lucky swim for living in these rich white communities). And as for oil.......swim believes that as we all find other sources of energy.....this problem will hopefully subside.....if cars get off oil..that will help a bunch (2009, mitsubishi releases first..like actual....full production....lithium battery? car.....swim will try to find an article). That and more work with getting solar power...we might be able to work out some energy problems....and with companies like the ones swim is in (working on sequestering CO2 from the atmosphere)....that should help out global warming as well.

But swim will probably be more affected by economic issues. He wants to finish his education...(considering that swim plans on grad school...and possibly doctorate...swim is pretty worried that he won't be able to finish..that's a lot of years)..if collapse happens in the middle of it (before any degree at the moment)....swim is pretty much screwed. And who knows...maybe a war will take the US out of a collapse (possibly a war that will be in the middle east?). Once again...not good for swim.

Another thing to consider...being a californian. The bay area has got to be one of the greatest places to nuke.......so much technology and financial industries....and it's a valley........ALL DEAD!

SWIM wishes a candidate could effectively make good efforts to fix these problems...but swim guesses that the reason we don't hear many specific plans is because there probably isn't any definitive answer to these problems.

...and for Christ's sake.....Obama is not a Muslim....and even if he was...at least he doesn't seem like the kind of president that "prays in his office."

Sal-A

..oh...and don't take swim's speculation too seriously.

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by Salvinorin A

And who knows...maybe a war will take the US out of a collapse (possibly a war that will be in the middle east?). Once again...not good for swim.

Out of a collapse? Not likely. Wars don't create labor and capital - they destroy it. A few select, connected firms benefit at the expense of the commoners. Many believe that war is good for the economy; it's just a large-scale example of the broken window fallacy. The Iraq war will be at least 3 Trillion down the rathole.

SWIM wishes a candidate could effectively make good efforts to fix these problems...but swim guesses that the reason we don't hear many specific plans is because there probably isn't any definitive answer to these problems.

There are known solutions to most of our problems, but politicians rarely speak of them because they are not in the interest of their puppet masters. Money is the mother's milk of politics. Most politicians these days just promise to give everyone something for nothing - in effect, to create wealth ex nihilo.


ECL

[Salvinorin A]

SWIM was mostly refering to WWII......the US government's efforts were not enough to re-stimulate the economy....in fact, I think it's speculated that if more money was spent during the Depression, we might have naturally worked ourselves out of it. But in reality, WWII gave almost everyone jobs (whether they wanted to or not for most men).

And then more importantly....when a lot of the vets came back. They wanted to get a family and settle down (-> baby boomers).....which stimulated many markets such as real estate..automobile...merchandise.

The Iraq War.....yeah swim agrees in this case....but swim thinks this war was fought on some pretty different circumstances.

As for swim's speculation........the Middle East is a hotbed right now (especially if we left Iraq).....something can go boom (some country with nuclear weapons maybe).....another mess can happen over there.....then consider how many Muslims we have in the US.....detention camps again? massive racism? another scare? Eventually something will happen to us.....and then we have involvement.

Again, swim doesn't really expect this all to happen (and wishes it doesn't).....he just wants to point out a very possible repeat in history.

Sal-A

[allyourbase]

wholly incorrect my friend. the key to the end of the depression was NOT the mediocre amounts of money people made in military service but purposefully by the government afterward with what is called discresionary spending. the creation of the middle class was fueled by the redistribution of wealth AFTER world war 2. foremost among these was the original GI bill. Also we had what was called the glass steagle act (I think thats the correct title) which regulated which funds taken in by banks could be used for what purpose, and which has recently been repealed by the neocon congress before the 2006 switch. The great depression was caused by peoples moneys being handed off to investment bankers who then tried to make more money with it through various forms of financial speculation. our current crisis is happening because this act was repealed by the neocons quite recently. so just as in the great depression, banks now do not actually have the full amounts of peoples moneys liquid and on hand, as when you hand your money to a bank it is used as collateral for speculation. granted we now have the FDIC so should there actually be a run on the banks, people forming lines to retrieve their money, the fed will just print new money, creating huge ripples of expansionary inflation, but allowing people to have their physical money in hand, even if its only worth a fraction of what it once was. the investment bankers, aided by the neocons, have had us all bent over a barrel for the past decade while lending out billions of hard working peoples savings on investments for their corperations which for the most part have fallen through, and now the republican fascists in power, and that geriatric traitor running for office are saying it is somehow OUR fault.

[Woodman]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

the creation of the middle class was fueled by the redistribution of wealth AFTER world war 2.

Actually, the creation of the middle class was brought about by a booming American manufacturing industry after WWII; an industry that was created to support the war effort and was eventually converted to serve commercial interests in the private sector.

With more production came greater income. Higher income generates more tax revenue.

Now, if you raise the tax rate high enough, you make it unfeesable (that means, "too expensive") to conduct business. No one starts new businesses because the risk is too great and the cost (due to high tax rate) is too high. The economy suffers and the result is a recession.

