DMT: The Spirit Molecule

DMT: The Spirit Molecule

by Rick Strassman MD
Published by RoboCop Platinum member & Advisor

13-01-2005

Number of pages:

320

DMT: The Spirit Molecule

DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences
by Rick Strassman MD

Has anyone read the book DMT the spirit molecule? It is a must have for dmt users. If anyone here has read it please respond to what you thought of it I got it a few days ago and am still in the middle of reading it, (also reading Food of the Gods, has lots to do with dmt also.) This book is so fascinating, its unbelievable, first hand experiences, very intellectual input and things you won't find on erowid. The author has been researching this drug FDA approved for over 20 years, I don't think there is a more informative book on dmt.

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By PrideKills on 24-01-2005, 02:28

Found this book recently for 3 bucks. Great Read!

By Montgolfier on 22-06-2005, 23:31

Robocop - Just finished reading this book -absolutely fascinating!! -there is a lot of quite technical information on there to do with the pineal gland and melatonin etc that I did found a bit of a struggle to get through but it was well worth it for the trip reports!

. .what makes this book so good is the objectional way that its written, im not into reading a 'pro-hippy' 'one-sided' story of psychedelic adventures, I prefer a more feet-on-the-ground approach so you can make your own mind up. this book has also given me inspiration to read further into other 'near death experiences and 'encounters'

btw - If you liked the Alex gray artwork on the front cover, his website hasloads more inspirational artwork on there:

http://www.alexgrey.com/

By raven3davis on 23-06-2005, 06:16

Man Im jealous! I have been wanting to read this book for ages, but I requested it at barnes and noble one time and it was damaged when it got there and they never ordered me a new one. I was just looking for a copy on amazon.com and I found one used for like 10$. I am also planning on reading food for the gods by McKenna and also Archaic Revival. Some of the information in these books just boggles my mind, and it makes me think in ways I never have, about things that I love to think about. I love mystical expreiences etc, and I think it will be great to hear what other people have to say about the trips. For me, it is sometimes hard to adequatly describe a trip with language, but I think once I hear other peoples views I will be able to express mine easier. What do you think about food for the Gods, and has anyone read Archaic Revival by McKenna. He talks about human evolution and the mushroom, and how we evolved by taking mushrooms. Lots of information about UFO abductions too, which I think DMT the Spiritual Molucule might have but Im not sure. I cant wait to get some of these books in the mail. I think I am going to order Archaic Revival, Food of the Gods and DMT as soon as I can.

By unico_walker on 23-06-2005, 06:37

There is a site that lists torrents, sort of a torrent spy

and there is a PDF of the book on there for those not able to find it.

By Eirias on 23-06-2005, 11:38

I have read all of McKenna's books, as well as Dr. Rick
Strassman's. They are all good-- McKenna's are fun and
interesting to read, as he has many intersting ideas and is a great
storyteller, but his stuff is a bit less pragmatic/scientific and a bit
more far-fetched. Strassman, being a scientist, is very thorough
and precise in his approach, and while the subject matter is
fascinating, some found his book to be a bit "dry", so to speak.
I personally liked all of the above-- "True Hallucinations" and "The
Invisible Landscape" were my favourites by McKenna, followed by "The
Archaic Revival". I also very much enjoy the work of Jonathan
Ott-- he is absolutely brilliant and the intro to "Pharmacotheon",
called the "Proemium", is possibly the best assessment and critique of
drug prohibition and argument for cognitive liberty ever written.
Also, if you haven't read "Tihkal" and "Pihkal" by Alexander and Ann
Shulgin, you must.

Alex Grey also has two books that are amazing, called "Sacred Mirrors", and "Transfigurations".

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Rep for 1 well done review

Last edited by Alfa; 30-07-2007 at 11:35..

By mithras on 22-09-2005, 11:31

I've had the pleasure of reading Strassman's book and thought it was very interesting i admit parts were a little dry. But i enjoyed the fact that it was thourough and scientific even if it did get slow moving at times. Food of the Gods was a fun fascinating read, if not a little far fetched and loosely factual at times. Does anyone know a good place to order Ott's books? I can't find any copies for less than like $80!!

By Doc Holliday on 28-09-2005, 17:29

~ Yes I'm currently reading The Spirit Molecule, more or less as a reference, for future projects. Yes, Ott's books can be rather expensive which one wereU looking for?~

By mithras on 29-09-2005, 01:21

originally i was looking for Ayahuasca Analogues but seeing as the tables that i was primarily interested in are all over the net i'm more interested in Pharmacotheon. mainly i've just heard great things about it but never any real specifics and whenever i find a copy it's around $85!

By Doc Holliday on 29-09-2005, 01:35

mithras,

Pharmacotheon, it considered by many to be 'THE BOOK', you're probably not going to find it much cheaper, and considering it's status there may not be too many second hand copies. I'd look for an on-line version, I know I've at least seen part of it on-line. BTW, Mr. Ott did a lecture covering the material in Ayahuasca Analogues on cassette through Botanical Preservation Corps.

Doc

#10

By Doc Holliday on 29-09-2005, 01:56

mithras,

I know it's expensive, that's why I haven't bought myself! I've wanted it really bad for at least 6 years. When I think of all the hours I spent just wondering what it would be like to read...now I sound like I'm talking about a woman. Forgive me.

Doc

#11

By Desertfox on 17-02-2006, 06:56

if intrested in ufology at all i strongly suggest reading Angels and Aliens

#12

By Marsofold Platinum member

on 18-02-2006, 02:06

I tried to upload "DMT - The Spirit Molecule" in pdf format to the file archives and it wouldn't take it due to excessive filesize (3.4MB)...

#13

By DrugPhreak on 18-02-2006, 03:14

Can you upload it to Rapideshare? I would really like to read it... thanks.

