Returning the "magic" - The Quest

[CircuitBoy]

SWIM is intrigued by SWIY's experiments:

One successful trial involves 6000mg St. John's Wort (SJW) for 2 months followed by at least a week of abstinence from SJW and and then 2 very powerful MDMA experiences spaced a week apart. MDMA had not been used for 6 months in the meantime. And some may say the time alone would have yielded those results, but SWIM knows his body and a year of MDMA abstinence without supplementation did not work at all for him.

The other success involved 100mg 5-htp/13 days, 500mg/4 days and then 250mg/every hour on day of MDMA. This experience was done relatively early in his MDMA experiences and was unable to subsequently work, probably due to downregulation by high doses of 5-HTP for a long time. But nonetheless this was by far the most powerful experience he has had to date.

The first experiment with St. John's wort is interesting, but SWIM wants to know how depleted the subject's serotonin was before the two months treatment with St. John's wort, as compared to before prior "untreated" rolls. SWIM has observed that two months off MDMA for a person not already too deeply depleted can be enough by itself to allow for a very amazing high after a two month break. Identical results may have been achieved even if St John's wort was not taken, so SWIM would like to see further research to verify whether the St John's wort treatment contributed at all to the observed effects.

One proposed experiement could be something along these lines: have a subject use a given dose of MDMA, then report the quality of the roll. Take two months off, and repeat for 6 months (a total of 4 "untreated" experiences two months apart). Then do the St. John's treatment as described and roll again after two months, again writing up the experience. Repeat 3 more times. The whole experiment would take 14 months year, and hopefully would factor out inconsistencies in serotonin depletion between rolls. Another idea would be to alternate between "untreated" and "treated" two month off periods through the year.

Another way to structure this might be to enter a serotonon depleted state by using MDMA every weekend for 7 days in a row, then take two months off, and then evaluate the subjective experience of a single roll. After that, take 6 months off, then repeat the entire experiment, but with a St. John's Wort "treatment" inside the two month off period. Compare the post-treatment roll with the untreated roll.

SWIM has also tried something along the lines of the second experiment, and observed similar results, in that it worked well once or twice and not very well after that. A problem is repeated MDMA use during these experiments contributes to deep long-term serotonin depletion during repeated attempts at the experiment, so the experiment may only "work" while not already deeply depleted, in which case the lack of an experiement may also have "worked".

SWIM has also observed that excessive 5HTP used by itself (without MDMA) eems to cause something that feels like serotonin receptor downgrading, in that after ceasing regular heavy daily use of 5HTP, without taking any additional MDMA, the subject feels a new serotonin depletion feeling that lasts several weeks. SWIM has also observed that some subjects experience severs stomach upset (and even vomiting) on doses of 5HTP exceeding 100mg in a single dose. One subject vomited an hour after taking 500mg, and another subject vomited an hour after taking 250mg.

While SWIM believes 5HTP can help the MDMA user feel more comfortable in the days following a roll, SWIM has not seen or hear any evidence or successful experiments where 5HTP made a difference long-term.

SWIM would like to see additional experiments done with St. John's Wort and "restoration of magic" and may try some experiements in that realm on her own.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by CircuitBoy

SWIM is intrigued by SWIY's experiments:

The first experiment with St. John's wort is interesting, but SWIM wants to know how depleted the subject's serotonin was before the two months treatment with St. John's wort, as compared to before prior "untreated" rolls. SWIM has observed that two months off MDMA for a person not already too deeply depleted can be enough by itself to allow for a very amazing high after a two month break. Identical results may have been achieved even if St John's wort was not taken, so SWIM would like to see further research to verify whether the St John's wort treatment contributed at all to the observed effects.

One proposed experiement could be something along these lines: have a subject use a given dose of MDMA, then report the quality of the roll. Take two months off, and repeat for 6 months (a total of 4 "untreated" experiences two months apart). Then do the St. John's treatment as described and roll again after two months, again writing up the experience. Repeat 3 more times. The whole experiment would take 14 months year, and hopefully would factor out inconsistencies in serotonin depletion between rolls. Another idea would be to alternate between "untreated" and "treated" two month off periods through the year.

