Returning the "magic" - The Quest

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by Fantasian

Most recent update on the hypercium.

To my surprise it works, SWIF followed a 10 day intensive hypercium diet at 6000mg of st johns wort a day. 10 tablets in the morning and 10 tablets in the evening. Waited 2 weeks and then rolled on the saturday. The effects were extremely profound, the rushes were there and the extreme euphoria only generally associated with a users first couple of experience. The whole roll lasted for 5-6 hoursish with a 2 hour peak effects. SWIF found it extremely enjoyable. That said the 2 weeks prior to MDMA use after hypercium therapy were very strange SWIF felt somewhat depressed and down, all in all it wasnt a very enjoyable 2 weeks. From what SWIF understands this will rectify itself again as the serotonin receptors downregulate back to normal levels again.

IN summary does it work? Yes, is it worth it? Not really. for SWIF.

Glad to hear that SWIY had at least some success with it. SWIM recommended in another thread a minimum of 15 consecutive days of SJW for upregulation with even longer times preferred. What it does prove is that this does in fact work and will upregulate the receptors needed by MDMA, but it is a slow process requiring high doses for an extended period of time.

The serotonin receptors will only remain downregulated if serotonin levels remain high, if there was any depletion, upregulation will occur in a matter of weeks.

[Stiney]

I'd have to agree with KyleM, while I'm sure down-regulation of receptors and various other physiological changes do probably contribute to the loss of the magic, I feel confident that the loss of novelty, the act of getting use to the experince is certainly a contributer aswell. Like Kyle pointed out, the first time you fall in love is the most strongly felt for alot of people and if you fall in love easily like myself you will know that while its the same feeling the 15th time, it certainly is less intense the more frequently it occurs.

Alot of people will also tell you that the first time they shot heroin was by far the best and they never ever reached that height again, and that it became farther and farther from that original high the more frequently you use, even when tollerance is taken into consideration.
I used to go sky diving when i lived abroad and the first couple of times I did it were amazing, then i got to know the owner of the centre and when I started doing it frequently it was never the same again. The first time I saw someone get stabbed it was a very intense experience by the 10th time I barely batted an eyelid, I felt the same rush of adrenaline and the same fear but I was just desensitised to it, and it wasn't anywhere near as intense. Human beings will desensitise to all experiences positive or negative if they occur enough. Even if the down regulation was allowed to reverse itself it would never be the same as those first few times, you will still get the masive mood elevation, the euphoria, the physical effects, there is no reason why it can't be a wonderfull thing still but you will be desensitised to the over all experience to some degree, and if you keep trying to chase that feeling that the first few times brought you, will just be chasing a ghost forever and it will only distract you from enjoying the great experiences you could be having with this wonderful chemical.

Thats just my opinion, based on my own experiences and those of the majority of people I have discussed this subject with in the past. By all means do what you can to combat any suspected down-regulation of your serotonin receptors, but don't let it become the focus of your MDMA experiences to try and reach that place you once were, you'll just end up chasing your tail when you should be having fun.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nicely put

[KyleM]

That may have been someone else's argument. SWIM believe that novelty is less of an issue than many may think. Taking MDMA one time significantly alters brain chemistry, whereas most other drugs will not result in as much physical changes as MDMA will cause. SWIM believes that if someone restored brain chemistry to the exact same as his/her best MDMA experience, then a similar experience could be achieved. Novelty may be more linked to what someone does while rolling, whom one rolls with, and other similar factors, but it just does not explain the drug just not working anymore.

SWIM had outstanding experiences with MDMA, abused, and lost the effects. Using his methods, not only has he reached experiences like the first, he has had experiences that make his original best experiences seem like no magic was involved. SWIM also believes that most other people have not experienced their full potential with MDMA. That being the most receptor upregulation possible and the most possible binding to those receptors. This can be and has been achieved. There is a peak potential of rolling, a state of complete and true ecstasy, involving thousands of orgasms in the brain physically and true ecstasy psychologically, just to say the least. One can not have lost the novelty if they have not reached their maximum potential of MDMA.

