Subutex is better than suboxone

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim finally got his doctor to switch him to subutex.He should have done this long ago.No more pounding headaches,no more sick,chemical feeling,no disgusting aspirin disguised as oranges flavor.It does pretty much the samething as suboxone but without all the nasty side effects.Swim would reccommend it to anyone unsatisfied with suboxone.

[e-spacecadet]

My friend is looking for a Dr. to start her on buprenorphine ASAP so she can stop a daily heroin habit. Why would Suboxone be worse than Subutex?
I realize Suboxone has the added Naloxone (opiate antagonist) but [why] would it cause side effects?? Anyone know?
Researching for my friend, I found a couple clinics' reps who said the Naloxone portion is only effective if someone shoots Suboxone. When taken properly, sublingually or orally, the Naloxone is not absorbed, thus Suboxone & Subutex are virtually identical. True?
My question then is, why does the literature say Suboxone users won't get 'higher' off opiates -- if the antagonist is inactive anyway?
I'd like responses from people who have tried other opiates/espec heroin, while on 'Subs'. Also, if you take occasional extra opiates for breakthrough pain, will that be blocked or ineffective?! Thanks Much All!

[samuraigecko]

SWIM had a friend whom was on buprenorphine. He would quite often have a shot of H not long after he had had his Bupe . . . he still said it got him high, just not quite as high as normal. Unsure if this was a special case in any way and unsure of his Bupe dosage. However he was blasting 0.2 to 0.3 at a time . . . .

Hope this information has helped in some way.

[OccularFantasm]

Swim has used while on suboxone and while not, as well as the day after. Swim noticed that his high was rather weak comparatively speaking when he was on the subs, and even the next day. The high was still there, but the rush was significantly less intense. The most likely reason swim could think of was that the affinity for the receptors of the bup being higher than the affinity in heroin kept a lot of the receptors with the less euphoric bup and wouldn't let the heroin attach. After a day had gone by swim could get just as high as before. Perhaps buprenorphine has a prolonged half-life that extends further than that of heroin? Swim was on 3 8mg pills at the time this was done, and on average shooting .2-.3g of dope.

Some people are also hypersensitive to the naloxone, even when taken orally or sublingually, in which state the naloxone is supposed to be totally inactive. Swim happens to be one of these people, but unfortunately doctors rather dislike prescribing subutex over suboxone.

Also, swim kept a suboxone with his cotton one time when he used; it certainly is VERY effective rapid onset of withdrawal if injected. This was just residue that had gotten into the cotton too, this wasn't melting down and shooting the pill. That last part was just in case some swiy decided, "it makes swim sick anyway why not shoot it up", so that they would know it certainly would be far worse and with amplified side effects, in swims opinion worse than normal withdrawal.

Hopefully that helps.

[e-spacecadet]

SWIM agrees with previous post.

When SWIM tried to get on Suboxone it turned into a nightmare. Though the Dr. said to just wait another hour to take the 1st tab - and one held off for a another 2 1/2 hours, it was bad. One waited a total of about 16 hours, of which the last 4 grew quite difficult to tolerate. The disgusting precipitated w/d was a mind-f*ck. If one knew it would take over 20 hrs of not using, and wretching on the floor, one's not sure if it would have been tried at all.

It seemed an eternity, waiting for the sub to diminish enuf to be able to feel ANY heroin. As swim recalls, it took about 14 hours from taking the sub to get a bit of releif. Even then, one used alot of h and only felt enuf to be able to sleep off the beating. Called a pharmacist in mid-hell to ask how long this was going to last. He said thou is SOL - for 12 to 36 hrs!!! So this partial agonist does have a long 1/2 life. One could easily find out exactly how long it is, but disgust for the substance leaves one no interest in it whatsoever. It's a bitch one will never encounter again.

It's fine to use heroin on sub maintenance, but not the other way around. Huge difference.

SWIM has taken Oxy's in varying doses while on varying doses of Suboxone.

