Adderall & Opiate withdrawal

[OhCasey]

Sorry if this has been already posted/Discussed (I searched with no luck) But swim was wondering If any body else takes Adderall and Opiates on a daily basis, and if they notice that the Adderall makes them take less Opiates or hides opiate withdrawal Symptoms really well. Swim takes 6-10 Norcos a day and has been taking 10 mg adderall XR daily. Swim has only taken 2-5 norcos a day since hes been on Adderall. Maybe its just Swim, just thought I'd ask.

[GForce]

I can't testify to the extent of safely combining the two pharmaceuticals, but neurologically it would make sense that Adderall would curb opiate withdrawal. Opiate withdrawal obviously has many negative symptoms associated with it otherwise it wouldn't be an undesirable side-effect of taking less opiates. In addition, opiate tolerance is virtually limitless, causing users who take opiates regularly to have tolerances so high that their dose, while therapeutic to them, would kill someone who has no tolerance. Given that there is no limit to the extent of dependency, there is no limit to the extent of how horrible the withdrawal symptoms can be.

That being said, the withdrawal symptoms, without getting too specific, include poor mood, lack of energy, lack of motivation, and dysphoria in general. I'm sure SWIY is well aware of this. Since Adderall's side effects include improved mood, euphoria, and energy, it isn't surprising that Adderall can offset the dysphoria from opiate withdrawal.

[OhCasey]

What about the phsyical pain?

[Songcycle67]

SWIM sent me the following:

Any physical pain will be worsened during opiate withdrawal. Some new pain will be created--mostly aches, stomach cramps, joints popping, legs made of jello.

I can't find the actual study, but here is a link to the book about a study involving IV opiate addicts who were given amphetamines during *Acute Opiate Withdrawal* (that is, not Post-acute withdrawal, but actual cold turkey night sweats, fevers, etc.--full on morphine withdrawal) to curb physical and mental withdrawal, with the hypothesis and its results listed:

Abstract:
The effects exerted by cocaine, amphetamine and phencyclidine on the acute opiate withdrawal induced by morphine were investigated in vitro.


The results of our experiments indicate that cocaine, amphetamine and phencyclidine are able to influence opiate withdrawal in vitro thus confirming an important functional interaction between the dopaminergic system and opioid withdrawal.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...j?crawler=true


I'm not sure if it's saying that it had a positive effect or negative effect, but I would assume that since it does excite the same receptors, for most people speed during opiate withdrawal (definitely post-acute, maybe acute), it would in all probability induce a feeling of well-being, euphoria, energy, and (last but not least) potentially heavy amounts of diarrhea and the inability to stomach food. I don't know what conditions existed, I assume these people were heavy morphine users...doing a variety of amounts among vast samples of subjects. The doses of amphetamine used were most definitely low, especially to begin with. Maybe a quarter or less of the dose a particular subject would take for recreational use.

This being an old beatnik (and I'm told it was used by many others) method of kicking heroin, I've always wondered if low-dose speed can actually curb or eliminate physical and/or mental withdrawal. I've read a great many subjective reports on this, I'm due to try about a 100mg-per-day/3 month oxycodone withdrawal cold turkey with amphetamine tomorrow, and the majority of these subjective experiences with amphetamines, when taken in therapeutic doses, with a sleep aid available (such as benzodiazepenes) for the comedown, a great majority of people that have tried this have said that it helped them a lot--mostly mentally, with some reporting physical help (most people are scared to death to try this out during physical withdrawal, because it *seems like it would be* so useless and even terrible, so there is very very little information about people trying it before the third or forth day of withdrawal, when most of the effects are mental)

Most of these people were in post-acute withdrawal when this was done (after the sweating and miserable fevers and things) and it significantly reduced depression, loss of energy, loss of interest, boredom, physical discomfort etc.--obvious things. With this study, though, if it says what I think it's saying, and it would make sense: amphetamines can curb opiate withdrawals to the point of being useful physically--something that's rarely said for a drug outside the opiate/synth-opiate family.


With all that said, there are a few key things in there that I want to highlight:

The person should be well supplied with amphetamine (10 days worth to be safe), taken in very very low doses (don't chase the high)

Comedown from the amphetamines should be expected to be absolute hell for at least the first 3-6 days (depending on substance)--coming down into cold turkey should be a horrible experience for that period of time, so it is imperative or highly suggested that one have some kind of sleep-aid so they don't go on amphetamine benders to stay high. Benzos, marijuana, melatonin (and other such natural aids), and even benadryl (don't get carried away) are all well known tricks to cut the edge or at least sleep for a few hours. Taking amphetamines, the subject's body (in tangent with the withdrawal) *will* probably be ready to sleep before the comedown hits fully--take advantage of that and try to stay asleep and off the amphetamine for as much of one's day as possible.



It's interesting to note, as I've been typing this, I've read through hundreds of theories and guestimations as well as subjective experiences about amphetamine and opiate withdrawal and almost all the skepticism comes from people looking at it from the theoretical level, having never done it themselves.

Either there are tons of opiate addicts on the forums i've been visiting who are afraid to speak up about what amphetamines do during withdrawal, or i'd have to conclude that nearly 100% of the people whose personal experiences with amphetamine during withdrawal helped them (for the most part with glowing results). On another forum there was a man in his first withdrawal, complete cold turkey for the first time off of OC's and Demerol asking the same question "does it help?"...he finally got tired of all the speculation and took a low dose of amphetamine. The withdrawal's edge left almost immediately, and he made it to his next doctor's appointment alive (albeit during a major amph crash--unfortunately he only had a little bit, this is why a good supply (and sleeping aids) is important--crashing from speed into opiate withdrawal would be unimaginable hell).



