BZP harm reduction (reduction of pH-level)

[0utrider]

Hi!

this is not a manual, just an idee, which might work, i hope its not already been posted.

i noticed that bzp is relatively harmless if used responsible (dosage + usual safer-user rules, like drinking water, avoiding (especially exzessive) alkohol and such).

i figured that one big problem is its pH-value, which is extremly high, making it really basic and thus hard on the stomach (which is rather acidic). i forgot how high the pH was, somewhere around 10, it can be tested with pH-testing-strips, cheap & easily available in every pharmacy or gardening-store. so you can test it yourself.

i thought that maybe if you dissolve the bzp powder in concentrated lemon-juice (pure) it will eventually lower the pH (which can be tested via pH-testing-strips). just use a tiny bit, a few drops, first and let it sit, till the water vaporizes. you should now have a powder which has a lower pH level.

the other idea would be, easy and safer but maybe not working as well, just consuming the bzp in capsules and adding a lil bit of Vit C powder to it, so when it opens up in the stomach it will help the stomach lowering the pH level + also reduce neg. sideffects (as its Vit C).

whats ur opionion on this?

btw im not taking bzp, never have and never will, so i dont use a third person narrator

[Zaprenz]

Benzylpiperazie Hydrochloride is the salt most commonly seen.

=> weak base + Strong Acid

1. When the parent acid and base are strong, a water solution of the salt is neutral.
2. When a salt is formed from the reaction between a weak acid and a strong base, a water solution of that salt will be basic.
3. When a salt is formed from a strong acid and a weak base, a water solution of the salt will be acidic.
4. When a salt is formed from a weak acid and a weak base, a water solution of the salt could be acidic, basic or neutral depending on the nature of the ions.

Is the suggestion citric acid may act as a slight buffer [?] Or somehow making BZP Citrate [?] (or another weak acid salt if that's chemically possible)

Either way as soon as it hits the stomach SWIM can't imagine it preventing the harshness of BZP once absorbed. Vitamin C might offer some minor help for other reasons but there are FAR more serious side effects from BZP which are MORE relevant as well as other problems (lack of sleep, lack of nutrition etc) which would probably be the main focus of harm minimisation.

Can't really forsee citric acid making that much difference [?]

[0utrider]

well a friend of mine testet it, he had BZP HCL, which was a powder. when he measured the ph of it it was pretty basic. so he added some vit c (ascorbic acid, not citric acid) to it, by adding lemon juice. the water of it evaporated and when he measured the ph next time it was far lower and thus not as harsh on the stomach.

it is a harm reduction, depending on the consumption habits of the user. as u said, some take a lot and are awake for long times without sleep or good nutrition, of course the focus has the be on that.
but other just use it in lower dosages, staying awake not much longer than the would without bzp. for those lack of sleep and malnutrition is not really a problem. SWIM has experienced it himself, takin just 200-300mg bzp but drinking lots of alcohol with it and when he woke up the next morning he noticed that the biggest problem was his stomach..

[Zaprenz]

Well the stomach has a pH of 1 - 3. [This changes depends on food intake]

Once BZP is dissolved and in solution in the stomach the citric acid is only going to act as a weaker acid. (Hydrochloric acid is present in stomach). [May this possibly hinder neutralising BZP and stimulate further peptic acid secretion? Certainly the peptic acid secretions would normally maintin the pH ]

There is logic in making the drug SOLUTION more neutral (for protection of the throat, mouth etc) if the solution is basic (although this may be an indicator of a poorely produced salt? SWIM is unsure of this part) & being dosed in such a way but then if that's the case it would be MUCH better to use a capsule.