Another way to structure this might be to enter a serotonon depleted state by using MDMA every weekend for 7 days in a row, then take two months off, and then evaluate the subjective experience of a single roll. After that, take 6 months off, then repeat the entire experiment, but with a St. John's Wort "treatment" inside the two month off period. Compare the post-treatment roll with the untreated roll.

SWIM has also tried something along the lines of the second experiment, and observed similar results, in that it worked well once or twice and not very well after that. A problem is repeated MDMA use during these experiments contributes to deep long-term serotonin depletion during repeated attempts at the experiment, so the experiment may only "work" while not already deeply depleted, in which case the lack of an experiement may also have "worked".

SWIM has also observed that excessive 5HTP used by itself (without MDMA) eems to cause something that feels like serotonin receptor downgrading, in that after ceasing regular heavy daily use of 5HTP, without taking any additional MDMA, the subject feels a new serotonin depletion feeling that lasts several weeks. SWIM has also observed that some subjects experience severs stomach upset (and even vomiting) on doses of 5HTP exceeding 100mg in a single dose. One subject vomited an hour after taking 500mg, and another subject vomited an hour after taking 250mg.

While SWIM believes 5HTP can help the MDMA user feel more comfortable in the days following a roll, SWIM has not seen or hear any evidence or successful experiments where 5HTP made a difference long-term.

SWIM would like to see additional experiments done with St. John's Wort and "restoration of magic" and may try some experiements in that realm on her own.

SWIM is certain that these results would not have happend without St. John's Wort (SJW), because abstinence from drugs for over a year alone did not help. SWIM was unable to feel anything, but negative on ecstasy for about 7 sessions over a 2 year period, until his SJW and piracetam experiments. SWIY mentioned that experiments such as the one with 5-HTP lead to long term depletion. That is not really the case, such experiments increase the rate of receptor downregulation, which is why it only works initially, but not necessarily subsequent times. The purpose of that experiment is to combat serotonin depletion and the whole purpose of SJW, piracetam, and cortisol-related experiments is to sensitize the serotonin system and reward pathways.

[chaos69]

so has anyone who has tried this SJW method noticed any difference to psychedelics action? swim noticed his mdma magic was lost after a particually heavy mushroom season and considering 4-ho-dmt is a 5-ht2 receptor agonist prehaps this was caused by this rather than coincidence. swim also now (many years later) notices a general higher tolerance to psychedelics than he used to have (although they do still work great)along with his still unforntunate complete loss of MDMA magic.

[Fantasian]

SWIF hasnt had any psychadelics since he tried the SJW experiment, but there is some experiences on the forum somewhere that i read that suggest cross tolerance between mushrooms and MDMA. Kyle might be able to shed some light on this he knows the serotonin system much better than myself. I would imagine that the upregulation caused by SJW would cause a differant experience with a hallucenogen but not nesseserily more or less intense, psychadelics bind to the serotonin receptors with a totally foreign molicule and hence the effects are commonly unpredictable.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good Info

[KyleM]

SWIM has noticed some effects on magic mushrooms after these experiences. Based on what SWIM knows, heavy mushroom use can cause some tolerance to the MDMA experience, but not necessarily the other way around because of what Fantasia said. It also seems that tolerance to hallucinogens, like LSD and 4-HO-DMT, is caused by reasons other than receptor downregulation. SWIM has noticed that the tiniest amount of mushrooms (1gram) one day, made him not be able to experience 7 grams the following night from a batch of very potent shrooms that worked well the following week. There's no way that the 1 gram caused massive downregulation of 5-HT2A. SWIM will post his experiences using mushrooms after St. John's Wort and piracetam in the mushroom forum so that this thread does not stray completely off topic.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great work as always, The input is always appreciated.

[Beta]

Swim has noticed that the best way to get the magic back from mdma is to take few mushrooms half an hour before mdma. It seems to completely reopen his mind to the magic of mdma.
In the other hand take mdma one day and take mushrooms the day after will decrease the mushrooms experience (mushrooms one day before mdma decrease mdma experience as well).

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good point
	Interesting point

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by marcan

Swim has noticed that the best way to get the magic back from mdma is to take few mushrooms half an hour before mdma. It seems to completely reopen his mind to the magic of mdma.
In the other hand take mdma one day and take mushrooms the day after will decrease the mushrooms experience (mushrooms one day before mdma decrease mdma experience as well).