So it is a hard line to walk, the treatment is very precise and every decision must be calculated; one needs to make sure they have a few things extra on hand, but if they're a together person and they have all the right tools, with what i've read, a small small dose can't hurt. Take one even a bit too large, though, and if it does give an adverse effect (some have speculated that it would increase withdrawal pangs tenfold, make the withdrawal time afterward harder, etc.) the subject is looking at a much tougher day than general opiate withdrawal would produce.

I do not suggest that this be done at all, because I don't endorse drugs or sex or free love, but hypothetically (assuming the subject has everything they need should it go wrong--really benzos are a must) it could be very very worthwhile. Hypothetically speaking, again, it could also be hell--increasing the worst symptoms to an absolutely maddening degree.



As for me, benzo's have never helped the withdrawal, i may catch an hour or two of rough sleep during the day--maybe 1-4 at night...but it doesn't reduce the fevers or chills or general dopamine withdrawal to any degree, and that's what really halts sleep.

So I'm trying something new, one day of my life isn't much, and it would make sense, at least to a low level novice biochemist, that if your brain is freaking and going into sick mode because of a lack of pleasure hormones, even if they're not the exact same, as long as there is some kind of pleasure molecule doing something in a few of those slots (amphetamine in this case) it would seem to me that the brain would have nothing to cry about, aside from mentally missing that high and a slight feverish condition due to the brain needing certain parts of the pleasure hormone in opiates that it isn't getting from amphs.

If it's true, the day will pass more quickly, i'll be able to get things done, won't feel useless and chaotic, etc. at the least. I really hope it helps with the sickness, though. I'm sure it won't help everything, but the majority, I hope. It also seems to me, from the research i've done, that most skepticism that gets done through theory uses reason that is actually incorrect, assuming that speed makes you a manic crazy rambling shithead. It's true if too much is done, but if threshold doses are taken (as with ADHD prescriptions) it actually calms the mind, eases the thought process, and gives you mental and emotional clarity. Everyone who's had ADHD, myself included, knows the age old question that gets asked of every one of us: how does speed help someone who is hyper? I don't know the real answer to that, all I can say is that the experience of amphs are much different than what one would expect: much more calming. And if it doesn't make sense to give a hyper kid speed, and that works, I'd say it has a good chance of working where it doesn't really make sense here.


Summary:

Possible Downsides: adverse effects (already mentioned), replacing one habit with another, the possibility of becoming tweaked out for days straight should the subject indulge in amphetamine and not use it therapeutically, increase in diarrhea, increase in sweating, increase in fever (rise in blood pressure), decrease in ability to think clearly/relax/sleep, etc.

Possible Positives: Mental clarity, relief of mental withdrawal, possible relief of physical withdrawal, increased awareness, euphoria, increase in ability to perform constructive activities, decreased boredom, possibly significant decrease in physical discomfort, time passing faster than normal, generally restored functionality.



If it does work get plenty of rest (no matter what!), *try* to eat something, drink lots of fluids (there's gonna be some diarrhea either way), vitamins and supplements are always handy, and be prepared for an absolute nightmare should it not work.

I'll report back with my own subjective experience. Sorry this was so long, lot to cover.

If anyone can help with figuring out the biochemistry involved here, I'd love to know any theoretical guesses.

Also as important (if my trial succeeds at all) are repeated results in other SWIMmers, and reports of past experiences with this combo.


Here's to a longshot, and a long day.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM sent this:

First day it seemed to help a lot--i had around 3-4 mg per dose/three times daily, but it is quite a struggle on that end: juggling the Xannax and Amphetamine has been the hardest part.

I took my first dose when I woke up, in full on sweaty swamp freezer-burnt skin. With these small doses you really get more euphoria than speedy reactions, and that is definitely helping.

The Diarrhea, funnily enough, hasn't happened at all.
I have energy, my skin isn't crawling and sweating, an i'm ready for a good night's sleep after a long day of dosing speed.
I was really surprised at how well this works with such a strong drug withdrawal.

I'm still getting the odd cold chill and sweat, but it's basically like taking a few hydrocodone or something to level out after an Oxy binge.

In my experience though, the shit doesn't hit the fan until the secon or third day, so we'll see how things fare then.

Right now i'm in a very good mood, my brain is not a mess of thoughts, and the euphoria helps a lot.


Maybe this widely disputed subject has something to it.
I suppose I will see soon enough.

[sleepless in nowhere]

My cat says it works. He says no more than 20mg of adderal per day. That's all a person in wd needs. If a person is in true wd and taking the adds, they will notice that they dont do much except knock the wd back. As you make you way out of the hole so to speak on day 3, 4, 5 etc, you'll notice that you need less. Sometimes only 5 mg. Wean it back and leave everything alone. Start exercising.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM sent the following:

It absolutely reduced all symptoms in my case. I experienced no flu-like symptoms, minor chills and hot flashes that were by no means uncomfortable. No depression, no mental anxiety.

Took about 5mg every four-six hours. Great amount of euphoria, surprisingly.

Benzos were required for the comedown as it was quite bad, and it did produce mild diarrhea and stomach discomfort which were treated with immodium and dicyclomine successfully.


Surprisingly, sleep was also improved. Body was more comfortable, and I could even sleep on the speed itself with half a 1mg xanax.

Hands down the easiest withdrawal I've ever had and it should have been hell.

Gonna try a repeat again soon. I was going to wait to post the results for both at the same time, but I figured I'd go ahead since sleepless commented.



I'd recommend it for anyone who has all the necessary supplies.