Opinions - Best Prescription-Free Sleeping Aid

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by acolon_5

Melatonin in the 6-12mgs range works wonders. Don't think its placebo either. Try taking 24mgs of it and then telling me it is placebo.... if you got no stims in you it WILL knock you out at the higher doses.

See, that's the thing with prescription sleep aids tho... they'll knock you out even if you do have stims in you. Drugs like Ambien or Lunesta not only sedate you, they switch off the part of the brain that resists sedation/sleep and keeps up the endless mental chatter. Practically guaranteeing sleep, as long as a person's lying down or relaxing. No dosage of melatonin is gonna do that, and that's why scripts are indispensable IMO.

That said, SWIM is going to try high-dose melatonin. The doxylamine succinate didn't work so well for him last night, even after redosing (he was frustratingly on the verge of sleep in a sort of trance most of the night... never got any REM sleep worth talking about).

[Paracelsus]

it might sound strange, but when i really have to be well-rested for the next day and i'm out of benzos and exigan(valerian+phenobarbital) i just take a non-psychoactive dose of nutmeg (2-3g ground nutmeg powder) in the afternoon, around 15.00. This makes me fall asleep somewhere around 22, and i usually wake up after a minimum of 10 hours of deep sleep.

I discovered this a couple of years ago, when I tried to get high from nutmeg and I never managed to ingest enough (it tastes *GROSS*). The only effect that I got from this was long and deep sleep.

9mg melatonin 30 minutes before bedtime will help for most people though.

EDIT: one reference for nutmeg (Legal Highs by Adam Gottlieb):

Originally Posted by Adam Gottlieb

NUTMEG -- _Myristican fragrans._ Family Myristicaceae (Nutmeg
family).
Material: Seed of tropical evergreen tree found in East and West
Indies.
Usage: 5-20 grams of whole or ground nutmeg is ingested.
Active Constituents: Methylenedioxy-substituted compounds:
myristicin (non-amine precursor of 3-methoxy-4,5-
methylenedioxyamephatemine [MMDA]), elemicin, and safrole (non-amine
precursor of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine [MDA]). These and other
aromatic fractions combine synergistically to produce psychotropic
effect. Terpenes enhance absorption.
Effects: Possible nausea during first 45 minutes, followed in
several hours by silly feelings and giggling, and then dryness of
mouth and throat, flushing of skin and bloodshot eyes, heavy
intoxicated feeling, incoherent speech and impaired motor function.
This is followed by tranquil feelings, stupor with inability to sleep,
euphoria and twilight state dreams. Total experience lasts about 12
hours, followed by 24 hours of drowsiness and sleep.
Contraindications: May cause temporary constipation and
difficulty in urination. Nutmeg oils increase fat deposits on liver.
Safrole is carcinogenic and toxic to liver. Beneficial as spice or in
small amounts; not recommended as hallucinogen.
Supplier: Grocery stores; viable seeds, RCS.

.

Reputation Comments on this post:

brilliance!

[Paracelsus]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

That said, SWIM is going to try high-dose melatonin.

Melatonine is a hormone so it doesn't knock one out like benzodiazepines/barbiturates do, but it helps for a good sleep.

I remember after it was proven that high levels of melatonin lower estrogen and progesteron level, melatonin was used in 75mg (!!!)doses as an anticonceptional. This wouldn't have happened if melatonin would induce sleep like hypnotics do.
All that melatonin does is it helps the body establish a healthy sleep cycle, by inducing tiredness when it starts to get dark around you. So it is best to darken the room when using this. Otherwise it will most likely have no effect at all.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

Melatonine is a hormone so it doesn't knock one out like benzodiazepines/barbiturates do, but it helps for a good sleep.

I remember after it was proven that high levels of melatonin lower estrogen and progesteron level, melatonin was used in 75mg (!!!)doses as an anticonceptional. This wouldn't have happened if melatonin would induce sleep like hypnotics do.
All that melatonin does is it helps the body establish a healthy sleep cycle, by inducing tiredness when it starts to get dark around you. So it is best to darken the room when using this. Otherwise it will most likely have no effect at all.

Melatonin does have something of a hypnotic effect, at least for some people:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...notic+activity

Originally Posted by Nicaine

SWIM started an experiment... he mixed 1.5mg melatonin, 12.5mg diphenhydramine and 12.5mg doxylamine succinate in water, and is planning on letting the crap from the pills settle out (the actual substances are all water soluble) and trying that via rectal admin for sleep.

