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Opiate addiction Support for coping with Opiate addiction and Opiate addiction treatment.

 
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  #1  
Old 28-01-2008, 20:22
heroin_ed heroin_ed is offline
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Clonidine for opiate withdrawals

SWIM has just told his parents about his heroin addiction that has controlled his life for the last three months. His dad called the doctor and SWIM is going to be put on a drug called clonidine to ease off the withdrawl symptoms. SWIM had tried five times before to quit cold turkey and it didn't work. SWIM's question is this: are there any swimmers out there who have tried clonidine? Does it work?
  #2  
Old 01-02-2008, 20:11
Motumba Motumba is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroin_ed View Post
SWIM has just told his parents about his heroin addiction that has controlled his life for the last three months. His dad called the doctor and SWIM is going to be put on a drug called clonidine to ease off the withdrawl symptoms. SWIM had tried five times before to quit cold turkey and it didn't work. SWIM's question is this: are there any swimmers out there who have tried clonidine? Does it work?
Bro' Clonedine is an old drug, used to modulate blood pressure'
It can help with withdrawal, in that it stops the heart pounding, it works as a beta blocker'

Of how much do you use H wise'

Blue Lilly extract, Apomiphine, will do you much better'

It works by binding to the benzodiazapine receptors, working somewhat like Clorapromazine'
It helps with leg kicks and restless sindrome, also gives a little stymulation for of when you are lagge and mashed through withdrawal'
I know of your pain bro, been there many times'
If ther is anything I can do to help, do not hesitate to contact me'
If you are serious about beating this problem, it would be worth you while IMHO to look into Iboga/Ibogaine treatment'
It worked for me and many others'

Be well'

Stay well,

Stay strong'

Make plan and stick to it brother, there is light at the end of the tunnel, you just have to embrace change is all'

blessed be'

Motumba'
  #3  
Old 01-02-2008, 20:15
Motumba Motumba is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motumba View Post
Bro' Clonedine is an old drug, used to modulate blood pressure'
It can help with withdrawal, in that it stops the heart pounding, it works as a beta blocker'

Of how much do you use H wise'

Blue Lilly extract, Apomiphine, will do you much better'

It works by binding to the benzodiazapine receptors, working somewhat like Clorapromazine'
It helps with leg kicks and restless sindrome, also gives a little stymulation for of when you are lagge and mashed through withdrawal'
I know of your pain bro, been there many times'
If ther is anything I can do to help, do not hesitate to contact me'
If you are serious about beating this problem, it would be worth you while IMHO to look into Iboga/Ibogaine treatment'
It worked for me and many others'

Be well'

Stay well,

Stay strong'

Make plan and stick to it brother, there is light at the end of the tunnel, you just have to embrace change is all'

blessed be'

Motumba'
Be careful with Clonedine' it lowers blood pressue as I have stated, which means it can leave you feeling extreemly weak and deppressed'
Drink plenty of good water 8 pints a day to flush your organs, excorsise, eat well, lots of fruit and nuts, turn yourself into the mon key oyu whee born brother'
  #4  
Old 01-02-2008, 21:02
JaWill88 JaWill88 is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

so clonodine doesn't really ease withdrawals symptoms, just lowers blood pressure? swim went to his doc today cause swim is in withdrawal but got a bunch of clonazepam. that stuff helps out quite a bit with the symptoms of withdrawal like restlessness, restless legs, and over anxiety. might be something to look into. and swim perfers clonazepam over others like alprazolam and stuff because of the long life as well as the muscle relaxing properties of clonazepam.
  #5  
Old 01-02-2008, 21:48
Solinari Solinari is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

I have never heard of Clonodine, but a brief look on Wikipedia and it seems it works in a similar way to Lofexidine which i was given for heroin detox both as an outpatient then an inpatient (residential 2 week detox), i only lasted 3 days for the inpatient detox so at that time i was still tapering off the methadone and didn't get Lofexidine at that time.