[Stiney]

I see what you mean, I'll have to take your word for it in relation to not reaching the full potential of the experience. Like I said, it's just swims opinion, based on the first hand evidence they have aquired. For the record when you say "but it just does not explain the drug just not working anymore", that is a different definition of "losing the magic" than I am familiar with, "losing the magic" always meant to me, not the drug failing to work anymore (I wouldn't have thought that was posible) it's more that the all empowering height of euphoria reached in the early days is gone, and replaced with a lesser but still very worthwhile experience. I should also point out that swim did experience a loss of the magic but regained it through simple abstainence for a lenghty period of time, after which the original magical experience was experienced again. Whoever while this may have had alot to do with the full recovery of the serotonin system over time, it is still swims opinion that the novelty factor coming back into play was a massive part of it aswell. To go back to an earlier analogy, I went sky diving for the first time in 4 years several months ago and it was such a thrilling rewarding experience that it was very much on a par with the first times I did it, this was down solely to the over-exposure having warn off and the novelty of the experience returning, it had zero (virtually) to do with brain chemistry obviously, but the difference between the latter times when i was doing it frequently and this time was massive.

Again I'm not saying that treating an over protective serotonin system isn't worthwhile, I'm just saying that swim has no doubt what so ever that without the long break from taking MDMA that all the serotonin build up and normalisation of receptors in the world, while almost certainly improving the experience, would not have been able to produce the same experience as the act of allowing MDMA to become a special occasian novelty (not the right word to be using but the only one I can think of) experience again.

[KyleM]

The fact that the serotonin system is so altered with one use of MDMA means that the case of novelty is unproven. Unless one can prove that if a person had the identical chemistry in their brain each time they took MDMA and had identical pills, but just stopped enjoying rolling, then there is a case for loss of novelty.

When you first went skydiving, the enjoyment was definitely based alot on novelty. After so many times, you stop enjoying it as much, but that doesn't mean you're not still skydiving or that your body is not experiencing the same thing (free fall). I know that sounds like a rediculous statement, but apply it to MDMA. When people lose the magic it's because rolling itself is not happening or is weak and most definitely not because the person just doesn't like rolling anymore. When it comes to MDMA, enjoyment is the high! MDMA is chemically inducing the systems in the brain responsible for enjoyment; not enjoyment of something specific, but just enjoyment itself. The idea that one will stop enjoying intense enjoyment is rediculous. It is certain that there are physical changes/barriers preventing the inducement of these systems.

SWIM does not deny that loss of novelty to a high can occur with other drugs, but for the MDMA high, it's almost paradoxal. If someone still wants to believe that loss of novelty is responsible for loss of magic with MDMA, then by all means stop using MDMA and seek a new novelty.

[Stiney]

"The idea that one will stop enjoying intense enjoyment is rediculous", true but claiming that the same experience can not become less enjoyable if over experienced is also very ridiculas, interesting use of the word enjoyment there, going back to another previous analogy, I have been in love with girls where the same chemical processes would be occuring as times when I found love to be enjoyable but due to various circumstances certainly did not "enjoy" being in love with the girls. You are working on the assumption that the only thing to take into consideration is the actual serotonin effect on the brain, I'm of the opinion that the higher consciousness of thought outside of instinctual responses to a change in brain chemistry is an important factor.

Were just going around in circles here KyleM, theres no point in us repeating the same thing to each other over and over again. You're sceptical that the "novelty" factor is relevant in relation to the "loss of magic" and say your self that it can't be proven but that does not mean it can be disproven, I'm sceptical that it is not a contributing factor. Lets agree to disagree.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by Stiney

"The idea that one will stop enjoying intense enjoyment is rediculous", true but claiming that the same experience can not become less enjoyable if over experienced is also very ridiculas, interesting use of the word enjoyment there, going back to another previous analogy, I have been in love with girls where the same chemical processes would be occuring as times when I found love to be enjoyable but due to various circumstances certainly did not "enjoy" being in love with the girls. You are working on the assumption that the only thing to take into consideration is the actual serotonin effect on the brain, I'm of the opinion that the higher consciousness of thought outside of instinctual responses to a change in brain chemistry is an important factor.