That is a good point too as SWIM has also noticed that while on mushrooms he can somehow relive his past ecstasy experiences (the best ones) in his head and remember MDMA magic so well. It's like somehow the mushrooms allows access to subconscious thought and memory, with the strongest ecstasy magic being stored in subconscious memory rather than the more active memory.

[chaos69]

what level of hypericin and Hyperforin would you say is the daily target. i know you said 100mg/kg of SJW is the minimum however i noticed that the amount of SJW in each capsual does not seem to be proportional to the amount of hypericin and Hyperforin. it seams the ones with really high SJW levels in each capsual (~4000mg) don't have much more hypericin and Hyperforin than ones with only a fraction of the total SJW (~300mg).

[CircuitBoy]

One successful trial involves 6000mg St. John's Wort (SJW) for 2 months followed by at least a week of abstinence from SJW and and then 2 very powerful MDMA experiences spaced a week apart.

SWIM has read up on St. John's wort and has become fascinated by the possibility of using this approach to "repair" serotonin receptor downregulation by using a SJW regimen during the time-off between rolls to effectively re-upregulate receptors.

SWIM asked me to inquire as to why such a large dose of SJW is needed. SJW effective dose is generally considered to be in the range of 500-1100mg/day. SWIM, who weighs 90kg, tried 1800mg a day and found it to be uncomfortable (flat mood with some depersonalization). Is there any evidence of that "normal" doses of SJW in the 900mg/day range can effectively restore the magic? What dose was used and for how long? What was the rull lok after that regimen?

[Fantasian]

RE: High doses of SJW to circuitboy

When SWIF tried this experiment the depersonalisation while taking the SJW wasnt pleasent but the Significant Depression that followed for the 2 week period prior to rolling was very unpleasant and remains the reason SWIF would not repeat the experiment again. The method works without a doubt but for SWIF it simply wasnt worth it, beforeSWIY undertakes this make sure he is prepared for the negative effect of not having anything like enough serotonin to satify receptors. The depression wears off after the MDMA experience as that causes downregulation again but just make sure you are aware.

[KyleM]

SWIM has repeated the experiment multipulte times now. He has added a regimen of licorice root powder and panax ginseng to it, as well as piracetam. The St. John's Wort must be discontinued a minimum 7 days prior to MDMA, but as long as other supplements are continued, there should be no depression. They can be continued because they won't interfere with the MDMA experience. The combined experiment works about twice as well as just SJW alone and everytime SWIM has taken MDMA, he has rolled about twice as hard as the previous session. He is rapidly returning to his former ability to roll. It seems each time the experiment is done, it works much better. There must be a few month abstinence from MDMA after 2 sessions with it each time. The reason for 2 sessions is that the greatest benefits from these experiments is not seen until the second time one takes MDMA after attempting it. SWIM does not know why, that's just how it is. These experiments really might be the answer if done correctly.

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by KyleM

The St. John's Wort must be discontinued a minimum 7 days prior to MDMA, but as long as other supplements are continued, there should be no depression.

Im not convinced on this statement, according to what i understand you are creating a depressive state in order to roll this hard, as true MDMA will reverse this but there's no guarentee that balance will be maintained after the end of it all.

[medievil]

why have there to be a few months of abstinence?

[RaverHippie]

There is always a necessary period of abstinence following MDMA use to prevent forming a tolerance (4-6 weeks). This is greater when a tolerance already exists.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

There is always a necessary period of abstinence following MDMA use to prevent forming a tolerance (4-6 weeks). This is greater when a tolerance already exists.

Exactly, these experiments are not meant to be a replacement for abstinence, but to be used in conjunction with a period of abstinence. There is really nothing that will allow someone to use MDMA all the time with optimal effects, tolerance will catch up no matter what supplements are being taken. There just happens to be many people who have tried a long period of abstinence with MDMA and it either does not work or barely works to lower tolerance. These experiments give these type of people another option to use if they still desire to use the drug.