#14

By psyche on 28-03-2006, 13:33

I'm just reading the Spirit Molecule. I was about to order it to local bookstore but my copy would've propable come all the way from america or something. I was still going to order it but the I just found the copy from the torrents in form of pdf. Now I'm almost halfway through and I find this book really exellent. He is very intelligent and does some good thinking. I have read relatively few books on topic of drugs, but I expected this to be more technical. I was suprisingly easy reading, all about pineal gland and neuropsychology was deald on quite basic lever and all terms were explained well and many times. I really like Strassmans style and logic.

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Rep for 1 excellent review (different thread)

#15

By oz_steve on 18-04-2006, 01:49

DMT The Spirit Molecule - well well well… where to start?

Like the chemical reaction that results in the so-called spirit molecule itself, this book seems to separate out into layers of varying usefulness:

At the top is a clear layer containing the "product": Strassman's excellent reporting of set and setting, the detailed background to the experiments, his descriptions of the experimental conditions, and the content of his subjects’ experiences. This is top-drawer stuff: an excellent description of one of the most important investigations into an hallucinogenic agent this generation.

Next there is a layer containing some re-usable precursors, i.e. Strassman's own scientific, spiritual and cultural biases, which he describes honestly and lucidly, taking considerable risks as a scientist in so doing. This is refreshing, given the reductionist bias of most pharmacological experimentation! If phrases like "Buddhist" and "spiritual journey" offend some people then so be it.

Finally there is a rather murky layer at the bottom that is best thrown away! Strassman's musings on dark matter and parallel universes are just plain kooky and reflect badly on the rest of the book. I say this as a researcher myself with an undergraduate degree in mathematical physics. Strassman must have been on drugs when he wrote those bits, LOL.

But the good parts – the experiments themselves and especially the subjects’ experiences - are amazing. For once Occham’s razor is on the side of the psychonauts, in the sense that the simplest explanation for the quality and consistency of what people see, hear and feel in these experiments is that the experiences have some basis in consensual reality, and that is the conclusion Strassman eventually comes to.

All in all this is a fascinating and compulsive read: I started and finished it in a weekend and immediately went on the internet, searching forlornly for any programs I could join as a subject, LOL.

Seriously, if my friend SWIM could find a group here in the UK that was genuinely exploring the mind expanding aspects of DMT, then he'd be there like a shot. In fact SWIM is going to take the advice provided elsewhere in this forum and start going to New Age fairs, seeking out people who might be doing such things!

This interesting book has had that important effect on SWIM.

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#16

By Sklander on 29-04-2006, 06:59

Amazing book. Dr. Strassman, the author, does a wonderful job of exploring DMT in an unbiased, true way. The book is more of a clinical trial read, with a few stories in between. Dr. Strassman does a great job with the trip reports. He really illustrates them well.

SWIM likes how Dr. Strassman doesn't just sweep the negative aspects of a DMT experience under the rug like so many others. He does follow up visits with all the patients in the study and marks it in the book. Awesome and essential read.

#17

By rodent Gold member

on 22-07-2006, 02:44

We were lucky enough to have Dr. Strassman at our chat years ago... here's a link to the transcript if anyone is interested -

Quote:

Someforum Guest Chat with Rick Strassman (5/5/01)

Eddy Welcome everybody! And welcome to the first Celebrity Guest Chat, if all goes well, we have many others planned for you in the weeks to come. If you want to log this event yourself, go to file, options, logging, automatically log, channels... and strip codes. A log will also be available afterwards. As long as everything doesn't get too hectic, we will leave the channel unmoderated. Please be on your best behavior and maybe we can keep it open all the way through. Hecklers, flamers, and flooders will be permanently banned from the server. Tonights guest is Dr. Rick Strassman. Thanks goes out to pkeffect for contacting him. Please fill us in our distingushed guest pk...

pkeffect Thanks Eddy. At UNM, Dr. Strassman performed clinical research investigating the function of the pineal hormone melatonin in which his research group documented the first known role of melatonin in humans. He also began the first new US government approved and funded clinical research with psychedelic drugs in over twenty years. Before leaving the University in 1995, he attained the rank of tenured Associate Professor of Psychiatry, and received the UNM General Clinical Research Center's Research Scientist Award. Dr. Strassman underwent a four-year personal psychoanalysis in New Mexico between 1986 and 1990. He has published nearly thirty peer-reviewed scientific papers, and has served as a reviewer for several psychiatric research journals. He has been a consultant to the US Food and Drug Administration, National Institute on Drug Abuse, Veteran's Administration Hospitals, Social Security Administration, and other state and local agencies. While living in the Pacific Northwest of the United States for five years, Dr. Strassman worked in community mental health centers for Washington State's Whatcom and Jefferson Counties. He currently lives and practices psychiatry in Taos, New Mexico, and is Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. His website address is http://www.rickstrassman.com He is the author of "DMT the Spirit Molecule", which can be purchased at his website.

pkeffect I would like to welcome Dr. Rick Strassman to the Someforum chat and thank him for accepting my invitation to be here.

pkeffect Dr. Strassman you have the room.

Rick_Strassman Thanks, pkeffect. Let me cut and paste several paragraphs from the introduction to my book, and then we can start the discussion. So, here goes.