BTW, the above worked very, very well. Almost too well, SWIM was getting some minor closed-eye visual hallucinations after taking it. Apparently the combo of doxylamine and diphenhydramine is pretty potent. SWIM recommends (if anyone else is nuts enough to take it rectally) it to use only 1/2 of the above mixture and see how it affects you.

[azrael2600]

swim has used a low dose of diphenhydramine as a sleep aid with amazing success. although swim has noticed that when swim has taken a high dose of diphenhydramine swim has experienced minor hallucinations.

[mfrieze]

50mg of diphenhydramine knocks me right out within 2 hours. diphenhydramine never used to do anything to me until i did about 800mg of it to trip.. every since then.. even 25mg's will put me to sleep

[Fantasian]

SWIF always found that a 5-HTP supplement always helped him sleep.

[Nicaine]

BTW, I found out that the oral bioavailability of melatonin in humans is only 15%. Sounds like a prime candidate for either (A) sublingual admin, or (B) rectal admin {dissolved in water}.

Originally Posted by Fantasian

SWIF always found that a 5-HTP supplement always helped him sleep.

Actually, that's relevant... 5-HTP is converted to serotonin in the brain, which is then converted to melatonin. Might be worth taking the melatonin directly to avoid serotonergic side effects (anxiety, flushing, diarrhea) but of course it's up to the individual.

[Paracelsus]

hmmm interesting. i tried medium doses sublingual a couple of times, after a suggestion from psych0naut in SWINicaine's thread "manly use of ambien". It does definitely work, although i haven't seen any dramatic increase in effects. rectal administration would have the highest bioavailability i think.

Are there any melatonin suppositories (or how the fuck are they called in english) around? [seems more tolerable to me than rectal syringe...]

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

Are there any melatonin suppositories (or how the fuck are they called in english) around? [seems more tolerable to me than rectal syringe...]

No, not that SWIM is aware of. But there's absolutely nothing intolerable (or even uncomfortable) about a rectal syringe, at least in SWIM's opinion. Unless a person has phobias in that department.

SWIM started an experiment... he mixed 1.5mg melatonin, 12.5mg diphenhydramine and 12.5mg doxylamine succinate in water, and is planning on letting the crap from the pills settle out (the actual substances are all water soluble) and trying that via rectal admin for sleep. Should be an interesting combo (which of course could all be taken separately/orally, but wouldn't be either as fast acting or as effective as rectal). SWIM has had little luck with these ingredients individually, but in combination perhaps there's some synergy. He should be getting his Ambien refilled in about 7 days, so he can give up on this other nonsense and go back to what works well/consistently for him.

[Fantasian]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

BTW, I found out that the oral bioavailability of melatonin in humans is only 15%. Sounds like a prime candidate for either (A) sublingual admin, or (B) rectal admin {dissolved in water}.


Actually, that's relevant... 5-HTP is converted to serotonin in the brain, which is then converted to melatonin. Might be worth taking the melatonin directly to avoid serotonergic side effects (anxiety, flushing, diarrhea) but of course it's up to the individual.

SWIF atually enjoys the sideeffects from 5-HTP, it makes him feel a little flushed and tingly!

SWIF has taken meletonin in the past but never found it very effective.

[psyche]

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, I didn't read the whole thread, but since melatonin is chemically related to serotonin and other monoamines, would it be worth trying to take a MAOI along with melatonin. Or is it somehow dangerous?

[Paracelsus]

Don't try that unless you are 100% sure that it isn't dangerous.
Melatonin is related to DMT in its chemical structure. (look up melatonin and dmt on Wikipedia)

[Nagognog2]

An anti-histamine taken rectally? Be interesting to see if there is a rebound effect - such as sneezing out SWIM's asshole all the next day. Also as diphenhydramine is generally supplied as the hydrochloride, there might be some burning issues to address.

[Paracelsus]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Also as diphenhydramine is generally supplied as the hydrochloride, there might be some burning issues to address.

What about hydrochloride? Do you mean acidity or something else is the problem? If it's acidity, no problem, neutralize it with something slightly basic. (Check pH)

[Tropical]

50mg of diphenhydramine doesn't do much for me. 100mg helps me sleep, but it leaves me groggy the next day.