When i did get Lofexidine as an outpatient, it was the worst drug for detox i have ever had, it is really nasty and only barely takes the edge off the withdrawals. That said i did get diazepam as well (although a cruelly and ridiculously low dose), so i imagine with Clonidine you WILL need some diazepam (at least 40mg) or alprazolam (at least 4mg). That said, Lofexidine does work and it does ease withdrawal symptoms, and i can only assume clonodine will work in the same way because it is a similar kind of drug that has similar actions and pharmacology to Lofexidine (from the brief look i had at it).

The thing with Lofexidine (and probably Clonidine) is that for a lot of people it will basically knock you out and make you drowsy but it will have ZERO narcotic effect whatsoever. Never the less, with Clonidine, some diazepam and a sleeping tablet (i got zopiclone) then it probably could get you through the withdrawal symptoms.

That said, even if you do get through the detox and become clean, that is the easy part over, the hard part is just beginning. Unless YOU are 100% determined to get off heroin and stay off it for good then it will NOT work, believe me, after you detox you will end up using again and you will be back to square one. You will know in yourself if you are ready to put drugs behind you and get on with your life, no one can do it for you, so unless you are 100% determined and you know you will not use again, then detox is the way to go.

If however you are not ready, and again you will know yourself, then going for some sort of maintenance is the best way to go. For maintenance you really have two options, Methadone or Buprenorphine (Suboxone and/or Subutex). You could actually use either of these for a detox as well by the way, but Buprenorphine is probably better than methadone for that. Buprenorphine is probably the best thing to go with first off for maintenance as well, but Methadone works well also. Personally if Buprenorphine was available when i was put on methadone (after two failed detox attempts) then i probably wouldn't have went with the Methadone.

Even so, the best thing to do would to at least try a detox first off because it might well work even if you know in yourself you're not ready, never the less it is worth a try. And if it doesn't work then you haven't lost anything and you can always go for maintenance with either Buprenorphine or Methadone.

Last thing i would say, is if you go for detox with the clonodine then you WILL definitely need some sort of benzodiazepine like diazepam (Valium) or you will have no chance and the withdrawals will be terrible.


Negative Rep - "40mg of valium for someone with an unknown habit size and tolerance is dangerous at best."

What NONSENSE! At least have the balls to reply to my post and debate it with me instead of making unfounded bullshit negative rep, you coward!



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takng the time to share swiy's experience & good advice to the OP
Good down-to-earth and honest advice from personal experience

Last edited by Solinari; 08-06-2012 at 17:19.
  #6  
Old 01-02-2008, 22:18
~lostgurl~ ~lostgurl~ is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Clonidine is commonly prescribed for heroin withdrawal and less commonly also for Restless Legs Syndrome which is one of worst aspects of heroin withdrawal in my gurls opinion. She has used clonidine for heroin withdrawal (combined with a few days of methadone) and has also used it for Restless Legs Syndrome alone, which it gave some relief for. It will help with heroin withdrawal but it most likely will not be enough by itself.
  #7  
Old 01-02-2008, 22:38
Motumba Motumba is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solinari View Post
I have never heard of Clonodine, but a brief look on Wikipedia and it seems it works in a similar way to Lofexidine which i was given for heroin detox both as an outpatient then an inpatient (residential 2 week detox), i only lasted 3 days for the inpatient detox so at that time i was still tapering off the methadone and didn't get Lofexidine at that time.

When i did get Lofexidine as an outpatient, it was the worst drug for detox i have ever had, it is really nasty and only barely takes the edge off the withdrawals. That said i did get diazepam as well (although a cruelly and ridiculously low dose), so i imagine with Clonidine you WILL need some diazepam (at least 40mg) or alprazolam (at least 4mg). That said, Lofexidine does work and it does ease withdrawal symptoms, and i can only assume clonodine will work in the same way because it is a similar kind of drug that has similar actions and pharmacology to Lofexidine (from the brief look i had at it).

The thing with Lofexidine (and probably Clonidine) is that for a lot of people it will basically knock you out and make you drowsy but it will have ZERO narcotic effect whatsoever. Never the less, with Clonidine, some diazepam and a sleeping tablet (i got zopiclone) then it probably could get you through the withdrawal symptoms.