Rick_Strassman In 1990, I began the first new human research with psychedelic, or hallucinogenic, drugs in the United States in over 20 years. These studies investigated the effects of N,N-dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, an extremely short-acting and powerful psychedelic. During the project's five years, I administered approximately 400 doses of DMT to 60 human volunteers. This research took place at the University of New Mexico's School of Medicine. The DMT project was founded on cutting edge brain science, especially the psychopharmacology of serotonin. However, my own background powerfully affected how we prepared people for, and supervised, their drug sessions. One of these was a decades-long relationship with a Zen Buddhist training monastery. My book about this work, "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," reviews what we know about psychedelic drugs in general, and DMT in particular. It then traces the DMT research project from its earliest intimations through the maze of committees and review boards to its actual performance. Our research subjects were healthy volunteers. The studies were not intended to be therapeutic, although all of us believed in the potentially beneficial properties of psychedelic drugs. The project generated a wealth of biological and psychological data, much of which I have already published in the scientific literature. On the other hand, I have written nearly nothing about volunteers' stories. I hope these many excerpts from ov Problems inside and outside of the research environment led to the end of these studies in 1995. Despite the difficulties we encountered, I am optimistic about the possible benefits of the controlled use of these drugs. Based upon what we learned in the New Mexico research, I offer a wide-ranging vision for DMT's role in our lives, and conclude by proposing a research agenda and optimal setting for future work with DMT and related It is so important for us to understand consciousness. It is just as important to place psychedelic drugs in general, and DMT in particular, into a personal and cultural matrix where we do the most good, and the least harm. In such a wide open area of inquiry, it is best that we reject no ideas until we actually disprove them. It is in the interest of enlarging the discussion about psychedelic drugs that I've written The Spirit Molecule.

Rick_Strassman OK. Now with that introduction, I'm open to a conversation with the group. And, I'm quite happy to be here tonight!

atreyu Alright, the floor is open

atreyu please try not to step on other peoples toes as they ask and answer questions

camel i have a question

Eddy keep it organized please

camel may i ask a question?

dissident go camel

camel How was the n,n-DMT administered to the subjects, and how large were the doses?

Rick_Strassman We gave the DMT intravenously, after finding that intramuscular injection was too slow relative to what we knew were smoked effects. We couldn't really use the smoked route in a scientific study on a research unit in a hospital. And the doses were 0.05 to 0.4 milligram per kilogram. A 150 lb person weights about 70 kg. Smoked DMT usually gives a full hit at about 50 mg.

pkeffect next question?

Cloudie Is DMT, taken this way, very different from an ayahausca session?

dissident Dr, what in your opinion would the drawbacks be of an 'overdose; of DMT

Rick_Strassman We injected the IV DMT over the space of about 30 seconds. Effects began within 2-3 hearbeats. Peak effects were at 90 - 120 seconds, and started fading at that point. Effects were essentially totally gone by 20-25 minutes. Ayahuasca, on the other hand, is orally taken, and starts at about 20-30 minutes, peaks at 2-3 hours, and is gone by 4-6 hours. DMT is broken down in the gut by an enzyme called MAO, and there's another plant which contains a chemical that prevents DMT breakdown by this enzyme. About an overdose: There's a chapter on our OD'ing two volunteers with 0.6 mg/kg DMT. They couldn't remember the experience. Also DMT raises heart rate and blood pressure, especially' when injected, but our volunteers were quite healthy, and could take a jolt to their heart. Let me address the visuals: There are relatively similar, except for the time course, in IV as opposed to oral or smoked DMT. The thing is that all the DMT gets into your system when given IV, no loss by coughing, so people can probably get to further realms with injected DMT than otherwise. About the LD50: This refers to the dose at which half of the laboratory animals given this dose die. There probably is one for DMT, but I don't know it. It would be an awful lot.

Dissident thank you Dr

Rick_Strassman Go ahead.

rem (in line for a question)

rem yes

rem I would like to ask how does dmt relate to dreaming process

desben bioboy had a question first

Rick_Strassman Bioboy?

bioboy you say in your book you think your subjects gained little from the experience

bioboy Have you thought of studying ayahuasca, which has theraputic and healing uses?

rem as I had found effects of dmt to be quite reminiscent of lucid REM dreaming

Rick_Strassman Since returning to New Mexico, and re-establishing contact with many of the volunteers, they say I gave short shrift, or underestimated, the long-term effects. The more I hear from them, the more I agree. I think their experiences, at the very least, established a baseline of conscious experience that they will for ever retain as a new model and standard. I have thought about studying ayahuasca. But right now, this is only in the thinking phase

rem I would like to ask how does dmt relate to natural dreaming process as I found dmt states to be reminiscent of deep lucid dreaming (I am reffering to ayahuasca)is is endogenous dmt involved in dreaming processes

Rick_Strassman The DMT dreaming connection is very relevant. Pineal function is highest at 3 a.m., and so is dreaming activity. I propose, in the book, that DMT is a sort of spirit gland, with the highest level of precursors and enzymes of any organ in the body. Jace Callaway, in Finland, has proposed a role for pinoline, a beta-carboline, in boosting the effects of naturally released DMT during REM sleep. Along those lines, we *did* notice that many of our volunteers showed rapid eye movements during the peak of the DMT trance. So, it's an extraordinarily relevant relationship.

atreyu methos, you are up

methos What is the relation of DMT to seratonin?

methos I've heard that DMT can be found in human bodies?

Rick_Strassman There are structual and functional relationships. The structural ones are that DMT is produced from conversion of dietary tryptophan, via a few intermediary stages to DMT. That's the simplest connection. Functionally, DMT attaches to, and modifies the function, of many different receptors in the brain for serotonin. However, it's not as simple as that, because many drugs have the same effects on serotonin systems but are not psychedelic. Thus, dopamine, noradrenaline, and other systems probably all add up to the final product of a full psychedelic response.

cham indegenous take ayahuasca when they need it, no for experimental porposes, so the efect is long term, do you consider that makes a difference?

Rick_Strassman Absolutely. Our setting was incredibly grim and austere. The fifth floor of a busy university hospital in the middle of Albuquerque. However, we were generally just interested in knowing what the drug did acutely, right then and there. Longer term effects, while of interest, weren't a priority within the actual experiment, although they clearly were of interest to me, personally. I think that the intent, and the environment with which people take DMT and any other psychedelic, have as much effect on long-term benefit as any other factor. That's why I'm so impressed with some of the indigenous people's use of ayahuasca. Not to mention the "plant energy" aspect.