This is a concept that Liberals can't seem to understand, and that's why a general tax-cut for everyone is denounced as a tax-cut for the wealthy; nevermind that there are far more poor and middleclass people than there are wealthy who will benefit from such a tax cut. Liberals don't (and probably never will) understand how a tax-cut stimulates the economy and actually works to generate MORE tax revenue.

Stalin, Kruschev, Brezjnev, Castro, Mao, and even the N. Korean leader Kim Jong Il all prove that widespread redistribution of wealth doesn't work.

Originally Posted by allyourbase

The great depression was caused by peoples moneys being handed off to investment bankers who then tried to make more money with it through various forms of financial speculation. our current crisis is happening because this act was repealed by the neocons quite recently.

The great depression was brought about by over leveraging and lack of liquidity; buying 100 dollars worth of stock by depositing only 5-10 dollars.

If the stock drops by $15, you've lost your deposit (leverage), and become indebted for the difference.

The current situation with an overabundance of adjustable rate mortgages and foreclosures & bankruptcies that result from higher interest rates are not merely the fault of Republicans alone. Blaming Neocons for the fucked-up state of the economy does not absolve liberal Democrats of their own culpability in this mess.

IMO, a Democrat will fuck you faster and more frequently than a Republican.
A Republican may lead you on a little bit, but will fuck you far more violently than a Democrat, they just won't fuck you quite as often.

[allyourbase]

Originally Posted by Woodman

Actually, the creation of the middle class was brought about by a booming American manufacturing industry after WWII; an industry that was created to support the war effort and was eventually converted to serve commercial interests in the private sector.

granted to some extent. these revenues allowed for discresionary spending which built infrastructure to support people in these jobs, thereby giving more mundane workers (construction workers and the like) jobs building that infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Woodman

Stalin, Kruschev, Brezjnev, Castro, Mao, and even the N. Korean leader Kim Jong Il all prove that widespread redistribution of wealth doesn't work.

their sort of redistribution is far different from ours. they took everything the wealthy had, wholesale, whereas our tax system is just that, a tax. and as pointed out above, these funds are quite often used in the building of infrastructure arguably benefit everyone. I myself am a georgist, and disagree with our current tax system, particularly capital gains and income taxes. the wealthy do pay most of the taxes, but in terms of actual percentages of income they often pay less than half of the percentage the average person must pay. so that these tax cuts, particularly the more recent ones, are very much for the rich, it may seem inconsequential that they now pay only 96% of total taxes as opposed to 97% of total taxes but when that 1% is that high a number, being taken from the hardest working americans it has very real consequences, one of which being the economic stresses were seeing now. that 1% is comprised almost wholly of what was these peoples' disposable income, ours is a consumer driven economy, despite what the supply-side economic schills would have us believe, and without a disposable income, no one can be a dutiful consumer.

Originally Posted by Woodman

The great depression was brought about by over leveraging and lack of liquidity; buying 100 dollars worth of stock by depositing only 5-10 dollars.

this is EXACTLY our problem now, bear stearns had lent something like 400 billion, while having only 22 million in liquidity. the fact that the speculatory deals have switched from stocks to real estate only shows the ever so slight intellectual evolution of these fiends, in that real estate is arguably a lot more stable than stocks. it is still the average persons money being used inappropriately for financial speculation.

allyourbase added 26 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

also a point I should have made. when taxes are lowered predominately for the rich, but granted middle income workers got a taste as well, and both the economy and productivity are expanding, but income levels for those middle americans are not, it is not just a tax break for the rich, it is a tax hike for the poor. as those taxes represent increasing percentages of their income.

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

I myself am a georgist, and disagree with our current tax system, particularly capital gains and income taxes.

Another one? Neat.

I came over to geoism (my preferred term, since the idea predates Henry George) from libertarianism (damn near ancap), so my perspective on the GD (Great Depression, or God Damn!) is a little different than those on the left or right. The Left thinks the New Deal got us out of the GD; the right thinks it was The Good War. I think they're both wrong. The question should not be "What got us out of it?" but "What the fuck kept us in it so long, since all previous panics had been recovered from quickly?" Robert Higgs's explanation (PDF) makes sense to me.

One of my favorite economists to read is Fred Foldvary, editor of The Progress Report. He combines geoism with elements of Austrian economics. I'm sure he'd agree that the cause of the GD was rampant, leveraged speculation in finance and real estate, but I think he would also agree with the Austrians that the Fed's inflationary policy fueled the speculation. Much as it's been doing in recent years...

The important part: not one of the presidential candidates offered to us this election season could follow this conversation, with the possible exception of Ron Paul (who would disagree with the geoist theory). Hillary and McCain know even less about economics than they do about hip-hop. I'm not sure about Obama, but his desire to nationalize a huge sector of the economy leaves me thinking that he'd be in the same category...except that he might know less about hip-hop than McCain.


