Opinions - opioids or opium is so good, why do people shun it so?

[bloodred1889]

ok so swim was just having some thoughts about opioids.

swim has to take DHC for the pain she gets.
and her doctors said that if after her MRI results, they cant find anything wrong then she will be taken off them

anyway..

swim realised a while ago just how good opioids are at everything they do.

in the last 6 months swim has had a kidney stone, severe flu, been extremaly hungover(like you do)
had diarrhea for about 3 months, had insomnia, been in pain and many more things.

and she has found that opioids cure every single one of these things.
even a cold can be sent packing with just one pill.

swim knows in another thread she mentioned she might be having withdrawels, but all the above things havnt been related to WD even though they are similer.

the point swim is trying to make is, if opiods are so good and have so many uses, known for treating coughs and diarrea not to mention how effective they are for pain, then why the hell are they illeagal in some countries, not available over the counter and doctors hardly ever prescribe them.

swim knows that they are highly addictive but then again there just isnt anything that comes close to how good opioids actually are.

why cant they somehow come up with a alternative that does the same things but isnt as addictive?

people say that the best invention to man was Penicillin, but swim thinks actually the greatest descovery was opium.

apart from the obvious answer of its highly addictive, what arev peoples thoughts on this, do you think opioids are a wonder drug, or more trouble then they are worth.

[Paracelsus]

If substitutes are available, there is no need for highly addictive opiates to be used. For example, many non-addictive drugs are effective antidiarrheics (e.g. loperamide); minor pains and aches (such as headaches from colds) are usually controlled with milder analgesics such as NSAIDs (acetaminophen, ibuprofen, etc).

Also worth noting is the fact that opiates and opioids don't "cure" anything in most cases.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

the point swim is trying to make is, if opiods are so good and have so many uses, known for treating coughs and diarrea not to mention how effective they are for pain, then why the hell are they illeagal in some countries, not available over the counter and doctors hardly ever prescribe them.

The human abuse potential for opiates and opioids is huge and can be far greater in each individual person.

OTC strong opiates? that will never happen.

Illegal in some countries? Yes for many reason their "government" deems to be justifiable. The fact is that a fair number of hospitals all over the world cannot either afford or keep up with the demand for opiates / opioids and the pharmaceutical companies will always make sure the price is pretty hefty.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

swim knows that they are highly addictive but then again there just isnt anything that comes close to how good opioids actually are.

why cant they somehow come up with a alternative that does the same things but isnt as addictive?

This has been tried and tried and tried by all pharmaceutical companies, it is the "holy grail" of medicine to come up with an analgesic as effective as opiates but without the addictive properties. Heroin by Bayer is one example, this was first invented by Germans quite a long time ago and was at the time thought to be "less addictive" and in some cases stated as "non addictive" and was used to treat soldiers disease (Morphine addiction from the war).

Other opioids have come out since which were described as "less addictive" etc but none of it proved to be true.

Since any opioid model causes the brain to stop producing the needed endogenous chemical known as endomorphin, addiction will always be a problem.

Opioids sit on receptors meant for endomorphin and other endorphins and when those endorphin types cannot reach a receptor the brain notices that there is no need for the endorphin and stops producing it all together. This is true physical addiction, not a psychological need.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

people say that the best invention to man was Penicillin, but swim thinks actually the greatest discovery was opium.

One has to disagree here, much disease and infection was almost completely eradicated by penicillin and some things which are almost certainly lethal are only treatable with an antibiotic (which penicillin is).

While opiates can mask symptoms of common cold and other things like a hang over or severe pain it cannot cure the higher level things and never has been able to.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

apart from the obvious answer of its highly addictive, what are peoples thoughts on this, do you think opioids are a wonder drug, or more trouble then they are worth.

One does not think they are more trouble than they are worth, but merely thinks that they "have their place when used in the right manner".

One certainly would not call opioids or opiates a wonder drug because it has caused so many deaths, family misfortunes, lost loved ones, addicts littering the streets in some cases and too many crimes to count done in the name of getting that next fix (no matter if it is pill or injection). It has produced an evil empire of black market and high level government corruptibility. It has caused people to feel so much remorse and pain, mothers have let their babies die from hunger because they were too smacked off their heads to get off the couch. Babies are born addicted to opiates in some cases (how is it fair for a baby whom has no choice in the matter to be born an addict?). The fact is that the majority of "humans" find it hard to draw the line when it comes to opiates / opioids, knowing when and how much is appropriate even if they THINK they have it under control at the time. THIS is why doctors keep a tight reign on it, THIS is why governments keep a tight fist around it (although they have other reasons too).