Robin_Bill Having obtained government approval for basic research with human subjects, do you foresee government approval for therapeutic research with tryptamine entheogens possibly opening up in the near future?

Rick_Strassman Other psychedelics have been studied since I stopped in 1995 ketamine, MDMA, and a little bit of ibogaine work that ended some years back. The only one with an eye on therapy was the ibogaine study, which stopped before it could attain full doses in their volunteers. There's a psilocybin study in the works, maybe even starting, at the University of AZ in Tucson, which will give psilo to patients with severe obsessive compulsive disorder in an attempt to replicate and expand "field" reports of people with OCD getting at least temporarily better, after mushrooms. This study is modeled on a brain-chemistry, rather than a psychological model. That is, it's not the trip, but the serotonin effects that are beneficial. But, it's a start. There's some talk of an LSD study at Harvard with the terminally ill. And there's a group in Baltimore that may be close to starting an LSD study for people with serious drug abuse problems.

Xenonpill Dr. Strassman, do you have any thoughts on Terrence Mckenna's eschatology theories?

Rick_Strassman Well, which ones are you referring to??

Xenonpill The proposed temporal singularity in the year 2012, due to an "ingression of novelty"?

Rick_Strassman This is a pretty far out idea, and one for which there's been more smoke than heat expressed. Nevertheless, let me add my twist to it. There's enzymes in all our bodies that make DMT. Wouldn't it be something if by some feat of genetic engineering, let's say DNA spliced into a common cold virus, that could get around the world in a few years, containing something that turned on all our DMT producing enzymes at the same time, based upon some sort of confluence of cosmological factors. Now, that would be the end of history.

tortoise tee he

methos good question Xenon

alien so the government will allow tests on serious drug abusers, the terminally ill, and those with severe OCD. Do you see a trend here? Why not test LSD and psycilocybin on the normal and healthy, as you did with DMT? What's the logic behind this?

IES Rick_Strassman- Are you familiar with Bufotenine and its similarities between DMT? I have a 200mg vial of it (base), and was wondering in your opinion, if it's something worth exploring?

Rick_Strassman I'll address alien first. There's nothing strictly speaking, preventing studies that focu on enhancing normal function. It's jsut that it's easier for clinical research psychiatrists to first focus on pathology, rather than normal function. It's more of what research psychiatrists are used to, there's funding mechanisms in place, and so on.

alien well, that makes sense

Rick_Strassman About bufotenine, I don't know much about it. It's quite similar to serotonin and DMT structurally. Older animal studies suggest it needs to be directly injected into the brain to work, as it's broken down so fast in the bloodstream. Jonathan Ott, however, has been saying it is active by less "heroic" routes of administration, although I'm not current on his latest comments about this.

IES Do dopamine, serotonin, and epinephrins also need to be directly injected into the brain?

Rick_Strassman And, of course, I can't recommend anybody take anything!

IES Oh. sorry for asking such an absurd question.

Rick_Strassman Yes, neurotransmitters are not active in the brain if there are administered orally or by injection into the blood stream.

piersgib2 dr strassman - in peru i was eventually given yachay by an
ayahuasquero...(phlegm+animal)..during an ayahuasca dieta..this is on the edge of knowledge for me - anything i've missed in new work? yachay is kept in chest and so are hekuli (via dmtsnuff)..any ideas?

Rick_Strassman There's not a lot of research on ayahuasca in the medical literature. Charlie Grob, Dennis McKenna, and Jace Callaway studied a group of ayahuasca users in Brazil a few years ago, and it seemed quite safe, and those who used it regularly were healthy physically, and more healthy mentally than their "control" group who didn't use the tea.

JonHash Dr strassman did you study the connection of dmt to melatonin, biorythms and other effects of the latter ? if so what have you conjured

JonHash or is there a connection ?

Rick_Strassman Strangely enough, the only hormone that didn't rise in response to a big dose of DMT was melatonin. Everything else went up, including beta-endorphins, vasopressing, cortisol, prolactin, you name it. This was surprising, but then I thought about how important it is that the pineal be protected from bumps off its equilibriu. We were thinking of comparing DMT effects when given in the a.m. vs p.m. but didn't get around to it. Certainly effects in the morning, when we gave it, were robust enough.

rem 1) recently in a court trial of an ayahuasca church located in netherlands many scientists and MD's testified that communal/spiritual use of ayahuasca is safe and can be beneficial-what is your opinion on that.

rem: 2) This is not an easy question to answer , but in light of the dmt /rem sleep connection as well as meditative/spiritual states connection can one place some merit and realness in realities generated by dmt .. is it all a base pipe dream or spiritual truth and a siginificant part of our life and existance

Rick_Strassman There's lots in your questions. I think in the proper setting, DMT in ayahuasca can be helpful. Regarding the realities, I think this is hard to know. I propose, in my book, that DMT changes the receiving properties of consciousness, by changing the chemistry of the brain. And in doing so, allows consciousness access to realms, perhaps dark matter, or parallel universes, which exist right here and now, but are otherwise impossible to see. There is some merit in thinking along these lines, but I think at our current level of moral and ethical development, it's probably more important to learn what we can from the states themselves, rather than speculating too awfully much on where they come from.

JonHash as we see from the discussion here we encounter areas as alter realities and question of ethics

JonHash and other grounds of phiosophy

JonHash could you tell us about your experience and thoughts ?