That said, even if you do get through the detox and become clean, that is the easy part over, the hard part is just beginning. Unless YOU are 100% determined to get off heroin and stay off it for good then it will NOT work, believe me, after you detox you will end up using again and you will be back to square one. You will know in yourself if you are ready to put drugs behind you and get on with your life, no one can do it for you, so unless you are 100% determined and you know you will not use again, then detox is the way to go.

If however you are not ready, and again you will know yourself, then going for some sort of maintenance is the best way to go. For maintenance you really have two options, Methadone or Buprenorphine (Suboxone and/or Subutex). You could actually use either of these for a detox as well by the way, but Buprenorphine is probably better than methadone for that.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Buprenorphine is probably the best thing to go with first off for maintenance as well, but Methadone works well also. Personally if Buprenorphine was available when i was put on methadone (after two failed detox attempts) then i probably wouldn't have went with the Methadone.

Even so, the best thing to do would to at least try a detox first off because it might well work even if you know in yourself you're not ready, never the less it is worth a try. And if it doesn't work then you haven't lost anything and you can always go for maintenance with either Buprenorphine or Methadone.

Last thing i would say, is if you go for detox with the clonodine then you WILL definitely need some sort of benzodiazepine like diazepam (Valium) or you will have no chance and the withdrawals will be terrible.

Just one point here bro' if you go either of these roots you should only us these substances to kick off'

You will be addicted for a very ver very long time if you got the maintainance root because of these bastard drugs half life'

I would look to plants to help and not chemicals because the body is full of them already'
Just my five on all this after freaking too long being fucked inthe ass by doctors and scripts' hospitals and psychs'

In the end, you must graps the change, taking easy roots just polongs the agony for years and years to come'

blessed be'

Excuse my rant'

Motumba'
  #8  
Old 03-02-2008, 19:35
heroin_ed heroin_ed is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Sorry I haven't been on to update everybody. The clonidine honestly made the withdrawals MUCH easier. I'd say about 50% easier. My doctor prescribed me ambien as well to help with the sleep. The first night was hell, even with the ambien I didn't sleep at all, I just tossed and turned in my bed for eight hours. The second, third, fourth, and fifth nights I was able to get to sleep initially but would wake up 2 hours later and not be able to sleep. On the sixth night I found a 30mg temazepam I must have misplaced months ago, I slept all night. As far as the symptoms went. The Clonidine really did help with the RLS, I mean at least I was able to lay down and relax a little without changing positions too much ya know? But after the initial 72 hours everything just got suddenly better. I'm just afraid of having an intense craving and relapsing. The doctor also prescribed me with welbutrin, he said it would help with the mental addiction part. Also I think somebody asked how much I was using. I was shooting about 2/3 - 3/4 of a balloon of black at a time, I don't know how that works out mg wise, but when I started I was able to get 5 or 6 shots off of one balloon so my tolerance wasn't completely out of control, but I mean I was definitely physically dependent.
  #9  
Old 04-02-2008, 15:20
Solinari Solinari is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

If someone has detoxed then well done, but as i said the hard part is just starting, staying off the smack from day to day. The whole heroin addiction isn't just about taking heroin or some opiate, it's the whole life, the daily hunt for a bag, even the daily trips to the high street to steal some razor blades (number 1 stolen item in the UK) or whiskey and vodka (always an easy sell).

My friend did this a few times, but it was never something he did every day, his problems began when his overdraft and credit cards were maxed, then the check book went and then it was off to get treatment. Detox failed, twice, as i mentioned, so its been methadone for a couple of years now probably more, with a self detox in between.

Three months isn't a long time, so now one is detoxed i strongly suggest one gets on with their life without heroin. What i would give to go back 8 years (and be 18 again) and give heroin a miss altogether. Three months is definitely long enough to get physically addicted, no question about that, but one probably hasn't started selling stuff from their own house, stealing from the local shops and supermarkets, or worse. The real problems begin when the habit becomes unaffordable and you have to do things just to get a bag every day, my friend could NEVER go back to that, EVER.