[medievil]

Originally Posted by KyleM

Exactly, these experiments are not meant to be a replacement for abstinence, but to be used in conjunction with a period of abstinence. There is really nothing that will allow someone to use MDMA all the time with optimal effects, tolerance will catch up no matter what supplements are being taken. There just happens to be many people who have tried a long period of abstinence with MDMA and it either does not work or barely works to lower tolerance. These experiments give these type of people another option to use if they still desire to use the drug.

well, seeing how abstinence is a big failure in returning the magic (you said it yourself), i really dont see any need for it

medievil added 16 Minutes and 38 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Fantasian

Im not convinced on this statement, according to what i understand you are creating a depressive state in order to roll this hard, as true MDMA will reverse this but there's no guarentee that balance will be maintained after the end of it all.

i'm skeptical this depressed state is neceserry to roll.. did kylem have the same issue after stopping sint johns worth?

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by medievil

well, seeing how abstinence is a big failure in returning the magic (you said it yourself), i really dont see any need for it?

Abstinance alone sometimes works and is not a big failure, but for some it will not. THe entire view of wanting to roll numerous times a month every month is coming at this from the totally wrong standpoint, before we embarked on these experiement we never were setting out to make weekly rolling possible, The brain is constantly trying to maintain balance and by rolling you are sending it out of balance significantly one way, we are merely looking at if you can knock it out of balance the other way so that the differance feels bigger.
Look at it like this: (my simplified explaination, there are many other variables but this makes it easier to understand)
You have 3 points
A ------------------------------------------------ B ---------------------------------------------- C
A normal regular joe who has never rolled is usually somewhere around B, he may be a little closer to one side than another because of his experiences of life making him a person with more or less serotonin receptors. Taking E sends him flying all the way to C during the experience but when he returns to normal he's quite a bit closer to C even when not rolling. Thats why alot of people tend to feel alot more emotionally stable after taking MDMA (post comedown obviously)

Now if someone abuses or uses MDMA often they get closer and closer to that C and the gap off amazement is smaller and smaller. So naturally we need something to get that gap larger again. Abstinance will slowly return one to B over a long period of time.

The whole idea behind SJW or whatever is to create a situation in which we are brought to A. A itself is totally horribley depressed, but by bringing ourselves toward A we can see how this can intensify the E experience, and again clearly the closer to A we become the more intense the experience, which is why many people who have suffered from depression and long term chronic low moods find so much more potential in MDMA.

Kylem had the same issue after ceasing st johns wort and also after suddenly stopping a long term piracetam regieme (however not as severe with piracetam) Because after whatever supplementation regieme the person will be much closer to A than what they are used to. The idea is then that they roll twice in a row relatively close together to bring them a WHOLE lot closer to C. and by the end of it they end up somewhere near B (in theory)

But as i described before, im not all that keen on throwing SWIF's brain chemistry in one direction to then haul it to another. It's amazing that this works but SWIF has had enough of messing with this at least for a while.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by Fantasian

Abstinance alone sometimes works and is not a big failure, but for some it will not. THe entire view of wanting to roll numerous times a month every month is coming at this from the totally wrong standpoint, before we embarked on these experiement we never were setting out to make weekly rolling possible, The brain is constantly trying to maintain balance and by rolling you are sending it out of balance significantly one way, we are merely looking at if you can knock it out of balance the other way so that the differance feels bigger.
Look at it like this: (my simplified explaination, there are many other variables but this makes it easier to understand)
You have 3 points
A ------------------------------------------------ B ---------------------------------------------- C
A normal regular joe who has never rolled is usually somewhere around B, he may be a little closer to one side than another because of his experiences of life making him a person with more or less serotonin receptors. Taking E sends him flying all the way to C during the experience but when he returns to normal he's quite a bit closer to C even when not rolling. Thats why alot of people tend to feel alot more emotionally stable after taking MDMA (post comedown obviously)

Now if someone abuses or uses MDMA often they get closer and closer to that C and the gap off amazement is smaller and smaller. So naturally we need something to get that gap larger again. Abstinance will slowly return one to B over a long period of time.

The whole idea behind SJW or whatever is to create a situation in which we are brought to A. A itself is totally horribley depressed, but by bringing ourselves toward A we can see how this can intensify the E experience, and again clearly the closer to A we become the more intense the experience, which is why many people who have suffered from depression and long term chronic low moods find so much more potential in MDMA.