On the whole SWIM feels that although opiates / opioids have their place in medical practice, they can also have the potential to damage SO much in someones life. SWIM is an opiate user, he loves his opiates, but he has always kept it in its place and it has been a hard thing for him to do. He watches others around him continue to hurt themselves and their families while he will give up for a few months and contain his habit to a degree. SWIM goes through the WD almost every year, it is just a part of life for him. He does this alone and puts the responsibility on no one but himself.

When SWIyou get the chance, take a good look at another addict. Does he or she seem to think that the world OWES them something? Are they just doing it to try and escape from something? Do they get angry for no reason or for when they cannot get money for their opiates? do they lash out at people during these times? do family members avoid them because of this? do other people whom used to be their friends avoid them because of this?

One thinks that the answer to all of these questions would probably be a big YES in most situations.

So to sum up, SWIM does not think that opiates / opioids are a wonder drug. SWIM thinks it is an extremely evil drug which "has its place in medicine when used appropriately" and he says all of this in spite of actually being a user himself.

Hope this has been of insight.

[bloodred1889]

thanks that was an interesting read.

swim has seen addicts, but mainly of heroin, even though thats from opium, it seems that heroin is the evil of opioids.
and swim would think morphine came second.

swim knows opioids dont cure the things she listed, but they do help people through them.
its juts a fact that morphine in a hospital situation does its job very well.
and swim knows herself and many people she knows would be someplace bad if they hadnt got the pain relief that opioids offer.

that said abuse and addiction are the dark side of them and swim sees your point, although they are great at what they are for, being addicted and going through WD is not a place you want to be.

swim thinks methadone is a nasty thing aswell.
swims friend was put onto methadone to get of heroin and really swims friend says methadone is more addictive then heroin.

it really will be a great day if someone descovers an opioid type drug without the potential for addiction.

swim heard that some people came up with an idea or a way to block the high of opioids on the brain, thus they would take away pain ect but people wouldnt abuse them because they wouldnt make you high.

seems an interesting idea.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

swim has seen addicts, but mainly of heroin, even though thats from opium, it seems that heroin is the evil of opioids.
and swim would think morphine came second.

Therein lies the problem, because of the way opiates interact in the brain with the said endomorphin receptors, no opiate is any better or worse than any other except for Heroin and that is only because it could be cut with god knows what. All opiate analgesics potentially b e as bad as each other because of this, because they all act on those receptors in the exact same way.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

swim thinks methadone is a nasty thing aswell.
swims friend was put onto methadone to get of heroin and really swims friend says methadone is more addictive then heroin.

Not more addictive but definitely AS addictive. The same mistake was made by Bayer when they released Heroin (hero's drug) as a cure for soldiers disease (morphine addiction). All that was done is one addiction was replaced by another. Methadone also has a greater potential to kill. here is an example:

Addict finally gets into the methadone clinic to be evaluated, this is where the problem starts. The doctor AND the patient plays a vital role in the dosage which the "patient" is treated with. A fair number of addicts think in the back of their head "oooh this might be my chance to get REALLY wasted for FREE" and usually says that his/her heroin habit is larger than what it is. The person then gets prescribed far more methadone that he/she actually needs and dies from an OD of it. This is common place, especially in the country in which SWIM lives. Also in the country where SWIM lives, those fatal methadone OD's go towards the Heroin OD statistics and not the methadone statistics as it should. In fact, through an independant study more people in SWIMs country die every year from methadone OD than Heroin OD.

This however does not deter from the fact that all opioids have the potential for abuse and any of them have the potential to kill. They ALL have an equal potential for abuse especially among the people in the know. "oooh oxycodone, that is supposed to be nicknamed 'hillbilly heroin' in the states, that must be some good shit". then its abused. Same with Vicodin, eminem helped that abuse potential along by rapping so much about it, otherwise a fair number of kids would have never even heard of it. This makes no one opiate any better than the other except perhaps in the instance of codeine with its ceiling effect.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

it really will be a great day if someone descovers an opioid type drug without the potential for addiction

This would be a GREAT thing, as one mentioned before it is the "holy grail" of medicine to find an analgesic as good as opiates which is void of abuse potential. This will NEVER happen with opiate class drugs though because of the way the action works. To bind to those receptors AND have a great analgesic effect, euphoria is inevitable and therefor just like a vampire from an anne rice novel lusting after blood, the person thinks "moooore"

Very sad but very true.
This has been a great discussion, thank SWIyou.

[bloodred1889]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

To bind to those receptors AND have a great analgesic effect, euphoria is inevitable and therefor just like a vampire from an anne rice novel lusting after blood, the person thinks "moooore"

very true

np, glad to hear your opinions.

[samgriffin]

got a wisdom out today didnt even get T3s... I just did a CWE on some percocets and bumped some hydromorph and its iiiniiiiiice

Reputation Comments on this post:

Off-topic, self-incriminating, pointless post.