Detox and Clonidine probably was the best choice, i actually missed the three months part in the original post or i wouldn't even have suggested methadone maintenance.

Last edited by Solinari; 02-06-2013 at 14:03.
  #10  
Old 04-02-2008, 20:56
Motumba Motumba is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Power to you bro' now you can get on with feeding your life to bear fruits you can eat, instead of a physical habit'
Awesome to hear' It warms my heart'
Drink the water, eat the food, run like a Warrior, the rest is all bullshit brother'
Feel the love' of being free'

Be well'

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  #11  
Old 04-02-2008, 20:59
heroin_ed heroin_ed is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin wd?

Yes swim is terrified of relapsing. Fortunately though for the past couple days he has hardly had any cravings at all. swim just hope it stays that way and he doesn't give in to the "well just this one time". On another note, swim never did steal to support his habit, but he would tell his parents he needed money for gas or food to buy for his brothers, then blow it on heroin, this is after he quit his job (because of a mood swing caused by heroin) and ran out of money.
  #12  
Old 14-02-2008, 15:38
kborodinski kborodinski is offline
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Re: Clonidine for heroin withdrawals?

I was addicted for 3 years on opiates started doing m-eslon beads with dalaudid then graduated to heroin. When I ran out of money and racked up criminal charges (fraud,theft,..) In court I was ordered to enter a methadone treatment and it worked for me ever since. I am on 130mg per day going down 5mg per month. I live in Ottawa, Canada so the way they do it there is methadone hcl 5mg in 1ml of orange kool-aid. Peace out!
  #13  
Old 13-09-2008, 01:53
JaWill88 JaWill88 is offline
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clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

swim is coming off buprenorphine (suboxone) after being on almost 2 years and is tired of it. his doctor prescribed the usual clonazepam and also, clonidine. can anyone tell swim about it from experience as used for opiate withdrawal, or anything else for that matter? thanks.
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Old 13-09-2008, 18:56
Ranke Ranke is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

Swim is nearing the end of withdrawl from a heroin dependence and was also prescribed clonidine. He found it reduced some of the agitation of withdrawl. He was taking hydroxyzine 25mg, and clonidine .1mg every 6 hours. The first 20 or so hours of withdrawl were terrible but the combination of the medications did allow him to sleep for a significant amount of this time. If swiy has the option of taking this swim would recommend it.

Last edited by Ranke; 13-09-2008 at 19:04. Reason: spelling
  #15  
Old 13-09-2008, 20:02
JaWill88 JaWill88 is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

yes swim thinks the clonidine is helping more than just the 4mg of clonazepam 2x a day. swim is noticabely drowsy. also how has hydroxyzine helped? any more info (hopefully from experience) will be of much help. thanks.
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Old 13-09-2008, 21:38
Ranke Ranke is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

Yes the hydroxyzine has been helpful as well. It is an antihistamine with sedative, hypnotic, and anxiolytic effects. It made sleep far easier for swim. This was a godsend for swim during the worst parts of withdrawl.

Unfortunately swim does not have many suggestions. However as he nears the end of his detox swim has one suggestion based on his experience during withdrawl.
Swim found that interrupting his withdrawl about 20 hours did not simply delay the worst part of withdrawl. Rather when his last balloon of heroin ran out and he went into withdrawl again it was far less severe. It was nowhere near the intensity it had been when he had decided to buy a balloon. He does not know what that day would have been like had he not used heroin. However he suspects his would have been wracked with pain the remainder of that that and into the night. He suspects that the initial withdrawl was enough to catalyze the the change in receptor density and sensitivity that occurs during withdraw.
The same may not hold true for swiy, however it might be worth a try.

Note:
For those curious, swims choice to interrupt his withdrawl was not due entirely to his physical discomfort. A few days prior he had told his girlfriend that he would come visit her. He had not planned on quiting heroin so abruptly and could not have visited her in the state he was in.
  #17  
Old 15-09-2008, 07:11
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

Swim used clonodine (a 7 day catapres patch) and it worked wonders for swim while he was in withdrawal from bupe. The pain's still there, but WAY better than going cold turkey.
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Old 19-10-2008, 13:32
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

It may or may not be true that...