JonHash un charted water in the medical science

Rick_Strassman One of the problems with all of science, even the science of extraordinary states such as those elicited by DMT, return to "If so, so what?" which is also the title of one of the book's chapters. We can be clever, but can we be kind? We can travel to distant places, but are we any better off? Slippery stuff!

camel Dr, when you checked back with the subjects long after their DMT sessions, did any of them make claims to the session as being a "life-changing experience"? Or in some way did the administered dose of DMT change their outlook on life? And were there any problems with the subjects' day-to-day functioning after the DMT experiences?

Rick_Strassman Our volunteers were quite experienced with psychedelics already, although not many of them had used DMT before. Even so, nearly all of our volunteers believed that their first high dose of IV DMT was the most intense experience of their lives. Rick_Stras: For some these were perspective-, rather than life-, changing experiences. No one really undertook many significant changes in their lives. Some people had bad trips, but few if any had lingering bad effects. One of our overdose volunteers, at the 0.6 mg/kg dose, had panic attacks for a few months after his session, but went through the study quite well at the lower dose, and refers to his original OD as ultimately beneficial in terms of altering his outlook on reality and his ability to manage it. His panic attacks resolved on their own, and he's had no recurrence.

Cloudie my question is about blood pressure medicine. Can you take this with hausca, a beta blocker

Rick_Strassman Well, I can't really give medical advise. But, we did do a study using pindolol, a beta-blocker, which is sometimes used for high blood pressure. It actually ended up magnifying the effects of DMT by a factor of 2-3 times. The thing about most beta-blockers is that they also block one of the serotonin receptors, called the "1A" site. Most tryptamines activate this site, which actually turns out to be an "inhibitory" site. That is, if you block an inhibitory site, which the 1A site is, then effects of DMT and other psychedelics are more powerful. We got into some dicey territory with pindolol.

rlb 1) As a professional, i have been drawn to personally explore all the major and minor entheogens from low to high dose ranges in myself, including shulgin's major phenethylamine/tryptamine tweaks (4-ho-mipt, 4-ho-det, etc)...have you first hand personal experience with these materials? 2) What is your take on the transformative potential of this type of work?

Rick_Strassman I never talk about my own drug use or non-use.

rlb then go for 2?

Rick_Strassman However, about Sasha's compounds, they are quite interesting, and deserve more exploration. However, my feeling is that with the "old regulars," such as LSD, DMT, psilocybin, mescaline, we have such a wide range of possible responses from them, that we might be better served focusing on ones we know are safe before branching out into ones about which we know so litle.

ouro do you think dmt causes permanent brain change?

Rick_Strassman There's no animal data to support brain damage from DMT, and people have been trying to find brain damage for years.

JonHash Dr. as a psychiatrist, you mentioned people showed REM while under the effect of DMT, now there is a trauma therapy based on inducing REM, and LSD was used to treat holocaust surviours as Aba Covner by a famous psychiatrist which i dont know his name, do yo think dmt has any potential in this field of post traumatic disorders therapy ?

JonHash do you have any intrest in this field ?

Rick_Strassman Not a single high dose of DMT probably. However, we did give big doses every half-hour four times in a morning, which has incredibly fascinating effects in terms of people being able to do psychological work in this way. I think it's better than ayahuasca, in as much as you can process in a normal state, for 5-10 minutes, before going back in. I think the psychiatrist was Jan Baastians in Holland, who used LSD in holocaust and other catastrophes survivors, and had some good results, but he never published them, nor did he really submit his therapy to "traditional" experimental design strictures--which I don't think he ever would have tolerated doing.

JonHash have you studied any anandemide receptor connection though not probable ? ye you are correct

Rick_Strassman No, I've not looked at anandamide in humans. Just DMT and psilocybin.

camel Doctor... Do you know of any lasting long-term side effects of the various tryptamine hallucinegens (especially psilocybin, LSD, and DMT) that would effects day-to-day behavior (such as nonsensical outbursts, etc.) And could over-exposure to these substances "corrode" the thinking process in any way?

Rick_Strassman I think if people are a little unbalanced or unsteady in the first place, using these powerful mind-altering drugs isn't a good idea. And if they are getting a bit unbalanced from using them, I suggest taking a break. Maybe there's other ways to answer the questions that are coming up for that person, which don't involved psychedelics.

mrnobody what do you make of the fact that dmt is so unique caompared to other compiounds but so similair to salvia

Rick_Strassman Actually, I don't find DMT and salvinorin A to be all that similar. Probably, DMT is more like the other major tryptamines, like LSD and psilocybin. Salvinorin A, at least from what I've heard, is absolutely weird, and there's not a lot of overlap between the effects of the two drugs. And, Salvinorin A doesn't bind to any receptors that we now know about?

mrnobody have you considerd studying salvia while it is still legal

Rick_Strassman A salvia study? Maybe. But I'd need to go through all the proper channels for such a study, and that might be a real headache.

JonHash i would just like to note that i think that any hallucinogen has a permenant effect due to the memory of the experience which could not be experienced otherwise but after an experience is an integral part of the brain as you can recall it.

Rick_Strassman Well, it's an integral part of your life, and your memories, which are mediated by the brain.

Dissident in 'street lore' dealing with psychedelics, it is said that you 'cannot get drunk' while 'tripping'...do you have any thoughts on alcohol use concurrent to psychedelic use?

Rick_Strassman People seem to be able to drink a lot under the influence of psychedelics, probably because of the generally stimulating effects of psychedelics. However, this probably wouldn't affect the lethal dose of alcohol, although it may affect the lower level effects of alchol. I don't recommend drinking alcohol with psychedelics.

pkeffect What is the relation between 5MEOnnDMT to DMT in the chemical processes in the brain?

Rick_Strasssman They are quite similar from a pharmacology point of view. Clearly, though, the effects differ. So, it's a statement regarding how crude our understanding is of how these drugs work.

rlb a foaf used to have periodic severe migraine episodes until she did her first high dose of psilocybin - she no longer has intense headaches, though mild migraine symptomatology (tense head/neck muscles, low grade pain) remains...any idea of the possible mechanism?