[Tortoise]

Although Bloodred does bring up a very valid point. Everybody's always looking for a miracle "hangover cure", but we already have it - opiates! Not that Swim drinks much, ut when he's hung over 100mg of codeine always makes him feel so much better.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Although Bloodred does bring up a very valid point. Everybody's always looking for a miracle "hangover cure", but we already have it - opiates! Not that Swim drinks much, ut when he's hung over 100mg of codeine always makes him feel so much better.

10 Mg of Hydrocodone does the job for swim.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One has to disagree here, much disease and infection was almost completely eradicated by penicillin and some things which are almost certainly lethal are only treatable with an antibiotic (which penicillin is).

Opiates are the greatest discovery of man if you spend every waking hour of your life in pain.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

Opiates are the greatest discovery of man if you spend every waking hour of your life in pain.

SWIM does . . yet still disagrees . .

[bloodred1889]

swim spends alot of her life in pain.
but would say that if she really thinks about it, its a love hate relationship.

when your in pain, the relief you get from opioids is amazing and you love them, the warm fuzzy feeling it brings is euphoric and the world is great again, you can get on with your life, and be happy at the same time...

but..
as it comes time for the next dose and the effects wore off, this weird feeling comes over you, your not as happy, the pain returns and all you can think is, i need more, but this stuff is altimetly getting me addicted and the more i take, the more the withdrawels worsen and theres always that horrible thought in the back of your mind that oneday your doctor might take them off you, and what the hell would you do without them?

is this addiction, dependence? or just the fear of pain?
drug seeking behavior and not wanting to go back home in agony are the same.

as house Md said, i dont have a pain managment problme, i have a pain problem.

why shouldnt people in pain have this wonder drug that takes it all away?
then again when do you draw the line, and when does taking the pain away and just taking it to get the buzz become the same.

its just the way they are, we cant live with them, cant live without them.

many of the masters of this worls were opium addicts and spent the last years of there life under the influence, but they created beautifull and inspiring things when on opium and some couldnt do anything, write, sing, create, invent untill they got their fix.

the relationship between us and opioids is a very complex one.
almost as intence as the one between two people, but then again love is like a drug, and desiring somthing that brings euphoric feelings is as old as time.
its just humen.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

swim spends alot of her life in pain.
but would say that if she really thinks about it, its a love hate relationship.

One agrees whole heartedly. SWIM spends most waking hours in pain also.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

is this addiction, dependence? or just the fear of pain? drug seeking behavior and not wanting to go back home in agony are the same.

SWIM agrees again whole heartedly, So do medical encyclopedias. Dependence and addiction are two sides of the same coin.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

as house Md said, i dont have a pain management problem, i have a pain problem.

The amount of real doctors out there whom have a dependence on opiates is staggering.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

why shouldnt people in pain have this wonder drug that takes it all away?
then again when do you draw the line, and when does taking the pain away and just taking it to get the buzz become the same.

One thinks that people whom are in legitimate permanent pain should have this drug. Here lies the main problem, how do they sort out the people with real pain from those whom just want the drug? This is usually why permanent prescriptions for pain management with high level opioids are restricted to either cancer or terminal patients. Sure if you have a bad car accident or a bad workplace accident SWIyou may get on some good opiates for a while, but if the problem persists the doctors will still take those opiates away gradually and replace them with less addictive substances. A fair number of people cannot get past the initial WD pains for long enough to recognize if their original pain has started to heal yet or stopped all together. It is a hard thing to do but it can also be the most freeing thing a person can do . . . to leave the clutches of the vicious circle? A dream come true. "WILL I EVER HAVE THAT FEELING AGAIN" that is what is in the back of almost all post-addicts minds . . . they are more concerned about if they will ever have that euphoric feeling again than actually living their lives.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

its just the way they are, we cant live with them, cant live without them.

SWIyou can live without them, but it takes a strong mind. It is that "i cant live without it" mentality that keeps people comming back to opioids either legal or illegal . . . Once the apple is bitten . . .

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

many of the masters of this world were opium addicts and spent the last years of there life under the influence, but they created beautiful and inspiring things when on opium and some couldnt do anything, write, sing, create, invent until they got their fix.

totally agreed.

Originally Posted by bloodred1889

the relationship between us and opioids is a very complex one.
almost as intense as the one between two people, but then again love is like a drug, and desiring something that brings euphoric feelings is as old as time.
its just human.

Well love is just a series of endorphins and electric impulses, so yes, love IS actually a drug. When used correctly it can be a very long lasting drug . . .

great conversation . . .

[norcolepsy]

Hello!

First time poster here with little to say. Just wanted to mention that samgecko's initial reply was spot on. I don't think I've ever seen it so eloquently put. EXACTLY why they are, and should be deemed evil, IMHO.