I totally agree with infekt. Clonidine is a wonder drug. I once came of 200mg methadone, going 200mg,100mg,0, using clonodine and a benzo (librium) taper, but I was a benzo addict too at the time. It was far from easy, but it transformed the impossible into the indescribably difficult, which made ALL the difference. I lasted 23 months or so before falling off the wagon that time.

I'm currently reducing from 225mg methadone to 5mg today, and God willing have taken my last methadone 9 hours or so ago. I have been using clonodine the last 3 days, and have a supply to use as needed. I don't like the side-eddects, dry mouth, lethargy, but it really helps with the withdrawals, particularly the anxiety, heart racing symptemology, but also the kicking and muscle pains etc. I suggest you find a thread called "Going cold turkey from 150mg methadone, the easy way!" or something similar. It's the best medical advice I've seen so far, from a doctor with personal experience of addiction. If you want to follow what I've been doing I have a thread called "screaming in the night air. Help emotional and technical for methadone withdrawal". Some of it's a bit left-field, but there might be some useful medical stuff. JaWil, best of luck, my heart goes out to you. If you want any specific advice from me, leave a post on my thread

Love to all

Dr D.
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Old 19-10-2008, 15:39
Psych0nautPlatinum member Psych0naut is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

^^^^ I don't quite follow you with what SWIYou're saying regarding those Methadone dosages. Does SWIY mean he is quitting some other opioid and only has a limited amount of Methadone to help him get through the withdrawal, or does SWIY mean he has been on Methadone maintenance treatment and is reducing his 225mg maintenance dose to 5mg in a day or so? And when SWIY stopped taking Methadone in the past like SWIY mentioned, did he stop from a 200mg maintenance dose, and just by using 200mg, and then 100mg once, and then stopped completely? If so, why doesn't SWIY taper his doses even a little bit? It would have made it much less painfull and horrible as such an abrupt taper. Sorry if I got it wrong, but if you could explain it a bit more clearly, I hopefully would understand it. I'm also on Methadone treatment, using it to gradually tapering down to 10-20mg before switching over to Buprenorphine for the final bit of tapering before quitting completely. So any personal experience with Methadone treatment are always usefull to me. Thanks.
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Old 19-10-2008, 16:04
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

caveat lector etc. I might be lying when I say...

Dear Psychonaut (did you by the way get the name from the book Lieber Null and Psychonaut? It's a word I've seen several times since I first came across it in the name of the book), in answer to your questions...

Both times I was on regular maintenance methadone. The first time I refer to I was on 200+ml/day (maxed out at 700ml i.v. one day), but was pretty stable on 200ml/day (mixed i.v. and oral), this was 1150ml(700 oral 450 i.v.) script each week topped up mostly by amps I bought. Anyone else got scars from the old 50mg/ml amps? I did it so quickly because I was in rehab and that was what I was given. I went in after lunch after taking 200ml was given 100ml the first full day (50am 50pm), and then nothing. To say it was a little rough would be a laughable understatement. I give one example of the experience in my "screaming" thread. More might follow! But the clonodine kept me from bolting much to my own surprise. I was hardly impressed, as you can imagine, with the 200,100,0 decrements!

This time I'm cutting down from 225ml or so a day, in fact probably a bit more. But when I started my reduction I did 225/day for 2 days and didn't suffer noticably. For what it's worth my script is for 115, and the rest I'd buy. All of it was oral this time. I'm not vastly endowed with veins! Again all my experiences this time round are on my "screaming" thread. But in summary I've cut down roughly 5ml/day, slightly quicker in the first week, but from 145ml it's been precisely 5ml/day. I'm doing this not because I have no methadone supply, but because I want to.

I've read on here so often of people cutting down the M and then hitting the B. I've never really understood this as I've never seen conclusive evidence that B is easier to quit than M. I suppose it ought to be because of its partial antagonist properties at the mu receptors, but isn't that slightly contradicted by it having a significantly higher average half-life than M, 2-3 days for B c.f. 1 for M. I always thought M was supposed to be a bitch-slapping whore-maker of a drug principally because of its long half-life, or at least that along with it's high lipid-solubility, which I think is the cause (or one of the causes) of the long half-life.