ECL

Reputation Comments on this post:

funny post haha and great post -truth

[beentheredonethatagain]

so obamba says we are a bunch of bitter , gun toting, church going people. Owning guns is the american way, church is why this country is great, and I am not bitter nor are the people I know, we are happy people who deal with our problems.

Barac hussien obama dosent stand a chance.

[Panthers007]

So sayeth a dead president...

[truth]

John Mccain will win because he is in the Trilateral Commission. Thats why our past presidents have been our past presidents. Its not up to us. They already know the winner.

AND CHURCH IS NOT WHY THIS COUNTRY IS GREAT.
Religion is slavery
If there is other life out there
Which we are a grain of sand in the universe
you think jesus visits everywhere?
religion is man made for hope to distract you.
fuck religion, its the reason most of this shit is started
There is something out there far greater then we can comprehend and its not jesus or anything from the bible.
Dont get me wrong the bible has knowledge and respect beenthere for his faith.
But in reality if you really think about it and read it
its deeper then anything we can understand
and the bible and Christianity is not the right religion
Nor any religion, they all deserve the same respect.
Me being 18 and seeing the way people process things is really funny
Some people really are brainwashed
subconsciously
everything you see is an illusion, a lie, to decieve us.
NO PRESIDENT should be idolized or be looked up as a hero
They are all corrupt lying sick fucks that cause democide
And lie about everything and set up every war.

Reagan was just as fucked up as Bush. Reagan brought coke into the inner cities then made these drug acts to make more money, and is mostly the reason we have poverty. They do this to keep us struggling, the middle class working their ass of to barely make it and keep us from thinking and revolting. Its all planed. Also, Iran-Contra Affair. Its time for americans and people in general to wake up. Like seriously Now. Because this is now, its our lives, and its pathetic.

[Panthers007]

You seem to have overlooked one small, recent detail: The 'middle-class' was officially buried last week. It died when the consumer-price index caught up with transportation costs associated with the record profits made by the oil industry. It's over. Say a prayer. Toss a flower. Buy local only.

Welcome to Brazil.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=296227

[allyourbase]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

You seem to have overlooked one small, recent detail: The 'middle-class' was officially buried last week. It died when the consumer-price index caught up with transportation costs associated with the record profits made by the oil industry. It's over. Say a prayer. Toss a flower. Buy local only.

Welcome to Brazil.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=296227

slightly off topic, but have you ever had the chance to hear "brunch with bernie"?

[truth]

it really is happening and no one is doing anything. Im really thinking about leaving the country. Im 18 and i See this and its pathetic. And everyone is so narrow minded out there. And religiously brainwashed. And they don't even follow their religion they just preach it cuz mommy and daddy did. Its sad. I feel so hopeless at times. I see no point in working 40-50 hours a week and getting to relax for one day and stress out all the time and shit. And not only i go through this, everyone does. But will we ever make it change? Idk. I really dont see it

[truth]

clinton or obama wont win it will be mccain . just member i said it

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by truth

clinton or obama wont win it will be mccain . just member i said it

Yeah, great! Another 100 years in Iraq, courtesy of an unstable old psychopath. Surely the US can't be that stupid! But still the end of US hegemony is getting closer.

Even the dreadful Hillary Clinton can't be that bad! McCain, proud member of a another deadly war of aggression, in fact collaborated with the 'gooks' he so despises.

“McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital ...

“His Vietnamese captors soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line in the American military elite. . .The Vietnamese realized, this poor stooge has propaganda value. The admiral’s boy was used to special treatment, and his captors knew that. They were working him.”

“. . .two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not ‘name rank and serial number, or kill me’. as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships.”

“…McCain was held for five and half years. The first two weeks’ behavior might have been pragmatism, but McCain soon became North Vietnam’s go-to collaborator…..McCain cooperated with the North Vietnamese for a period of three years. His situation isn’t as innocuous as that of the French barber who cuts the hair of the German occupier. McCain was repaying his captors for their kindness and mercy.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04192008.html

Reputation Comments on this post:

flamer is not aolllowed

[Panthers007]

Oh yeah. We get all sorts of opportunities to see/hear Bernie. He's like Elvis - he's everywhere.

[Panthers007]

The Amerikan-Nationalist Party (formerly Republicans) has only recently even made a dent in the polls. And this only because they stuck their sound gear in places like Nebraska and Wyoming. McCain is going to get his clock cleaned in an unprecedented avalanche of democratic voting. Hell's bells - look at all the new voters who have popped out of the woodwork and campuses. Does anyone really think that a formerly disenfranchised group of non-voters suddenly walked in out of the rain to vote for Hanoi John - whose foreign policy experience consisted of screaming while being poked with sharp sticks in a cage? Really now. Get a grip. Send McCain a Get Well card and enjoy your ride through the most groundbreaking election cycle in US history.