Rick_Strassman Many of the new drugs for migraine, such as Imitrex, affect specific serotonin receptors, especially the "1D" site. Tryptamines do bind to those sites, although not as tightly as to other ones.

rlb this seemed to be a permanent change following one exposure...

Rick_Strassman It's certainly conceivable that psychedelics could modify brain function in such a way as to change headaches. Also, there's the "trauma" aspect to things. People often doubt that one big trip can heal long-standing problems, but then again, one bad experience (a terrible accident, let's say) can permanently affect oneself. Also, there's some data in animals that antidepressants can cause their chemical effects after only a single dose. That may also relate to one psychedelic trip changing headache frequency permanently, after only one time.

pkeffect You said that DMT is released in the developing fetus at the 49th day, do you believe that the child when born is in a "dream state" even when awake because of the amount of tryptamines in the brain?

Rick_Strassman This is only a theory, but one I believe is supported by lots of circumstantial evidence. I do think it's highly likely that both the mother and newborn are in a highly psychedelicized state, and there's lots of reason to believe this is mediated by DMT in both the mother and newborn. The issue of DMT and dreams also takes on very weird implications when you realize that DMT is actively transported into the brain. This indicates the brain "needs" DMT for some reason,' as it's expending precious energy to get in across the incredibly tight defense system known as the blood brain barrier. This suggests DMT is some kind of "reality thermostat." Too little and the world gets dull, flat, and lifeless--too much and things get very bizarre.

JonHash DMT being a very basic tryptamine binds to specific HT5 sites or does he "floods" them all ?

Rick_Strassman It's relatively specific, but there are new serotonin sites discovered every few months, so I'm sure some of them don't bind DMT very tightly.

weirdo what are your thoughts on psycedelics becoming a sort of crutch in personal and spiritual work?

Rick_Strassman That's a real hazard, and I'm glad you raise it. People can start thinking the only way they can "know" or "understand" things is while tripping. There's so much work that needs to be done on testing, applying, and refining the insights gained on only one single big trip, that I can see tripping only every few years and doing fine with that.

Xenonpill In conversations with experienced meditators, it seems apparent that the 5-MeO-DMT experience more closely resembles samadhi than that of NNDMT. I see this as an indication that 5-MeO-DMT may be a better candidate for a "Spirit-molecule" do you have any thoughts on this?

Rick_Strassman I've got a good friend who continually raises this issue with me. Clearly, both compounds exist in the brain. Clearly both compounds are highly psychedelic. I think probably both are released during similar circumstances. One of the reasons I chose DMT was that it had been given in previously published human studies, and I believed it would be less difficult to obtain permission to use it, as opposed to 5-MeO. I am very interested in 5-MeO, and believe it ought to be studied more. But, the logistics, because there are no published human data on it, will be more difficult.

rem Function of endogenous dmt is still uncertain - what would happen to a human that would lets say had a genetic defect that prohibited him/her from producing endogenous dmt ? What could be the ramifications of such "dmt deficiency" ?

Rick_Strassman I've raised some of the possiblities of endogenous DMT excess already, here and in the book. However, an endogenous defect isn't something I've thought much about. Many of the drugs that are used to treat psychosis, block the same receptors that DMT activates, and if a "normal" person takes these "anti-psychotic" drugs, the world is very flat, dull, and lifeless. Perhaps people with depression have very low levels. That would be an interesting, and easy to do, study, although you'd need some pretty high tech measuring equipment.

JRL Is anyone currently doing research on psychedelic therapy for addiction for example, with ibogaine?

Rick_Strasssman Deborah Mash, of the University of Florida in Miami, has a ibogaine program on St. Kitts in the Caribean, for people with drug abuse problems. There's nothing happening above-board in the US as far as I know. There may be also some more or less underground work with it in Europe, although I'm not currently familiar with where that might be.
elfstone there definitely is...

Rick_Strassman There's a group called NDA International, Staten Island NY, which is clearing house for ibogaine work. As I mentioned earlier, there's a Baltimore group poised to start an LSD study for drug addicts. Evgeny Krupitsky in St. Petersburg Russia has loads of experience using ketamine for alcoholics and heroin addicts. He's got some good results, too.

Rick_Strasssman Go ahead.

JonHash have you encountered binding of dmt to any catecholamines sites ? and also could you please share with us the grounds of your melatonin reasearch

Rick_Strassman There are some pretty old dopamine and norepinephrine data with DMT, in terms of binding sites being dinged, and/or release of dopamine and norepi occurring through DMT. Serotonin has been the major player, though ,for the last 20 years. The melatonin work involved all night suppression with bright light (while folks were awake) and then re-infusing it in physiological amounts. In this manner, we found that melatonin was crucial to the 3 a.m. dip in core body temperature that is noted in all humans.

camel Doctor: Is it possible for a human to release more amounts of endogeneous DMT through any sort of training (such as meditation, etc)?

Rick_Strassman Probably, although that's not been looked at. Mostly people look at brain metabolism by using brain waves, or scanning technology. I propose in the book that meditation can likely raise endogenous DMT levels, as might massive stress (birth, death, near-death), by means of pineal gland activation.

Byrd This idea of consciousness changing so as to "see" dark matter etc, is interesting, do all mammals have this chemical in the brain? I see how aquantum theory could affect this--not a new idea, but maybe this is why there are reports of esp?

Rick_Strassman All animals studied to date have DMT in their bodies: brain, liver, lung, spinal fluid, blood, urine. Many plants, too, as you know. In dark matter, the laws of physics are different than those of this universe, so all bets are off about "locality." There's some stuff out there on "non-locality," but I plead ignorance of the field. By the way, the meditation link is interesting. Many people ask me, "Well, can't you just get there with meditation?" And I usually answer, "Unlikely."

elfstone There is a Thai Taoist teacher, Namtak Chia, who is leading retreats in total darkness for 2 weeks, claiming that endogenous DMT levels are raised by this technique - is there any data you are aware of that would reasonably lead to hypothesizing this as a possibility?