Kylem had the same issue after ceasing st johns wort and also after suddenly stopping a long term piracetam regieme (however not as severe with piracetam) Because after whatever supplementation regieme the person will be much closer to A than what they are used to. The idea is then that they roll twice in a row relatively close together to bring them a WHOLE lot closer to C. and by the end of it they end up somewhere near B (in theory)

But as i described before, im not all that keen on throwing SWIF's brain chemistry in one direction to then haul it to another. It's amazing that this works but SWIF has had enough of messing with this at least for a while.

Well said..One point that must be added is that we are creating a state in which depression can exist (5-HT2A upregulation). Normally taking any supplements SWIM mentioned will not make one depressed while on it, but is still doing its work. Even stress hormones themselves can make someone feel great while the hormones are actively working in the brain, depression merely comes in its aftermath when the hormone levels go back to normal. So depression is actually a side effect of upregulating the receptors and then taking away whatever was upregulating them. Only St. John's Wort must be discontinued a week prior, so continuing piracetam use or another supplement should allow one to coast all the way down to the time E is taken. SWIM has been working the flaws out of this experiment the past few months and has come up with this. It does work.

[medievil]

but sint johns worth is there to prevent this tolerance

[medievil]

i have a question for you kylem and fantasion
can i post your experiences with this experiment and how to do the experiment on the bluelight forum? i'l post a link to this topc
maybe i can get more ppl to try this experiment

[Fantasian]

Im not sure that discussion is allowed that includes other forums of that type, but i personally have no problems with you reposting the experiments/posts so long as you give kyle or myself recognition at the end.

Fantasian added 3 Minutes and 13 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by KyleM

Well said..One point that must be added is that we are creating a state in which depression can exist (5-HT2A upregulation). Normally taking any supplements SWIM mentioned will not make one depressed while on it, but is still doing its work. Even stress hormones themselves can make someone feel great while the hormones are actively working in the brain, depression merely comes in its aftermath when the hormone levels go back to normal. So depression is actually a side effect of upregulating the receptors and then taking away whatever was upregulating them. Only St. John's Wort must be discontinued a week prior, so continuing piracetam use or another supplement should allow one to coast all the way down to the time E is taken. SWIM has been working the flaws out of this experiment the past few months and has come up with this. It does work.

Fair comment, the depression SWIF suffered from was on cesession of the supplement. But still Im not sure total equilibrium will occur afterward at least not for a while.

[SpinKing]

Got a few questions if anyone could help us out
Why does such a high dose of St John's have to be taken, does upregulation occur on regular doses? Does anyone have any idea how long it should be taken to become effective? (would taking it for 2 months then stopping allow modest upregulation)
Is it the absense of st johns and the depression which upregulates or would
SWIM feel signs of greater sensitivity during the period?
Where does Cortisol fit into all this?
Does it improve memory function supported by efficient serotonin use (e.g. Verbal recall)
Is it safe to take it up again if more sensitivity was wished to be felt.
The testee doesn't wish to take more mdma, but wishes greater serotonin body signal during day-to-day life, is generally quite good at dealing with discomfort of the depressive sort and presumes that a few bananas can be eaten if unpleasantness overwhelms him.
Although not strictly related to subject matter, related to st john's wort catalysed upregulation, would be grateful to here any responses.

[Fantasian]

Ive broken down your questions into numbers to make it slightly clearer i hope you dont mind.

Originally Posted by SpinKing

Got a few questions if anyone could help us out
1) Why does such a high dose of St John's have to be taken, does upregulation occur on regular doses?

2)Does anyone have any idea how long it should be taken to become effective? (would taking it for 2 months then stopping allow modest upregulation)

3)Is it the absense of st johns and the depression which upregulates or would SWIM feel signs of greater sensitivity during the period?

4)Where does Cortisol fit into all this?

5)Does it improve memory function supported by efficient serotonin use (e.g. Verbal recall)

6)Is it safe to take it up again if more sensitivity was wished to be felt.
The testee doesn't wish to take more mdma, but wishes greater serotonin body signal during day-to-day life, is generally quite good at dealing with discomfort of the depressive sort and presumes that a few bananas can be eaten if unpleasantness overwhelms him.