The short of it is if SWIM has taken 4 MG of sub and then does 80 MG of Oxy he will still feel it, not quite as strong, but that could also just be in his head, it may block it, but only slightly if at all.

SWIM is very careful about doing things the other way around though, he has never taken sub while still high on another Opiate, he always waits until his pupils are Huge looking (this seems to be an easy sign to tell you are no longer high) then he will take the sub. Or he will wait until he feels like shit, he is very scared of the precipitated WD’s and takes great care to avoid them. Sometimes he thinks he can take sub after most of his high wares off in order to avoid feeling like shit but he never risks it and makes sure to wait 24 hours or until the WDs start to come on.

[e-spacecadet]

It's not just in SWIY's head. Sub displaces (knocks off & takes place of) other opiates from receptor sites. That's why it can cause precip. wd's if one is addicted to that other O.
On smaller doses of Sub, there are still available receptors left for another opioid to attach to - giving a high. If one was on a high dose like 30 mg, there may not be enough receptors available to feel another opioid. Fentanyl is reportedly the one opioid that can displace the Subs/Buprenorphine, having an even stronger affinity for the receptors.
Taking Sub while still high on another O would be a waste at the very least.

[cartonb]

the reason subs make you sick when taken while high on opiates is the same reason you wont feel opiates after taking the sub. Bupe (active ingredient in suboxone/subutex) binds to the receptors in the brain very strongly or knocks the opiates off the receptors if there is any. Taking opiates after bupe is a complete waste of drugs. Swim has done a large dose of gooood heroin while on bupe and there was almost no effect. Yes you will feel a high dose of opiates on bupe but it really isnt worth it. from experience even a dose as low as 4 or so mgs of bupe will render your other opiates useless for AT LEAST 24 hrs. after that you will be able to feel most of the high. but on a dose of 16 mgs and higher its smart to wait a good 35 hrs to get the full effect of other opiates. but to answer the topic Q, Swim had been on suboxone for months until he switched doctors and got him to prescribe subutex. Suboxone has some nasty artificial sweetners in it and naloxone. though not much naloxone enters the blood stream when taken as directed subutex (pure bupe w/no naloxone) still feels better. Side effects like headaches and depression are more likely with suboxone and less likely with subutex. Also with SUBOXONE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SPIT IT OUT AFTER IT HAS DISSOLVED for a good 1/2 hr. Many doctors are not aware of this but it says it right in the panflet that comes with the drug or with the pharmacy script panflet. This is because suboxone has about a 10-15% bioavailability when swallowed and more naloxone will enter your system giving you more of the side effects. I know bein an opiod addict spitting out the drug sounds crazy but after being on that drug for a year swim knows for a fact it works much better this way. The subutex can be swallowed after you let it dissolve for a good half hour (depending on the dose, with 16 mgs taken at once swim will let it absorb for a good 50-60 min.) because it doesnt contain naloxone or any of those nasty artificial sweetners. I LOVE BUPE its a life saver!

[Sib]

People sometimes dislike the nalextrone but nalextrone can help with cravings, remember bupe is a worse and longer detox than heroin for most people the trick is to taper to 0

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by Sib

People sometimes dislike the nalextrone but nalextrone can help with cravings, remember bupe is a worse and longer detox than heroin for most people the trick is to taper to 0

Just for future reference Suboxone contains naloxone and not naltrexone. Both of them are antagonists though but just wanted to clarify that

[Sib]

Chill will

[Mr.Opi]

swim just got put on subutex from methadone and swim finds subutex actully to be very strong! swim used to have a bad oxy 160mg a day habbit ..so swims usealy sniffs 1 or 2 mgs to feel high swim just likes to snoot he guesses.. and 4mg under the tounge to feel normal normal meaning not havein withdrals although swim has experienced sum stomach problems and rare headacks from subutex.. overall swim has used suboxone and feels it to not be as strong feeling as subutex it worked for its purpose but dident get swim high at all mabe some placebo but thats all subutex wins this battle