Also if BZP itself (as a compound) is going to stimulate gastric acid secretion, the citric acid wont help and whatever damage BZP might do to the Duodenum, jejunum, ileum and colon is dependant on the many other factors (the effect of the citric acid will be long gone by then). [If BZP is found to stimulate acid secretion in the stomach then enteric coated formulations may make sense but that's a whole different topic of dissolution of tablets, pharmacokinetic of BZP, formulation and manufacturers are not going to fund any research in that area nor make an enteric coated or slow release tablet]


Yep still cannot see there is much logic. Rather have the drug delivered in a capsule to protect throat & mouth. This will mean any BZP base which may be a % impurity will instantly be converted to the salt when coming in contact with the stomach acid. [Ideally produce BZP with no impurities and as a suitable salt but understandably most users will not have control of that part of the process]

However don't expect this to solve the problem though as many people experience numerous GI side effects from piperazines which are mostly a result of the actual piperazines themselves. BZP base is indeed corrosive and basic (shouldn't be consumed full stop) and BZP salt is also an irritant to eyes, skin, respiratory system.

[0utrider]

no, im talking about lowering the Ph before (!) ingestion, while it is a liquid and then letting it (with a lower ph) dry out to a powder and ingest it via capsule. why doesnt that make sense?

Reputation Comments on this post:

good idea SWIM just can't see logic. Ideas are appreciated though.

[Zaprenz]

Because Benzylpiperazine is distributed as the Hydrochloride salt! (and pH can only be measured in solution)

Hydrochloric acid (which is present in the stomach) is far stronger than citric or ascorbic acid(both weak acids). Hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) will neutralise or acidify any slightly basic compound in solution so quickly that any additional weak organic acid will have little effect. If anything dyspepsia (too much stomach acidity or low pH) will be a concern with many compounds.

If you are referring to treating BZP Base (which shouldn't be ingested) with citric acid, again it would be far more logical to use Hydrochloric acid to form BZP Hydrochloride. [that is what will happen in the stomach anyway]

The arguement could make sense if it was somehow acting as a buffer (BZP citrate & citric acid combined). In this sense the buffer is preventing the stomach conditions having too LOW a pH (preventing too much acidity). The problem with this is stomach acidity is very much dependant on food and diet & the buffer itself would have a very limited effect in comparison. The stomach also needs to have a low pH (1-3) so that it can digest food although if this is ultimately the goal though to INCREASE PH (because BZP is stimulating too much acid) it would make more sense to take it with food. It may also make sense if an impure batch of BZP HCL had considerable % of BZP base - in which case any acid may help but in this case the synthesis is the problem and BZP HCL will form in the stomach fairly fast anyway.

So to SWIM the idea still doesn't make sense for harm minimisation advice. (Sure adding Vitamin C may help for it's antioxidant effect but don't confuse that with pH / salt issues)

Reputation Comments on this post:

	great chemistry knowledge
	Very informative posts in this thread, thanks.

[0utrider]

in case someone i met added vitamin c / ascorbic acid to his bzp, wuould that change anything in regards to storing the bzp? could it decompose faster? or does it even presevere it longer or make no difference at all?

[Pomzazed]

It is not that BZP base is impurity in BZP.HCl making it basic at pH...

But, the piperazine ring contain TWO nitrogen atom which both are basic site. The BZP.HCl comes in mono-hydrochloride salt which one point forms a salt with hydrochloric acid, rendering its slightly acidic site. while THE OTHER nitrogen still behave like freebase, and thus rendering all BZP.HCl pH level around ~10


Fig I : BZP Structure
Notice the TWO amine group

This wont happen with the dihydrochloride salt of BZP tho (BZP.2HCl) which is slightly acidic.

Mixing weak acids like lemon juice will help in the part of ingesting if its not in the pill, coz pH 10 irritates and corrosives to the tissue (ie. if one's drinking BZP.HCl soluted in water).

But it wont help at the point of more-gastric-juice releasing properties of BZP itself tho.

---------
To outriderx :
BZP is stable under normal condition, adding acid wont alter its lifetime (aka. at room temp and "normal" conditions, this molecule is very stable and can be interconvert back and forth between freebase and salt)