Rick_Strassman I'm familiar with this, and have visited his website. I think it's possible, but not by the biochemistry he suggests. Nevertheless, all studies show that pineal function accelerates rapidly in total darkness, and in animals, pineal glands get very very big in total darkness. If there is a role of the pineal in forming endogenous DMT, this certainly would hold some water.

earth I apologize for not having gotten very far in your book yet, but I was wondering if you have worked out in your own mind how or whether any of the various entheogens you're familiar with would be used in a therapeutic context, what problems you think they might best be used to work with, what protocols, etc?

Rick_Strassman Big question. I think these drugs can stimulate new ideas, new insights, help dredge up forgotten memories, allow us to access feelings, enhance our suggestibility. All those are common factors in any successful psychotherapy. So there's merit in using them to enhance everyday psychotherapy. They also seem to elicit spiritual effects in people, so there's a range of models for that kind of work, especially the 12-step programs which involve "bottoming out" as helping draw out a transformative spiritual experience. Similarly with the dying--one could conceive of a breakthrough occurring involving spiritual elements making the transition easier--but we also must remember that the dying have rights, and if there is a bad trip, there's little time to repair it. I could go on with that for quite awhile, but will let the next question come up.

mrnobody what is your take on terrence mckenna and his experiences with DMT (and other tryptamines)? have you had any indication that these compounds are telling that the end of time is coming and we better be prepared?

Rick_Strassman I loved Terence, and miss his passing tremendously. I think it's pretty easy on a high dose of DMT to experience the end of a lot of things, let alone the end of time. Certainly, having practice giving up body, self, time, space has some appeal to some people, for any number of reasons.

rem In light of your dmt/melatonin research, is working the proverbial "graveyard shift" unhealthy due to the "3 a.m. peak" cycle interruption and off beat light reception patterns ? (in other words - is doing non-day work damaging to one's health)

Rick_Strassman About the shift-work question: It's not that healthy to keep your pineal dampened down all the time. However, if you sleep during the day (in the dark), for a long enough time, pineal function can shift by 12 hours and you can resume normal circadian function, although out of sync with the rest of us.

JonHash have you monitored metabolits in your research are there any specific ones for DMT ?

Rick_Strassman I've not, but there are some older human data, especially by Stephen Szara at NIDA, who found #-IAAA I mean, 3-IAA, a common metabolite. Also there's an N-oxide of DMT.

Eddy Dr. Strassman, if you have time to stay a bit longer, I'd like to let everyone just fire questions away and you pick the ones you'd like to answer for a few minutes. Then we'll call it an evening. Is that alright with you?

atreyu ok cham, you are up

atreyu and then it will be free-for-all

Rick_Strassman Rick_Strassman: I appreciate your moderating so well.

atreyu I guess cham isn't asking a question
atreyu as he/she just left
atreyu so I guess we will open the floor up
atreyu and thanks for the compliment

Eddy Ok, go nuts everyone, and be sure to check out Dr. Strassmans website and grab his book!
Eddy atreyu: http://www.rickstrassman.com/

mu-ur did you find in your melatonin studies, that it was also actively transported across the blood-brain barrier

dissident what do you think of psychoactive chemicals found in animals, and where would you suggest I go to look up information on this subject?
weirdo what are your ideas on DMT experiences involving contact with extraterestrials?

desben What's it like? (DMT)

Rick_Strassman Melatonin probably diffuses across the blood-brain barrier. And, we didn't look at that in our melatonin study.

rem Is melatonin use in moderate dosage range safe ? what is the moderate dosage range ? is using melationin to boost REm sleep strength a health risk?

Rick_Strassman The most commonly known animal psychoactive is toad venom from Bufo alvarius. There's lots out there. Check out erowid.org
chatter1 i want to thank the spirit plant people for the invatation to ayahuasca forums
earth ;]

Rick_Strassman DMT may change consciousness so radically as to allow access to dark matter or parallel universes.

Kemp Thank you soo much for speaking with us, Dr. Straussman!

dissident I heard something about certain fish, salamamders, and even centipedes

Rick_Strassman Since 95% or more of the mass of the universe if "dark," there's no reason not to expect that it's inhabited.

pkeffect All are welcome and thanks for being here

Rick_Strassman Looks like people are winding down. I'll take 5 more questions, and then call it a night.
earth have you read jeremy narby's book or heard his spiel? do you have any opinions on the 'direct knowledge' concept he describes? like what you're saying about the ability to experience dark-matter

Rick_Strassman I've read Jeremy's book, but haven't really studied it. So, I can't really comment on his "direct knowledge" ideas. Sorry.

Byrd Does hausca interact badly with they stuff they give folk with drawing from opiates?
mu-ur do you have any plans for more studies involving dmt or other psychoactives in the future?

Rick_Strassman There is some information on opiate-DMT interactions, but it's a little uncertain. I'd certainly

weirdo are there any studies on DMT and pi abilities?

Rick_Strassman try and keep it simple when it comes to using one drug at a time.
Rick_Strassman I have no immediate plans for more studies, but now that I'm back in New Mexico, my true home,

rem Dr. Strassman - do you have any upcoming public speaking engagements in New York City ?

pkeffect you mean the pkeffect weirdo?

