Combinations - Mixing Hydromorphone HP50 with Powder

[Chopin]

SWIM has a significant amount of Hydrophone HP50 bottles

very concentrated, each ml contains 50 mg of hydromorphone hydrochloride


SWIM is curious whether its chemically possible to turn this liquid into powder form and how to go about doing so

SWIMs backup plan would be to take a powder base, such as crushed up as aspirin and add a droplet of HP50

the ratio would be (0.08 ml = 4 mg) HP : 300 mg aspirin



SWIM has unrelated chemistry experience but never in this field or with this substance. some questions




would the liquid form absorb into the powder and have its presence remain ?
SWIM is thinking of possi-bly pressing this 'laced' powder into pill form via presser.

would SWIM essentially be creating something similar in nature to oxycodone by doing this ?

is SWIM completely off base ? if so what is the best way to turn liquid into a friendly form for NON IV users, preferably pill form ?



any guidance into the right direction would be greatly appreciated

[JaWill88]

swim would assume if this solution was water and hydromorphone it could be set out to evaporate and would yield a powder but swim could definately be wrong.

[samuraigecko]

One definitely would not be using asprin or acetaminophen for this purpose. SWIyou are better of asking this question in the chemistry section of the forum.

Just use the forum search and SWIyou will find that section strait away.

Another way to do this would be to use plain chalk but again SWIyou are better off asking people in the chem section.

Hope this has been of help.

[Chopin]

swim would assume if this solution was water and hydromorphone

the brand is Sandoz - Hydromorphone HP50 and to my knowledge appears to be anhydrous, meaning free of any water.... it says Injection USP /

highly concentrated hydromorphone HCI solution

the instruction state it should be "used without dilution only in opioid tolerant patients requiring high doses of of opiate agonists"

One definitely would not be using asprin or acetaminophen for this purpose

SWIM got the idea because oxycodone brands such as Percodan use the ingredients of (oxycodone hydrochloride, oxycodone teraphathalate, and aspirin)





in a nutshell...........SWIM wants to know if this solution can be turned into anything pill form, preferably oxycodone


I will take this to the chemistry section if no leads develop





respect

[amblerg]

im not sure i understand what you want to do. if you want to make oxycodone out of hydromorphone, i believe you have a very large amount of work to do and chemistry supplies to buy.

if you are just trying to make it into conviennt 'pills' you can easily dose with, that is much easier. capsules are sold at most grocery stores.

Reputation Comments on this post:

inefficacious advice

[samuraigecko]

It cannot be turned into Oxycodone.

Oxycodone is a drug of its own and what SWIyou have there is hydromorphone.
If SWIyou were to turn it into a pill form then you would have hydromorphone tablets.
SWIyou can do this with plain chalk, glucose or a number of other cutting agents which can be used to form a pill.

If it is in a bottle which is for immediate IV use, then it would already be in an injectable form, Meaning pre - pH adjusted (with HCl) aqueous solution as all other premixed injection solutions are.

One would not be able to obtain an anhydrous solution of this kind unless it was strait from a manufacturer to a pharmaceutical company whom prepares it. These anhydrous solutions would come as a concentrate and is not suitable for injection as is.

Another way to tackle this is to set the liquid out to dry into crystals. This could then be dissolved into a suitable solution containing a basifying agent. When dried out again one would be left with a hydromorphone base with a set amount of mg as per weight.

An example would be 10mg Hydromorphone / 300mg base.

etc, the best bet to find the information needed for all this is back in the chem section which one is sure that SWIyou have already done.

But be assured that Hydromorphone cannot be turned into Oxycodone as they are two separate opiates made in two separate ways.

Hydromorphone, a hydrogenated ketone of morphine
Oxycodone, a semi synthetic opioid made from the Thebaine alkaloid model.

So as SWIyou can see they are made from totally different opiate alkaloids all together.