Anyway it's definitely the fashion to switch to Bupe for the end, but I'd recomend clonodine for both the short-withdrawal you must do to make the switch, and for the end of the bupe taper.

B.T.W. how much M are you on at the moment? I'm in my 12th hour since my 5mg send off this a.m. So wish me luck!!

D bows and disappears.

P.S.: Abbreviations used. M=methadone, B=buprenorphine (subutex, suboxone) and c.f. technically means confer but really means "compared with" or "compare"; it's a standard English usage, maybe a little esoteric these days.

Last edited by Dickon; 03-11-2008 at 18:22. Reason: To clarify abbreviations
  #21  
Old 19-10-2008, 20:31
Richard_smoker Richard_smoker is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

clonidine (and guanfacine, aka tenex) are alpha adrenergic blocking medications. they will help stabilize the autonomic instability associated with kicking opiate addiction.

translation: they have a calming effect on the heart, blood vessels, nerves, and will help with piloerection (goose-flesh / goose-bumps) and also will decrease sweating.

-DICK
  #22  
Old 20-10-2008, 00:28
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

SWIM's uncle died and SWIM found a huge bottle of clonodine cleaning up his place (and didn't even know what it was at the time). SWIM was an IV H addict at the time, and realized after an internet search that he hit the fucking jackpot. Clonodine helps A LOT. You are still going to feel like shit on clonodine, but it's nothing compared to the hellish agony of full blown withdrawals. Richard is right, the best thing it does is get rid of the hot/cold flashes. SWIM's bro took 8 clonodines and like 4 ladders of xanax and said he went blind for a while and knocked himself out for like a day, but this was in full blown withdrawals and being able to knock yourself out is a blessing.
  #23  
Old 20-10-2008, 01:21
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

i'm not surprised.

one BIG reason why most people recommend seeing a doctor or being placed into a hospital for detoxification is because people going through withdrawal/detox will frequently require HUGE doses of supplemental meds.

Now, don't take this the wrong way and assume I'm saying that it's ok to kill oneself with supplemental meds during detox. Overdose from clonidine or benzos is still POSSIBLE during withdrawal! But, for whatever it's worth, it is rather commonplace for the drug requirements to far exceed 'normal' prescribing quantities.

How high can you go?
I HAVE NO IDEA! No need to push it... just take small amounts at regular intervals until relief is obtained. (for clonidine, relief would be defined as decreased heart rate and significantly decreased sweating--NOT DEATH!)

Be very careful with Clonidine!

Children overdose and DIE by accidental ingestion of their parents' & grandparents' clonidine EVERY DAY!!!

with that in mind, i believe most adults should be ok with a dose of 2 to 4mg (guanfacine/tenex is dosed the same: 2-4mg). Just remember what the drug is treating. Start with a small dose, and repeat slowly until sweating subsides. When it does, you'll have a good idea of your 'ideal' (non-lethal) dose. -DICK

EDIT: DOSING FOR CLONIDINE IS WRONG... It should read 0.2 to 0.4mg for clonidine. all else is correct.

Last edited by Richard_smoker; 30-10-2008 at 00:54.
  #24  
Old 20-10-2008, 09:45
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

It seems that clonidine is reasonably safe. In mice and rats, the oral LD50 (this stands for Lethal Dose 50. i.e. the ammount of stuff that if injested kills 50% of the sample) of Clonidine is 206 and 465 mg/kg, respectively[drugs.com], so let's assume humans are a hundred times as succeptible as mice, the ld50 would be 2mg/kg. Thus in an 11 stone (70kg) man, the LD50 would be 140mg. Considering the strongest tablets are 0.3mg, that would make a little over 450 tablets. So let's assume that taking one hundredth of the LD50 would give us LD0 (i.e. a totally safe dose.) or technically LDepsilon (i.e. a dose that would kill a microsopic fraction by shear bad luck, such as a completely unique allergy etc. Nothing in life is 100% safe) one could still get away with 4.5 of the highest strength pills at a go. As I think one usually gets 0.1mg pills this would allow for 14 of these to be taken at a time (4.5 is really 4.667). I think my calculations are deeply conservative (I hope so), so that I'm not going to be sending anyone to their death. But I stress I am no doctor (or at least no medical doctor), and although I'd be more than happy to take my chances with the above reasoning, caveat lector (reader beware). The highest recorded overdose [once again reference:drugs.com, the professional info on drugs there is good] was a 28 y.o. man who took 100mg of clonidine powder. I don't imagine the man had a nice few days, but he did make a full recovery.