Rick_Strassman I am exploring what might be possible. It's important that I not make the same mistakes that occurred in the first stages of my research. There are stories of ayahuasca and PSI abounding everywhere. But, no "real" studies showing

weirdo i mean psi abilities like telepathy

Rick_Strassman whether or not DMT enhances those abilities.
Byrd I think it enhances esp with animals.

atreyu ok, that was 5 questions

Rick_Strassman I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be hard to come up with "hard" data in humans.

atreyu I'm curious about the role of DMT in fetal development; how did you come up with 49 days, and what is the significance of that, if any.
atreyu (and I apoligize if this has already been asked)

Rick_Strassman The pineal and the gonads are first seen in human fetuses at 49 days. That's also the time that's supposed to elapse, based on Tibetan Buddhist thinking, between the death of one person, and their incarnation in the next human life. Sort of a strange coincidence, and got me looking for what happens in the fetus at 49 days. Bingo--there's the pineal and the sexual apparatus first appearing. Is it a coincidence?
chatter1 how about senseory dep tanks and dmt

rem doubtful

atreyu there are no coincidences

methos sensory dep tanks are great

Rick_Strassman My step-daughter was conceived on mushrooms, and she looks a little like one. And she's brilliant, beautiful and talented. So, go figure!

mu-ur dr. strassman, im curious as to if you have any ideas about how spontaneous dmt emissions, such as with alien abductions or other such instances might occur

Rick_Strassman I'm sure people have used DMT in the tank. I don't know of anyone though, first hand.
Rick_Strassman Well, the DMT-being-contact connection I go into in great length in the book. I think it's possible that spontaneous DMT release is involved in these experiences--some people may be especially prone to forming DMT, and there may be places (high magnetic fields) that elicit DMT release.

cham these unknown "entities "seen under ayahuasca or dmt effects are "endogenous" for you?

pkeffect one more question please Dr. Strassman, What of the matter of new information being accessed in a DMT state? ie.. entities that try to teach

Rick_Strassman Yes, I know. What to make of that? Is it so unusual to consider?

roach Doc why do people have DMT in us?

rem I would like to summarise that questionare the dmt "teachers" modalities of our minds under the chemical or ar they real outisde force

Rick_Strassman Because it needs to be there, just like silicon needs to be in a computer chip. It's there for a purpose, a function, that only it can serve. In this case, it provides our brain/consciousness access to perceptions that are otherwise inaccessible.

eros the recent article in newsweek discussed the areas of the brain active during 'religious' experience--any idea if studies are planned for brain imaging while on dmt?

Rick_Strassman The scanning studies I don't know about what's new or planned. No-one's giving DMT in the US, now, in any case.
Rick_Strassman Are the "teachers" or "beings" real? Well, they seem to be!

pkeffect

Rick_Strassman What if they are? What if they aren't? I think as Terence used to say, "Barter with them. See what they've got to offer." And I'd expand that my asking them "Who is your God?"

atreyu or if they have one, for that matter

Rick_Strassman For that matter!

dissident Doc you are blowing my mind
_________________
...and as if from the inception of time itself I realized I was and had been for sometime, elsewhere, elsewhen or somehow, quite seriously, otherwise...

And yes, the book is an awesome read!!!

DO NOT POST LINKS TO OTHER FORUMS.
You can copy/paste the material, though. That would be fine.
Ooops! sorry bout the linky!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Fantastically useful
	loved the book, liked the interview too. Thanx

Last edited by Alfa; 22-07-2006 at 22:16..

#18

By Bajeda on 31-07-2006, 04:18

Well after looking at the pdf posted I decided to buy the book and try it out. I have just started so I will post my thoughts later when I finish the book.

It seems that it has gone down in price since some of the original posts above. I purchased it off amazon for like twelve dollars. Very affordable, so if you are interested in this stuff you should pick it up.

More comments to come.

#19

By Sweet_Shadow on 31-07-2006, 21:07

I find it a very interesting book. Especially the latter part of the book when Strassman describes the subjects' experiences. I was amazed when I read about the entities they encountered. These stories changed my mind about using DMT. I think I wouldn't be able to handle it, although most encounters are considered beautiful.

#20

By rodent Gold member

on 01-08-2006, 03:47

Again I'll say the book is an excellent read especially the user accounts. Having Dr. Strassman at that chat someone of course asked him about his DMT experience (if I recall correctly) and he replied stating that he doesn't discuss his "drug use". He didn't say that he hadn't used it before though

I did hear a rumor sometime after the chat that the last user account in the book was acctually the good Dr.'s experience!!!

Quote:

A thirty-four-year-old married psychologist, Saul was wiry and energetic,
with a wry sense of humor and an intense gaze. He had taken psychedelics
about forty times and had been practicing meditation for nearly twenty
years.

You decide

#21

By Bajeda on 02-08-2006, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodent

I did hear a rumor sometime after the chat that the last user account in the book was acctually the good Dr.'s experience!!!

You decide

lol, I just read that last chapter and I agree. It does seem to have a bit of a "swim" quality to it.

#22

By VincentVan Platinum member

on 04-08-2006, 02:17

For all those who found Strassman´s book interesting a must read is Graham Hancock´s last book called "Supernatural" which ,by the way includes a long and illuminating interview to Strassman by the author.
Hancock starts from Strassman´s work and David Lewis-Williams "Neuropsychological theory" of rock and cave art ( which notwithstanding its name is now the most accepted theory in its field) and takes them to entirely new levels.
Judging by your previous posts you gonna like it.

VV.

#23

By freemynd on 04-08-2006, 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentVan

On that note....a MUST SEE interview with Hancock can be found here:

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com...s/ghancock.mov

His experiences with ayahuasca. IT'S GREAT!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for the tip. You´re an informative monkey

#24

By rodent Gold member

on 08-08-2006, 15:36

Yeah, I ran across Supernatural in the book review section of this site (think Alpha posted it). Tried to find it at the local Barnes & Noble but, it won't be instock till next reprint in sept they said. Looks good though!

Thanks for that link HotMonkeyAC!
Good stuff

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