The same 50mg combined with .25g of weed baked into a cookie leads to a blissful night of sleep without any hangover for SWIM.

[Nicaine]

SWIM is almost out of Ambien and will have to do some creative experimenting again. He's going to order phenibut, despite some warnings. He thinks if used carefully it could help with relaxation and sleep.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

diphenhydramine totally. and there are definate negatives to 200 mg's, like a trip to the psych ward after imagining you're spiderman and falling from a three story window. ok, i'm exaggerating but you get my point?

[Paracelsus]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

Melatonin does have something of a hypnotic effect, at least for some people:

I wanted to try to verify that (on my buddy SWIM).

SWIM once took 15mg melatonin orally, on an empty stomach (around 5 PM). After about 30 minutes, he noticed a slight hypnotic effect coming on, and after an hour he couldn't hold himself awake and he fell asleep. Woke up at 8 PM, after reaching REM sleep (dreaming).

On other two occasions, SWIM took 15 mg / 18 mg melatonin, under the same circumstances, but no noticeable effects occured.
Pretty strange, especially considering that SWIM swears that the first trial wasn't just placebo.

[DrMuffy]

In SWIdr's opinion Bynadryl or diphenhydramine is the best OTC sleep aid. It usually knocks SWIdr out (though usually in a slightly uncomfortable way), and its half life is only like 6 hour so it sahouldnt cause a hangover. There are alot of herbal sleep eids though that can be used in combos that can really help too, so there are ALOT of options to choose from...

[darkd3vil]

For SWIM 3mg of melatonin sublingual 30 min prior to lying down in his bed in a dark room does somehow calms him down but has no hypnotic qualities. But SWIM thinks it's more of use because of the strong anti-oxidant qualities it wears!

[Beeker]

50mg diphenhydramine swigged down by half a dose of NyQuil followed by sex - out cold ... with a smile!

[El Calico Loco]

Swim has had some luck with regular doses of diphenhydramine, melatonin, kava kava root, valerian, and vitamin B6. This combo knocks him right the fuck out, and it's a peaceful, refreshing sleep.

Not something he does everyday...only when the insomnia seems impervious to diphenhydramine alone.


ECL

[MrMouse]

Promethazine & Diphenhydramine both OTC UK work in combo I've heard.
They do nowt for me though.

[Bajeda]

Melatonin is the best OTC sleeping aid swim has tried. A week of taking it a few hours before he wants to go to sleep and his sleep schedule is back on track! Its also excellent for eliminating jet-lag.

Someone mentioned above that you need to darken the room for Melatonin to work properly? I think you are mistaken somewhat. When it gets dark out your pineal gland produces more Melatonin in your body, peaking at 2:00AM I believe. The levels fluctuate naturally throughout the day, increasing when it gets dark and diminishing when it gets light. This isn't the most responsive process, so taking a supplement of Melatonin you'd want to take it before the hours of the day when it would peak naturally, otherwise you'll end up feeling more tired the next day.


5-HTP is also helpful in inducing drowsiness to a certain extent, though swim finds this most helpful in combination with Melatonin. Swim takes the Melatonin at 10pm say, and then will take the 5-HTP about 20 minutes before he wants to go to sleep, so at 11:40 perhaps in this instance. It helps intensify his drowsiness further so he can lie down and fall asleep fairly quickly and wake up feeling fine the next day.

And if swim has an especially messed up sleep schedule (when swim takes Melatonin he usually will max it out at 3mg, 1.5 if he is taking it later than he usually would) he will take some Kava along with the Melatonin and 5-HTP (he just started doing this recently). This will help him get off to sleep in instances where otherwise the Melatonin - 5-HTP combo wouldn't quite be enough and swim would be lying in bed for at least a good hour or so before passing out.

Also, just to note, swim doesn't take Melatonin all the time. He doesn't find it necessary or think it especially healthy to take supplements such as M on a consistent basis. If he uses it regularly for a week his sleep schedule is set fairly well - and can survive fluctuations - so all he needs to do is be active during the day and he can fall asleep without the usual difficulty he has, and if that doesn't work he can take some other substance to help make him drowsy so he can pass out, i.e. Kava, 5-HTP, Xanax, some other Ethno, etc.