Were just going around in circles here KyleM, theres no point in us repeating the same thing to each other over and over again. You're sceptical that the "novelty" factor is relevant in relation to the "loss of magic" and say your self that it can't be proven but that does not mean it can be disproven, I'm sceptical that it is not a contributing factor. Lets agree to disagree.

Yes we are just going in circles, but what should be agreed upon is the fact that what controls the natural release of neurotransmitters (perceptions and senses) is different from the chemical inducing of neurotransmitters.

Things to consider are natural psychological inhibitions that prevent one from loving like he/she used to prevent the chemical responses to love from being uninhibited. So it is certain that the identical chemical process as the first love is not happening. Novelty is controlled by neurotransmitters and loss of novelty undoubtedly caused by changes in the way those neurotransmitters respond to the same stimulus. MDMA will chemically induce love and diminish the inhibitions that try to prevent it. Loss of novelty is a psychological inhibition and the reason MDMA is so wonderful is that it eliminates inhibitions.

We really are in fact arguing the same point, yours is from a psychological viewpoint, mine is from a scientific viewpoint. Where it connects is that all psychology is controlled by physical scientific means. Psychology is not just invisible energy making us feel a certain way in response to something; it is the interaction of neurotransmitters in the brain. So loss of novelty can only exist because of changes in these interactions or a lack of the interactions taking place. So it could be said that changes in the serotonin system result in loss of novelty to MDMA, but wording it as loss of novelty leads to loss of magic is a little misleading. Reversing it to say that loss of magic leads to loss of novelty will make much more sense to the layman.

[podge]

Swims in agreement with Stiney. If novelty is a pre-destined chemical reaction then why does it effect MDMA use in particular ? Why does it not effect all drugs or life experiences to this extent ?

Its true that loss of novelty can effect any drug but i think theirs a mutual agreement among users that MDMA is renowned for this. Most drugs when given enough time between uses will yield a "full experience" or close to it - but on a mass scale people agree that this is not true with MDMA, as MDMA without the novelty is regarded by most as "lacking".

If novelty is a chemical reaction we all share in common then why does it effect somethings and not others ?

Novelty cant just be pinned down to a chemical reaction - one has to take the nature of the experience into consideration along with the science.

Congrats to Fantasian, glad to hear swiy had luck in restoring your receptors mate. Just be wary about testing this every 2 weeks - that last comedown didnt sound worth it.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by podge

Swims in agreement with Stiney. If novelty is a pre-destined chemical reaction then why does it effect MDMA use in particular ? Why does it not effect all drugs or life experiences to this extent ?

Its true that loss of novelty can effect any drug but i think theirs a mutual agreement among users that MDMA is renowned for this. Most drugs when given enough time between uses will yield a "full experience" or close to it - but on a mass scale people agree that this is not true with MDMA, as MDMA without the novelty is regarded by most as "lacking".

If novelty is a chemical reaction we all share in common then why does it effect somethings and not others ?

Novelty cant just be pinned down to a chemical reaction - one has to take the nature of the experience into consideration along with the science.

Congrats to Fantasian, glad to hear swiy had luck in restoring your receptors mate. Just be wary about testing this every 2 weeks - that last comedown didnt sound worth it.

ALL novelty is a chemical reaction as is all psychological thought and feeling, there is no exception to this. Lack of novelty to something is caused by an altered chemical reaction that differs from original or lack of one being induced at all.

SWIM thinks the confusion in this debate (other than SWIM's first sentence in this very post) is the understanding of what the MDMA high is in the first place. It is chemically inducing systems in the brain that result in loss of inhibition, pleasure, empathy, and excitement. Normally these emotions are all naturally caused by novel stimulus things which would mean losing novelty would prevent these emotions. SWIM does in fact clearly see why one would think this applies to MDMA and completeley understands all of your points of view. The difference with MDMA is there is no natural stimulus in order for novelty to cause these emotions, so what is causing the emotions for the first few good experiences? MDMA is bypassing the natural order of things and chemically inducing these emotions without regard to a novel stimulus that the brain would otherwise require for these emotions to be felt. The difference with another drug like marijuana, is that there is a distinct high and one's natural response to that high could be enjoyment, excitement and pleasure whereas the high of MDMA is the actual inducing of these, not just the body's response to a distinct high. Once someone understands this concept, he or she will realize that loss of novelty to rolling specifically is a scientific paradox.

SWIM does hope this makes sense to someone out there...but is always open for debate of course.

[Fantasian]

as said before both of the above are valid points and neither one can really be totally proved. On the topic of hypercium returning the intense feelings of euphoria it definately works and i think while now SWIF could say yeah i can deal with 2 weeks of pretty severe depression in order to 'reset' my serotonin pathways in order to roll harder actually going through that 2 weeks is much worse than one imagines. The extra anxiety and general feelings of being down can take over a little. For SWIF that makes the reset not really worth it, he'd rather stay happy and not get the more intense experience. It definately is a case of the pain before pleasure.

In terms of the experiement SWIF is going to roll again in 2 weeks to see whether in order to continue getting intense experiences one would have to use hypercium everytime or whether it would only have to be done every couple of months.

Please be aware that SWIF only did 10 days of therapy as a pilot and there is alot more potential in this method and 30 days is a much more suitable value for an extremely intense experience but it isnt something SWIF would like to experience due to the depression prior to the MDMA use.

Either way whatever happens SWIF will keep the thread informed

[Micklemouse]

KyleM, please give some evidence for the idea that all psychological responses have a neuro-chemical basis.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by Micklemouse

KyleM, please give some evidence for the idea that all psychological responses have a neuro-chemical basis.

http://asktom-naturally.com/neurotransmitters.html

http://allpsych.com/psychology101/ne...nsmitters.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions (scroll down to "Neurobiological theories of emotion")

Here's 3 to start. More to come later. Obviously SWIM won't have a source for each and every neurotransmitter and receptor/receptor subtype to show that for any given emotion there is a neurotransmitter/receptor action that is facilitating that emotion because there are so many emotions and neurotransmitters/receptors that it wouldn't be time feasible and SWIM doesn't care that much if people understand this. But these sources do agree with what SWIM is trying to say. There is scientific justification behind it.

[podge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion...ons_of_emotion

^^^
These are stated as theories - not facts. If you scroll to the area of definition you will see that there is no one set definition of emotion " The study of emotions is part of psychology, sociology, neuroscience, ethics, and metaphysics " ......neuroscience is only part of the bigger picture.

I dont see any part of the other two links which verifies that emotion can be explained as solely a neurochemical process.

[KyleM]

...a neurochemical response (or lack of one) beginning with a stimulus (or lack of one) that results in other neurochemical responses (or lack of) and ultimately displayed as... emotion (or negative/lack of emotion)!

KyleM is resigning from this thread as there no way to prove his point without spending hours finding sources and teaching natural human neurotransmission and how it relates to psychology and then more hours teaching neurotransmission as it relates to MDMA and how it compares/contrasts with other with other drugs and natural neurotransmission. SWIM has spent well over a thousand hours of reading into this stuff over the course of 3 years and can not begin to relocate most of his sources. KyleM requests his previous posts in this thread to be deleted by the moderator.

[Fantasian]

guys please, i know this tangent has gone quite far but it wasnt really the initial thread idea to be comparing ideas and theories of how emotion is or works while this clearly has an integral role in returning the magic i meant this more as an experimental thread to what people have tried and found worked for them.

[Fantasian]

Currently SWIF is undertaking another experiment to see if dramatically boosting serotonin levels plays a part in the MDMA experience. SWIF has used MDMA more than monthly for a period of 16 months with some time off.

SWIF plans to supplement with 5HTP for 16 days with a gradually increasing dose to a relatively heroic dose of 5HTP, WIll report once the experiment is done.

[Durd1e]

Originally Posted by Fantasian

Currently SWIF is undertaking another experiment to see if dramatically boosting serotonin levels plays a part in the MDMA experience. SWIF has used MDMA more than monthly for a period of 16 months with some time off.

SWIF plans to supplement with 5HTP for 16 days with a gradually increasing dose to a relatively heroic dose of 5HTP, WIll report once the experiment is done.