OK once again, raiding drug.com for nuggets, the maximum effective dose according to unspecified "studies", is 2.4 mg (24 o.1mg pills. So if you're dosing 3 times a day you don't need to exceed 8[Let me stress I'm taking about 0.1mg pills!]).

There is one other well known problem with clonidine, and that is rebound hypertension (high blood pressure). I don't imagine the length this stuff is used for in a detox, I can't imagine anyone wanting to use this for more than 14 days, is likely to lead to this being as severe as a long term user. However that said it should be tapered over 2 to 4 days at the end. If at all possible check your blood pressure regularly and if it's excessively high then take another clonodine, and slow down the taper.

Hope that helps - Dr D.

Dickon added 27 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

I need to add an important P.S. to my last post.

Firstly 2.4mg/day is a ridiculously high dose. No one should start out by gobbling 0.8mg in one go. Start with at most 0.2mg 3/4 times a day (Ideally build up to this over a couple of days, and monitor blood pressure for hypotension --- low blood pressure) . This is enough for most people.

Secondly Dick is right in that clonidine (I've been saying clonodine all this time - silly me) is not great with children. But I found one study on pediatric deaths from clonodine saying there had only been one death in 10,000 overdoses [Klein-Schwartz W. Trends and toxic effects from pediatric clonidine exposures. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2002; 156:392-396], so unless Dick knows otherwise, and he is a man who's words I value, I wonder if he hasn't picked up on some slightly exagerated media report. But speaking as a parent of a young child, I'd not like to take the risk if it was 1 in 100,000,000!

Dickon added 16 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

PPS

Maybe what Dick is refering to is the statistic that Clonidine exposure is responsible for more than 5000 poisonings per year [http://www.krpc.com/proffed/clonidine%5Cclonidine.cfm] (I'm not sure where this is - most likely the U.S.) so it seems that although there are few fatalities, children can suffer severe problems. The same site says that 0.1mg is sufficient to cause poisoning in a young child. So KEEP IT AWAY FROM CHILDREN!!

Last edited by Dickon; 20-10-2008 at 09:45. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #25  
Old 27-10-2008, 03:20
Psych0nautPlatinum member Psych0naut is offline
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Re: clonidine? anyone used for opiate withdrawal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickon View Post
caveat lector etc. I might be lying when I say...

Dear Psychonaut (did you by the way get the name from the book Lieber Null and Psychonaut? It's a word I've seen several times since I first came across it in the name of the book), in answer to your questions...

Both times I was on regular maintenance methadone. The first time I refer to I was on 200+ml/day (maxed out at 700ml i.v. one day), but was pretty stable on 200ml/day (mixed i.v. and oral), this was 1150ml(700 oral 450 i.v.) script each week topped up mostly by amps I bought. Anyone else got scars from the old 50mg/ml amps? I did it so quickly because I was in rehab and that was what I was given. I went in after lunch after taking 200ml was given 100ml the first full day (50am 50pm), and then nothing. To say it was a little rough would be a laughable understatement. I give one example of the experience in my "screaming" thread. More might follow! But the clonodine kept me from bolting much to my own surprise. I was hardly impressed, as you can imagine, with the 200,100,0 decrements!

This time I'm cutting down from 225ml or so a day, in fact probably a bit more. But when I started my reduction I did 225/day for 2 days and didn't suffer noticably. For what it's worth my script is for 115, and the rest I'd buy. All of it was oral this time. I'm not vastly endowed with veins! Again all my experiences this time round are on my "screaming" thread. But in summary I've cut down roughly 5ml/day, slightly quicker in the first week, but from 145ml it's been precisely 5ml/day. I'm doing this not because I have no methadone supply, but because I want to.