Hope this has been of help

Reputation Comments on this post:

useful advice

[Chopin]

thank you samurai

One would not be able to obtain an anhydrous solution of this kind unless it was strait from a manufacturer to a pharmaceutical company whom prepares it. These anhydrous solutions would come as a concentrate and is not suitable for injection as is.

how can I find out for sure........SWIM thinks it is straight from the manufacturer

the fact sheet that came along with the box seems to state one can inject the solution as is, subcutaneously / intramuscular

or for intravenous use, to be diluted for IV infusion in 5% dextrose injection, 0.9% sodium chloride injection or Ringers Solution to the desired concentration


each ml contains 50mg of hydromorphone hydrochloride.........what is usual human tolerance ? dosage ?

Another way to tackle this is to set the liquid out to dry into crystals. This could then be dissolved into a suitable solution containing a basifying agent. When dried out again one would be left with a hydromorphone base with a set amount of mg as per weight.

SWIM is starting to realize this may be the best method

what is the the best method to set it out to dry ?

pour the contents in a dish, leave in open environment and display the virtue of patience ?




SWIM came across the following line on wikipedia

Hydromorphone hydrochloride (anhydrous) is the salt used in virtually all hydromorphone products and in prescription compounding. The free base conversion ratio of this salt is 0.89.

can SWIM make a free base out of the solution SWIM has, same way cocaine freebase is produced ? despite it being liquid not salt / rock / pill form ?




FINAL inquiry (for now)

perhaps this is too easy, but would the following 'work'

you are just trying to make it into conviennt 'pills' you can easily dose with, that is much easier. capsules are sold at most grocery stores.

can SWIM press a pill or get a pill made only of non active base (chalk, lactose, etc) and use an infusion pump to (or any other device that can administer fractions of a ml (any suggestions) ) and apply desired dosage onto the pill, with the intention of the pill absorbing the solution

would that work ?






SWIM pardons SWIMS attempt to fit a triangle into a circle









thanks guys

[samuraigecko]

To infuse the solution into a base using fractions of a ml would not be needed. If SWIyou used a certain amount of the said filler type SWIyou choose then the ratio can be figured into the equation

An example would be:
If each ml contains 50mg of hydromorph then all one would need to do is work out the ratio for the filler.

Lets say that they are 30ml bottles (1oz bottles) then there would be a total of 1500mg per bottle.
Now hypothetically SWIwe take 50gr of whatever base/filler SWIyou decide to use and use a small chem process to bind it to said filler.
This would make 30mg per gram of filler.

The following conversion ratio is provided for dosage comparison:
Hydromorphone hydrochloride (anhydrous) is the salt used in virtually all hydromorphone products and in prescription compounding. The free base conversion ratio of this salt is 0.89. Some brands of hydromorphone tablets contain small amounts of sulphites. Hydromorphone's oral to intravenous effectiveness ratio is 5:1 and equinalgesia conversion ratio (hydromorphone HCl to anhydrous morphine sulphate, IV, SC, or IM) is 8:1 and is about 4:1 orally. This means that 30 mg of immediate-release morphine by mouth is similar in analgesic effect to 7.5 mg of hydromorphone by mouth, 10 mg of morphine by injection, and 1.5 mg of hydromorphone by injection. These doses also correspond to about 30 mg of hydrocodone, 24 mg of oxycodone, 200 mg of codeine, 135 mg of dihydrocodeine, 20 mg of dihydromorphine, 15 mg of nicomorphine, 12 mg of heroin, 34 mg of piritramide, circa or about 18 mg of ketobemidone, and 8 mg of dextromoramide by the default routes of administration and 60 mg of extended-release morphine via the oral route. These figures which can vary from person to person, especially with oral administration, on account of such things as relative and absolute levels of some liver enzymes, system pH, and others.

As SWIyou can see Hydromorphone is quite potent and the above hypothetical situation for making a pill is just that, hypothetical. 30mg of Hydromorph is not going to be much fun except for the people whom are EXTREMELY opiate tolerant. Although in this hypothetical situation if one were to split it into "points" of grams then one would achieve the following result.

0.1gr of theoretical powder now contains 3mg of Hydromorphone. Twice the medicinal dosage and around the recreational equivalent dosage as 3mg of Hydromorphone would be the same as 20mg of Morphine when used IV route.

Through these conversions SWIyou can quite easily figure out what ratio of filler to use to get the desired oral equivalence. Research will show choice of filler and technique to be used quite easily.

Hope this has been of help