1) It is likely that upregulation does occur at lower doses and the differance will be seen over a longer period of time but in order to get a very intense experience on MDMA what we're trying to create is massive upregulation, obviously the amount of upregulation is directly propotionate to (within reason) the dose of SJW.

2) Again this is all pretty new stuff which people havnt tested all that much, in the doses we are talking about both SWIF and SWIkylem took those high doses for a period of around 2 months and experienced the desired effects. On lower doses you'd be looking at a much larger time period.

3) the answer to this question is both, the SJW itself causes upregulation very rapidly but then also the 2 weeks of depression that follow actually cause the upregulation to occur even further low serotonin = upregulaton. Its worth mentioning however SWIY wouldnt be able to roll while on SJW so there is no real way to avoid that refactory period. on SJW SWIF felt quite strange, not really up or down or sensative, just wierd, but thats probably due to the amount of neurotransmitters it effects ie not just serotonin.

4)Cortisol is a stress hormone produced by the body and causes upregulation of serotonin receptors. like SJW while on it SWIY will not feel depressed but once it returns to normal levels SWIY will feel sensative.

5) SWIF didnt notice any increased cognition and would strongly advise against it for this use, it simply isnt worth it, to trade happiness for improved cognition when nootropics like piracetam exist.

6) It sounds like your grossly underestimating this compounds ability, dont forget some of the experiments and research we're doing into this is very basic and we have no idea of alot of the effects, potentially doing this kind of thing could actually be quite harmful, in addition the depression you can suffer when doing this as ive mentioned previously can be quite intense. Try it and SWIY's own risk but be weary about it. Part of the advantage of taking a high dose MDMA roll after doing this is that it returns receptors to normal levels but not even that is certain. I cant imagine why one would want to create a truly depressed state and then maintain it. This is alot more serious than a couple of banana's, this is true horrible, demotivating, family destroying depression not just that feeling a bit down one day, which begs to question is the price worth the prize.

I hope ive answered some of your questions albeit some of them i really just dont know, it's quite a new area that not many people have explored, most scientific research is being done to do exactly the opposite of what we are, and even then it's finding it difficult. Even SSRI's arn't totally efficent.

If your struggling with the concept of regulation and receptor density a good way to view it (as a friend once told me) is that the amount of receptors you have is the same as your craving or desire for that feeling. So for example with serotonin the more receptors the more you want happiness but if you dont have an abundance of serotonin you feel meloncholy and upset but when you do get happy you feel absolutely amazing. A couple of posts up ive tried to explain the system the best i can.

[SpinKing]

thanks, sorry for not setting it out correctly, looking back on it it does look confusing. Swim takes piracetam and he supposes it's beginning to work in the verbal respect, Swim was hoping that sensitivity would improve this effect, assuming that serotonin had a greater importance due to ease of conversation on pills, but probably due to enhanced choline transmission. Didn't find pills were becoming too much weaker physically, but lost the communication improvement he'd originally experienced, struggling to recall words now still, probably due to a heavy blow he sustained when he walked into a pole one night off his head. (Silly Beggar)
Clarified the confusion I had about number of receptors , came to the conclusion, he can't have too many, as is pretty easily satisfied and reasonably happy. He'll take it lightly on the SJW from now on and follow up with period of abstinence. Time'll be the best healer for head wounds (he hopes).

[D-termine]

Brain Res. 1993 Dec 24;631(2):349-51.

Myo-inositol reduces serotonin (5-HT2) receptor induced homologous and heterologous desensitization.

Rahman S, Neuman RS.

Faculty of Medicine, Memorial University, St. John's, Nfld, Canada.

The effect of myo-inositol was examined on 5-HT2 receptor mediated facilitation of NMDA depolarization of rat neocortical neurons in vitro. Myo-inositol (1-10 mM) potentiated the 5-HT facilitation, the potentiation increasing linearly with log 5-HT concentration. Myo-inositol also eliminated 5-HT induced heterologous desensitization of muscarinic and alpha 1-adrenergic receptor mediated facilitation. Our findings suggest that 5-HT induced homologous and heterologous desensitization results in part from depleting phosphoinositide substrate.

Also for all the swimmers out there, give piracetam a whirl, SWIM never hallucinates without it. Well, perhaps he does, he just prefers to have all bases covered

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice data