Returning the "magic" - The Quest

[Fantasian]

For a long time experienced MDMA and ecstasy users have been plagued with the problem of the loss of magic. Which has brought along numerous arguements including that of common use is bad and the use of MDMA should be saved for special occasions among others. Losing the magic being defined as losing those amazing rushes, that massive empathy, that something special that really makes MDMA in this authors oppinion one of the most special drugs of all time.

It's definately true that limiting use can slow down this loss of magic and hopefully allow numerous amazing rolls to come but wouldnt it be amazing if users throughout the world could find a way to reverse the loss and regain the magic. I know to a large degree im preaching to the converted with this, and im also aware that most people will argue that if there was an easy way it would have been done and copied many times.

But i figured that seeing as ive picked up on various things in and out of the forum that shows people are ever continuing the quest to bring back the magic or at least to try and find some way to reverse the process it should have it's own thread.

I've tried to summarise everything that i know so far in the below post but if anyone feels there is anything to add please state it and ill add it below.

Finally, many of the experiments in this area involve taking heroic dosages of things not normally meant to be taken in these quantities. Attempting in some of these methods may cause unknown risks or side effects to ones health.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Very interesting information given, much appreciated
	Interesting concept, look forward to 5 htp results
	great topic
	Damn good thread. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this.
	Great idea

[Fantasian]

What we think we know so far

What is loss of magic?

There is definately a split argument here, some feel that lack of serotonin plays a key issue in the loss of magic and lack of positive effects others believe it is to do with receptor down regulation. Most likely it is a combination of the two. It's also worth noting that Oxytocin (not Oxycontin!) is a hormone involved in attatchment and is linked to feelings of empathy in love and is released in large quantaties during the MDMA experience, this could indicate part of the 'magic' and it probably has it's own receptors and own systems of release but we are still as of yet unable to harness or even understand it's actions properly so for the moment i negate to consider trying to manipulate it.

The lack of serotonin suggests that if one was to replenish this one could roll just like the first again every time, this is indeed unfortunately not true as people initially can roll two days consectutively if they are naieve to the drug and also with supplementation of high amounts of 5-HTP which replenishes the neurotransmitter this does not bring back the magic.

Therefore it it more likely that the loss of magic is more of a result of receptor down regulation. Easily defined in the sense that if the receptors are bombarded with serotonin the downregulate to cope with the amounts, this leaves the user less able to roll after each bombardment especially if the receptors arnt given any downtime to upregulate again. this supports the idea that if someone uses only occasionally that they are able to upregulate to some degree before the next roll. This downregulation that takes place is thought to take place in the frontal cortex of the brain which controls many emotions and similar feelings that is thought to cause the euphoria associated with MDMA.

[EDIT] - There is also a group of people who believe loss of magic relates to a loss of novelty from overuse, some translate this scientifically to mean a receptor change and others believe its more cognative. Either way "loss of novelty" isnt something we can really attempt to change except through abstinance so it's not discussed in any more detail here.

How to upregulate my receptors

It is more than just a conincidence that people who have suffered from post traumatic depression or heavy stresses in there life find much more euphoria and pleasure from MDMA. speaking from SWIF's experience MDMA for him was absolutely life changing with a +4 on the shuglin scale while others of his friends found the experience enjoyable but nothing in comparison. Once again I think receptors play a part here, ever heard of "yeah but after they got through it, it made them stronger." Im bending arguments a little to suit me here but i personally believe that part of the reason people recover so much stronger from psychological trauma is that alot of their receptors upregulate during their time of stress and therefore leave them enjoying life more than before they had the trauma.
This means that we think stress and problems cause upregulation, and with a little research and help from some other DF members we came up with the following.
These will result in 5-HT2A up-regulation in the cortex:

-Glucocorticoids (cortisol, corticosterone, prednisone, prednisolone, betamethasone, dexamethasone)
-Anything that stimulates glucocorticoid release (piracetam, alcohol, stress, drug/alcohol withdrawl)
-Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH)/cosyntropin (Synthetic ACTH) (Stimulates glucocorticoid release)
-Estrogen/estradiol
-MDL 11,939 & SR 46349B/eplivanserin (Only 2 antagonists that cause up-regulation, but will interfere with serotonin binding while taking them)
-Hypericum (St. John's Wort)
-Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT)
-Sustained serotonin depletion in cortex

These will result in 5-HT2A down-regulation in cortex:
-5-HT2A agonists (serotonin, hallucinogens), antagonists (except the 2 listed above) and pretty much anything else that binds to the receptor)
-5-HTP/L-Tryptophan
-Antidepressants (SSRIs, MAOIs, Tricyclic, 5-HT releasers)
-Cocaine

Now that said that doesnt really help us that much, the typical user doesnt really want to stimulate glucocorticoid release and this basically includes heavy unavoidable stress similar to that of Post traumatic stress disorder. Also Ive never really met anyone who wants to undergo Electroconvulsive Therapy in a hurry. While sustained serotonin depletion can also cause upregulation, most people that i know would rather not go through any period of their life with sustained low serotonin, after all comedowns are bad enough right?

Which left us with Hypericum (St. John's Wort), there are studies showing that high doses of st johns wort causes significant upregulation of 5HT receptors in the frontal cortex and therefore would hopefully return the long missed magic. However dosages in normal ranges dont give the desired effects therefore one would be his or her own test subject to this, and like any herb or drug St johns wort has it's own side effects.

-------------------------------------------

If anySWIM undergoes this kind of experiment (please do so at SWIYs own risk) but post any results below. SWIF is undergoing one similar currently.

(a special thanks to KyleM, Broshious, medievil and others so far for their help and input)

Reputation Comments on this post:

A commendable endevour, and a good idea for a thread. Just hope you keep an open mind to all posibilities in regards to ...

[jaffacake]

The trouble is not everyone experiences a loss of magic. If it was anything to do with "receptors downgrading" then every user would inevitably lose the magic.

I believe the "Loss of magic" is simply down to taking it too often and becoming used to the effects.

[desperado]

Originally Posted by jaffacake

The trouble is not everyone experiences a loss of magic. If it was anything to do with "receptors downgrading" then every user would inevitably lose the magic.

I believe the "Loss of magic" is simply down to taking it too often and becoming used to the effects.

vouch this

[metaphoria]

In your first post you mentioned that Piracetam helped with 5-HT2A up-regulation in the cortex.

Originally Posted by Fantasian

-Anything that stimulates glucocorticoid release (piracetam, alcohol, stress, drug/alcohol withdrawl)

I've been taking Piracetam for a while because of the apparent reversal of tolerance to MDMA...I have noticed a bit of a difference, but is that the reason it seems to work? Would you be able to use Piracetam in place of SJW?

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by metaphoria

In your first post you mentioned that Piracetam helped with 5-HT2A up-regulation in the cortex.
I've been taking Piracetam for a while because of the apparent reversal of tolerance to MDMA...I have noticed a bit of a difference, but is that the reason it seems to work? Would you be able to use Piracetam in place of SJW?

piracetam does work however it's definately dose dependant,and is much less effective than SJW. Also the same rules apply so as receptors are upregulated depression type feelings will ensue with a rise in anxeity. SWIF noticed a minor improvment of MDMA kind of effects with a month or two of piracetam dosage at 1 gram a day however nothing like as effective as the SJW.

Thats not to say however that piracetam isnt as effective if taken in the heroic dosages like the SJW. If SWIY gets some experience with higher dosages of piracetam please post the report so I can include it and further this research.

As a side note SWIF found with higher dosages of piracetam anxiety became an issue but when consulting others, many said they had no problem so it may be subjective.

[KyleM]

SWIM doesn't believe the argument that claims "loss of novelty" or being "used the the effects". MDMA induces the system in SWIY's brain that controls enjoyment, happiness, and love. Loss of novelty from something would most likely result in something from that occurs often enough that it no longer can stimulate this system (serotonin, oxytocin). By MDMA directly inducing this system, SWIM believes one can never experience loss of novelty with MDMA and believes that all tolerance is related to physical means. Recent research has indicated that the most probable causes are: cortical serotonin depletion for some individuals and 5-HT2A downregulation for other individuals. These same individuals (5-HT2A downregulated) may experience serotonin reuptake transporter downregulation as well due too excessive MDMA or serotonin binding to the transporters. This would make it so that MDMA could not release serotonin itself in order to roll. These issues can be fixed with serotonin precursors for low serotonin(5-HTP), some of the upregulating techniques previously mentioned, or increase serotonin reuptake transporters by limiting MDMA or serotonin binding to them (small MDMA doses, limited MDMA use, lower synaptic serotonin). Taking high doses just causes massive depletion and/or SERT/receptor downregulation which is difficult to reverse.

Most people's loss of magic is most likely due to a combination of downregulated 5-HT2A receptors and downregulated serotonin reuptake transporters. The smaller percentage (the ones with previous depression, who have naturally lower serotonin and high numbers of 5-HT2A receptors and serotonin reuptake transporters) probably lost magic due to low serotonin and in this case 5-HTP is essential. There can not be a combination of both (depleted serotonin and 5-HT2A downregulation) at least not for very long because low serotonin will cause upregulation by itself so downregulation is really not much of a concern. It is really difficult for "normal" people to achieve this state because having higher serotonin levels naturally will make it difficult to chemically release serotonin in the first place because reuptake transporters are less available, so even with upregulators such as SJW, it still may be difficult to release serotonin with MDMA.

SWIF mentioned that most people will prefere not to have to maintain low serotonin levels and high stress levels, but this is absolutely essential to maximize MDMA's effects. It takes a bit of sacrifice of SWIY's own psychological well-being, but the rewards are well worth it. Some of us (SWIM) were initially unlucky in life psychologically and MDMA will reward one for enduring this. The others who were so lucky in life not to have significant stress and depression will not have earned the ability to fully experience MDMA. It's basically a right of passage. St. John's Wort will combat one aspect of tolerance, but ultimately one will need to maintain lower serotonin levels, endure chronic, unavoidable stress in order for their brain to build the gateway. Most people will have trouble achieving this even with MDMA due to the rate-limiting factor (SERT) and may need to find a back-door approach to achieve a low serotonin state, such as tryptophan depletion, low tryptophan diet or tryptophan hydroxylase inhibition.

This stuff is not for the newbie or casual drug user by any means and most people will not understand these concepts or choose to believe them for that matter, but MDMA magic is really not such a mystery as most believe. MDMA is only a tool used to release serotonin, the rest is completely dependent on proper brain chemistry.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Very knowledgable, learned alot!
	Informative post

[jaffacake]

Loss of novelty from something would most likely result in something from that occurs often enough that it no longer can stimulate this system (serotonin, oxytocin). By MDMA directly inducing this system, SWIM believes one can never experience loss of novelty with MDMA and believes that all tolerance is related to physical means.

But there comes a point where you are so familiar with the effects that even if MDMA does exactly the same thing to your brain chemistry as it did the first time you arn't as overwhelmed as you were the first time.

SWIF mentioned that most people will prefere not to have to maintain low serotonin levels and high stress levels

This theory depends on whether you believe the serotonin theory of depression as propragated by the pharma corporations to sell us SSRI drugs. As one researcher put it "The serotonin theory of depression has as much evidence to support it as the masturbation theory of insanity".

[KyleM]

There is conclusive evidence that depression will result in changes in the serotonin system and that certain changes in serotonin system make one more likely to be depressed (the changes mentioned before). Is it the only cause? Probably not, but the evidence still stands. Stress and depression do cause certain changes and MDMA capitalizes on those changes. Plus there will always be people who choose to ignore obvious scientific data in favor of more irrational beliefs (religious, etc.) and that's fine.

As for the novelty issue, no one is fully experiencing MDMA's full potential each time they use it, it's impossible. Most likely one is not even close to maximizing effects. The overwhelming aspect has to do with expectations and previous experiences with the drug and the fact that SWIY's chemistry won't allow it. Abuse will cause chemistry changes in the brain that will not allow for subsequent overwhelming experiences unless one fixes the problem. As previously mentioned, MDMA is a tool, the rest is SWIY.

Saying one can lose novelty to rolling is like saying someone can lose the novelty to sex, love and happiness altogether. It is possible to lose novelty to loving a certain person or thing, having sex with a certain individual, or becoming happy due to something specific. But to say one can actually lose novelty to the emotions and pleasures themselves is probably not true. When on MDMA, SWIY is not enjoying a drug itself in order to lose novelty to, rather SWIY is inducing happiness, love and pleasure itself. If SWIY is not enjoying as much as he/she used to, then there is most likely a physical change in the brain preventing that.

[jaffacake]

Originally Posted by KyleM

There is conclusive evidence that depression will result in changes in the serotonin system and that certain changes in serotonin system make one more likely to be depressed (the changes mentioned before).

Content removed pending reference.

[Paracelsus]

Let's not turn this thread into a debate about the serotonin theory of depression. Thank you.

[jaffacake]

But to say one can actually lose novelty to the emotions and pleasures themselves is probably not true.

I'm not sure, I think lots of people would agree that the first time they fell in love was more intense than the tenth time.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Never thought about it that way but true!

[KyleM]

But you missed my point. By chemically inducing the systems in the brain that control happiness, love and pleasure, you are in fact bypassing novelty itself as novelty is involved in the natural ways neurotransmitters are released in the first place. Once you lose the novelty to something specific, your brain may not stimulate the neurotransmitters to be released that control enjoyment, etc. An example would be falling in love with somene. The brain will stimulate its own oxytocin onto its receptors in order to feel feelings of love. When one loses novelty of this person, the brain will slow the stimulation of the oxytocin system naturally. And the next person you fall in love with, the process starts over. I believe it begins with perception and I also believe that serotonin is responsible for one's perception of reality. When one perceives something positive, serotonin is probably released and oxytocin is released secondary to that. We can become accustomed and lose novelty to specific perceptions. But I still stand by my statement that when chemically inducing these systems, you are bypassing all of this. It's like SWIY's is forced to be happy and love and lose inhibitions on MDMA if the chemistry is correct.

[jaffacake]

And the next person you fall in love with, the process starts over

True, but the point is the brain has already experienced the process once by now so the second time is unlikely to be as overwhelming. If you are put in a boxing ring with Mike Tyson your brain will release chemicals that make you feel scared and you will be overwhelmed by fear. If you are put in a rink with Mike Tyson every day for a year by the 300th day you will feel less fear no matter what chemicals your brain releases.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by jaffacake

And the next person you fall in love with, the process starts over

True, but the point is the brain has already experienced the process once by now so the second time is unlikely to be as overwhelming. If you are put in a boxing ring with Mike Tyson your brain will release chemicals that make you feel scared and you will be overwhelmed by fear. If you are put in a rink with Mike Tyson every day for a year by the 300th day you will feel less fear no matter what chemicals your brain releases.

But to say one can lose the sense of fear altogether is another story and is not probable, that's the point I'm trying to make. By the 300th day, the brain would not perceive the fear the same way and probably not release the chemicals in the first place or at least nearly the same amounts as the first time. If you chemically induced the area in your brain that causes fear, you could not lose novelty to fear itself. Same applies with MDMA.

[podge]

Swim thinks losing the magic is a genuine occurance which probably cant be remedied by neurotransmitter replenishment alone, swim never abused and still "lost the magic", he has used other drugs more than MDMA and with most he still hasnt lost what made them special.

Loss of novelty is exactly what it says - loss of novelty , unless someone suffers from amnesia the memory of previous uses wont just go away, i dont think even amnesia would eliminate the familiararity of the experience.

But perhaps loss of "magic" and "novelty" are two different things which together can spoil MDMA ? Swim believes that once the novelty is gone....its gone. But perhaps the magic can be recaptured if they are indeed two seperate problems.

Eitherway......Best of luck to the people involved in this thread , its a worthy cause.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by podge

Swim thinks losing the magic is a genuine occurance which probably cant be remedied by neurotransmitter replenishment alone, swim never abused and still "lost the magic", he has used other drugs more than MDMA and with most he still hasnt lost what made them special.

Loss of novelty is exactly what it says - loss of novelty , unless someone suffers from amnesia the memory of previous uses wont just go away, i dont think even amnesia would eliminate the familiararity of the experience.

But perhaps loss of "magic" and "novelty" are two different things which together can spoil MDMA ? Swim believes that once the novelty is gone....its gone. But perhaps the magic can be recaptured if they are indeed two seperate problems.

Eitherway......Best of luck to the people involved in this thread , its a worthy cause.

It would be one thing if one was still feeling the effects strongly and just not enjoying them the same, but people losing MDMA magic are just not feeling the positive effects the way they should be felt at all. SWIM smokes marijuana every once in a while, the high is always extrememly intense, but does he enjoy it the same as he did in high school? Not as much for sure, but that doesn't mean his experiences aren't extremely intense. Loss of novelty would be a good reason for this senario. When people stop enjoying MDMA, it's because the drug is not working, not because they are used to the effects. Otherwise SWIY would roll really hard after long abstinence, but just not enjoy rolling anymore.

MDMA tolerance is probably the hardest drug to effectively lose tolerance to and the easiest to become tolerant to. The serotonin system itself is much more delicate. Serotonin replenishes slower than any other neurotransmitter, the serotonin receptors that allow one to roll are the most difficult to upregulate as they resist upregulation to methods that would normally easily upregulate another receptor. The reuptake transporters could take years of abstinence to upregulate to pre-MDMA levels. This is just the serotonin aspect of MDMA, not including the roles of dopamine in the reward center and oxytocin in the hypothalamus. If one of these systems is not up to par, then the whole experience can be diminished or just not good at all. The most difficult thing is to determine which system(s) are not up to par and how to go about fixing them. SWIY could have receptor-based tolerance, try serotonin replenishment methods (5-HTP) and make receptor tolerance worse. Or SWIY could have low cortical serotonin-based tolerance, try upregulation techniques and be completely wasting time because upregulation techniques won't replenish serotonin and is downregulation is not a concern if one is serotonin-depleted. Everyone's tolerance will be somewhat different and need a uniques regimen to combat it.

It helps if one researches the serotonin system and it's receptors and not just research MDMA itself. Forget MDMA for now, learn the serotonin system, how it works, how it does not work and how it interacts with other systems. Then learn and apply MDMA to that knowledge and it makes much more sense. This is not meant to be demeaning to anyone, but SWIM has been extremely successful with MDMA using this knowledge.

[podge]

Originally Posted by KyleM

It would be one thing if one was still feeling the effects strongly and just not enjoying them the same, but people losing MDMA magic are just not feeling the positive effects the way they should be felt at all. SWIM smokes marijuana every once in a while, the high is always extrememly intense, but does he enjoy it the same as he did in high school? Not as much for sure, but that doesn't mean his experiences aren't extremely intense.

Swim is the opposite. Swim has learned to appreciate Marijuana the more he uses it. Its not a question of intensity for swim - stronger doesnt necessarily mean better for swim anymore.

Swim thinks discussing the "magic" is roaming into the territory of subjective experience more so than chemical reactions.....they can both be discussed but swim doesnt think they are necessarily one and same.

Swim can still feel the effects of MDMA as strong as he used to, just that mind state and physical euphoria seems quite predictable to swim. And like swim said, he never used to abuse MDMA. Swim just began to find MDMA an experience which became too "artificial" for his tastes.

Psychedelics, amphetamines, deliriants, depressants, stimulants , opiates etc........despite chemical reactions which are generally the same in people the physical and mental effects will vary, sometimes not by much, sometimes by a lot .....what is considered "euphoria" for one might not be so special for someone else, what some call "insanity" others call enlightment, what some poeple call poison is a way to have fun for others.

Swim has no reason to doubt swiys knowledge of the serotonin system, but i think swiy will agree, everyones physiology differs which already makes it impossible to know exactly how everybody will react to a given chemical - subjective experience cannot be measured accuratly by current scientific means IMO.

Reputation Comments on this post:

some good points

[swatch420]

Losing the "sense of wonder" can and will happen to anything in life. Kids are full of a sense of wonder, Xtc helps bring that back, but as with anything, doing it to much or getting use to the "magic" itself will undoubtedly cause it to go away.

Try to find the wonder in life and in doing so, when returning to Xtc the magic will reappear, in time of course.

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by jaffacake

And the next person you fall in love with, the process starts over

True, but the point is the brain has already experienced the process once by now so the second time is unlikely to be as overwhelming. If you are put in a boxing ring with Mike Tyson your brain will release chemicals that make you feel scared and you will be overwhelmed by fear. If you are put in a rink with Mike Tyson every day for a year by the 300th day you will feel less fear no matter what chemicals your brain releases.

But fear itself is a chemical release!!! The reason you feel less fear is because you've gotten accustomed to the rush of adrenaline and other chemical releases associated with facing a a dangerous threat! It works in exactly the opposite way, after that 300th day if you dont fight him for another 5 years, the first time you step back in with him after 5 years you're just as scared as the first time (or at least alot more scared than the 300th) [simplistically]

Originally Posted by swatch420

Losing the "sense of wonder" can and will happen to anything in life. Kids are full of a sense of wonder, Xtc helps bring that back, but as with anything, doing it to much or getting use to the "magic" itself will undoubtedly cause it to go away.

Try to find the wonder in life and in doing so, when returning to Xtc the magic will reappear, in time of course.

agreed but Im with KyleM in the fact that Novelty is lost when something is repeated over and over but there is no denying the effects of MDMA are massively dimished with even sensible use, and also people who's serotonin system has been primed (ie post traumatic depression) have a significantly more intense life changing experience. Loss of novelty does play a part but the much larger problem in this is chemical and scientific.

Maybe i should have reworded the original question to say intensity and euphoric properties rather than "magic".

I think one of the problems here is that we're both arguing the same point, but in an emotional or scientific way.

[KyleM]

Originally Posted by Fantasian

I think one of the problems here is that we're both arguing the same point, but in an emotional or scientific way.

True, but if people would understand that every single emotion felt by a human, whether it's anger, fear, love, enjoyment, etc. is controlled by some physical system(s) in the brain. If those emotions are not being felt it's because the physical chemical process is not currently happening or has changed in some physical way making one not sensitive to those chemicals or the system involved, preventing the emotion from being displayed.

[Lettish]

Several of Swim's friends have said Swiy only get about half a dozen really amazing, memorable, magic ecstasy experiences in Swiy lifetime. One even reported waiting two years just to be disappointed that it didn't come back. Maybe it never returns.

[RaverHippie]

To guide this discussion back on topic-

Fantasian- are you still planning on attempting the SJW therapy that was outlined successfully by on DF member already? I remember reading about your interest. One other therapy that may have implications is Ibogaine. Everything I've read so far points that it resets all your receptors. I've only read reports for combatting heroin/cocaine/etc addiction but to me it seems like it could work for SWIY's purposes.

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

To guide this discussion back on topic-

Fantasian- are you still planning on attempting the SJW therapy that was outlined successfully by on DF member already? I remember reading about your interest. One other therapy that may have implications is Ibogaine. Everything I've read so far points that it resets all your receptors. I've only read reports for combatting heroin/cocaine/etc addiction but to me it seems like it could work for SWIY's purposes.

SWIF is Currently undergoing tje SJW therapy and will post results and soon as they are available.

Ibogaine has always been something of interest for this kind of thing, however i heard the experience itself can be quite horrific and radically change ones personality. But then i guess everything has a cost I wonder whether anyone has expeienced ibogaine who was tolerant to MDMAs effects and then tried it post use.

[Fantasian]

Most recent update on the hypercium.

To my surprise it works, SWIF followed a 10 day intensive hypercium diet at 6000mg of st johns wort a day. 10 tablets in the morning and 10 tablets in the evening. Waited 2 weeks and then rolled on the saturday. The effects were extremely profound, the rushes were there and the extreme euphoria only generally associated with a users first couple of experience. The whole roll lasted for 5-6 hoursish with a 2 hour peak effects. SWIF found it extremely enjoyable. That said the 2 weeks prior to MDMA use after hypercium therapy were very strange SWIF felt somewhat depressed and down, all in all it wasnt a very enjoyable 2 weeks. From what SWIF understands this will rectify itself again as the serotonin receptors downregulate back to normal levels again.

IN summary does it work? Yes, is it worth it? Not really. for SWIF.