SWIM has tried this approach, taking 1 to 1.5g of 5-HTP for two weeks prior to dropping a pill but found the increase in effects to be palpable but not strong. Mainly it seemed to be a slight quantitative improvement instead of the qualitative one I was seeking. There was, however, absolutely no hangover or decrease in mental agility following the trip. Which was nice. Also on taking another the following day (in the name of science) to swim's surprise it worked - swim usually gets little or no effects from redosing the day after.

Conceivable more could be achieved with higher doses but swim is not really willing to do that...he felt as if his teeth were vibrating during the weeks of 5-htp ingestion.

[notts.pirate]

i havent read this thread thorughly but it seems to SWIM the only reason SWIY getting 'the magic' back is by making SWIY depressed for a period before SWIY actually take the drug

SWIM hasnt lost the magic as such but SWIM doesnt get the same experiences as when SWIM first took the drug, however SWIM has briliant times still and puts 'losing the magic' due to cheaply produced poor quality little round things

[RaverHippie]

i havent read this thread thorughly but it seems to SWIM the only reason SWIY getting 'the magic' back is by making SWIY depressed for a period before SWIY actually take the drug

SWIM hasnt lost the magic as such but SWIM doesnt get the same experiences as when SWIM first took the drug, however SWIM has briliant times still and puts 'losing the magic' due to cheaply produced poor quality little round things

Actually, depression wouldn't aid in getting the magic back. Depression or stress down-regulates serotonin receptors and so the roll is diminished.

SWIM has yet to experience any sign of fading magic but I would post the question to SWIY, how many pills does it take for SWIY to get buzzed?

for SWIM it still only takes one pill to have a good time. Any answer besides one pill would show SWIM pretty solid evidence of "losing the magic" occurring.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

Actually, depression wouldn't aid in getting the magic back. Depression or stress down-regulates serotonin receptors and so the roll is diminished.

SWIM has yet to experience any sign of fading magic but I would post the question to SWIY, how many pills does it take for SWIY to get buzzed?

for SWIM it still only takes one pill to have a good time. Any answer besides one pill would show SWIM pretty solid evidence of "losing the magic" occurring.

Actually that's not accurate. People with depression normally have upregulated serotonin receptors in the cortex/prefrontal cortex and downregulated ones in the hippocampus. MDMA needs the receptors in the cortex for it's effects. Not all serotonin receptors were created equal and not all regions in the brain were either. The identical serotonin receptor in 2 different parts of the brain will have different effects and 2 different receptors will have different effects even if located in the same part of the brain. Don't just think of it as simple as upregulation is good, downregulation is bad for experiencing MDMA. Upregulation of the wrong serotonin receptor subtypes is not going to help the MDMA experience at all.

And saying that one has lost the magic if he/she needs more than one pill is also misleading. Pills very in strength by wide margins and other factors such as weight and gender need to be considered. Natural tolerance is another factor as well because not everyone has the correct brain chemistry to have a great MDMA experience. SWIM's wife has unsuccessfully tried MDMA about 6 times now averaging 2-3 pills per session and still only gets minimal to no effects. These same pills knocked SWIM on his ass. He has done ecstasy over 20 times and she only weighs 115 pounds. It would be inaccurate to say she has lost the magic if she never had it to lose in the first place even if she is taking 3 pills in one night. So just because SWIY only needs one pill to roll doesn't mean there is anything wrong with people who require more.

[RaverHippie]

thanks for the correction on the first part,

On the second part SWIM was just trying to make the point that SWIM has never needed to up his dose of pills to achieve a similar state or better state as his first roll.

[notts.pirate]

on average SWIM is taking 4-5 in a night however the buzz isnt lasting long enough and its not uncommon for SWIM to 'lose' 10-20 in a weekend

[RaverHippie]

see 1-2 pills will last SWIM from 10pm-8am the next morning easily

[notts.pirate]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

see 1-2 pills will last SWIM from 10pm-8am the next morning easily

but how long has SWIY been taking pills ?? SWIMs a veteran

dont get me wrong SWIM still enjoys taking pills and other chemicals (SWIM wouldnt be doing it otherwise) and still occasionally gets times when its like the first time

[RaverHippie]

SWIM is very experienced with pills as well.