I've read on here so often of people cutting down the M and then hitting the B. I've never really understood this as I've never seen conclusive evidence that B is easier to quit than M. I suppose it ought to be because of its partial antagonist properties at the mu receptors, but isn't that slightly contradicted by it having a significantly higher average half-life than M, 2-3 days for B c.f. 1 for M. I always thought M was supposed to be a bitch-slapping whore-maker of a drug principally because of its long half-life, or at least that along with it's high lipid-solubility, which I think is the cause (or one of the causes) of the long half-life.

Anyway it's definitely the fashion to switch to Bupe for the end, but I'd recomend clonodine for both the short-withdrawal you must do to make the switch, and for the end of the bupe taper.

B.T.W. how much M are you on at the moment? I'm in my 12th hour since my 5mg send off this a.m. So wish me luck!!

D bows and disappears.
Nope, I've never heared of that book.

Those where incredibly high doses you had to withdraw from, and only with a one or two day taper, that's just brutal torture! No one should be forced to get off of such a high maintenance dose of Methadone so fast. You said you were taking it both orally and IV, and also talked about getting 1150ml(700 oral 450 i.v.) scripted each week. Did you get Methadone injection vials prescribed to you for maintenance therapy, because you mentioned 50mg/ml vials later on in you post? Anyway, I really have a lot of pity for what you had to go through. A lot of people already suffer greatly when quitting Methadone after having carefully tapered till the point of stopping taking it completely. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to suddenly quit taking it altogether in only 2 days when you're on such a high dose like you were

The reason so many people jump over to Bupe when tapered down low enough is because Bupe is much easier to kick IF tapered according to the proper schedule. The taper with Bupe once switched over from Methadone should last no more than 2 weeks, but most people only take 5 to 10 days to kick it completely. The rate at which the Bupe taper is done is crucial to quitting withdrawl free. One should not taper to fast, nor too slow. I can't remember the specific tapering process used in the fast Bupe taper after switching over from Methadone, but I'll look it up and post it here. Anyway, the magical thing about Bupe and what makes it a miracle drug in the eyes of many people, is that you won't get physically addicted to it when using it to replace Methadone if it's only used for a fast taper of 5-14 days, due to it being only a partional agonist. But it does have enough affinity and activity at the mu-opioid receptors to kill withdrawl. The exact mechanism behind Buprenorphine that makes it such a miracle drug, still isn't fully understanded by scientists. It shure is one intriguing drug, and can indeed be a miracle when used corectly, something I hope to experience as well, in a while, when I've tapered down enough and am ready to switch over from Methadone to Bupe. I'll certainly report back to D-F when I'm about to do so. Bupe does indeed have a longer half-life, but the key is, like I said, to only use it for a very short while and by a short taper. If Bupe is stopped taken after being on it for long periods such as many months or even years, like with Methadone, the withdrawals are just pure hell, and can last an eternity, literally for more than a month.

SWIM is on 80mg of Methadone a day at the moment, but he hopes on tapering with aprox. 5mg a week, till he's at 10-20mg Methadone a day, then switch over to Bupe for the final taper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow View Post
SWIM's uncle died and SWIM found a huge bottle of clonodine cleaning up his place (and didn't even know what it was at the time). SWIM was an IV H addict at the time, and realized after an internet search that he hit the fucking jackpot. Clonodine helps A LOT. You are still going to feel like shit on clonodine, but it's nothing compared to the hellish agony of full blown withdrawals. Richard is right, the best thing it does is get rid of the hot/cold flashes. SWIM's bro took 8 clonodines and like 4 ladders of xanax and said he went blind for a while and knocked himself out for like a day, but this was in full blown withdrawals and being able to knock yourself out is a blessing.
Could you please abstain from using slang words when describing drugs and quantities of drugs? Slang words can differ between each region and country, since we have people from all over the world, that could give some problems understanding it for quite a few members.

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