yo, Could you make heroin from the morphine you get from the doctor???

[Jlspence]

I don't want to make it, i just wondered if you could, I know you can make heroin from real opium, but could one make heroin from the same morphine you get from a doctors script pad?????

I have always wondered about that, it would be so simple if you could???



Thanks
Jhttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/ima...eys/yes-no.gif

[myfavoriteaccident88]

short answer, yes, but ud have to get some acetic anhydride

[razorwiredildo]

there is a thread on this in the chemistry section. Also in the future, remember to use swim (someone who isn't me)
and welcome to the forum.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36554

[samuraigecko]

Yes it is possible. Acetic andrahyde is used to acetylate molecular sites 3 and 6 in the Morphine molecule and therefor making DiacetylMorphine. (DUAL ACETYLATED MORPHINE) which is Heroin. This is actually still used in hospitals but only for ER situations where INSTANT pain relief is needed urgently.

One can use acetic acid to make either 3MAM or 6MAM, with 3MAM being harder to make because site 6 will actually bond alot easier than site 3 and it is also hard to specifically target only one site when acetylating. (MAM = MonoacetylMorphine) 6MAM is actually stronger than Heroin and is used in some countries in the ER as opposed to 3-6DAM (DiacetylMorphine - pure heroin).

Hope this has cleared a few things up.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Informative.

[Pondlife]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One can use acetic acid to make either 3MAM or 6MAM, with 3MAM being harder to make because site 6 will actually bond alot easier than site 3 and it is also hard to specifically target only one site when acetylating. (MAM = MonoacetylMorphine) 6MAM is actually stronger than Heroin and is used in some countries in the ER as opposed to 3-6DAM (DiacetylMorphine - pure heroin)

Interesting to hear about 6-MAM. Given that it's stronger than heroin and can be produced using acetic acid rather than anhydride, I wonder why it's not common. In fact, this is the first time that I've heard of 6-MAM.

This wikipedia entry supports what's been said about MAM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoacetylmorphine

It also talks about needing to use a "special catalyst" for the acetylation. Perhaps this is difficult to obtain.

[samuraigecko]

Yes, DiacetylMorphine is no longer used in ER situations where IMMEDIATE pain relief is needed because MonoacetylMorphine has been well tested and shown to be more effective (this has only happened within the past few years, SWIM has the inside track on this information but cannot give up his source other than he knows someone in the industry).

[NOTE: this was meant to read "no longer used in America for ER situations" , Other countries still do use DiacetylMorphine in ER situations. These places include England, Australia, Some South East Asian countries and a lot of european countries. Sorry for the confusion.]

Doctors and nurses will not tell SWIyou this because they do not want others knowing it but it is easily researchable data such as the wiki link provided by another above.

It is not an easy thing to acetylate Morphine sulphate. One cannot simply throw the two together and expect to have 3-6DAM. There is a procedure which must be followed to do this and it outlined many times in the opiate chemistry threads.

Hope this has been of help

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Yes, DiacetylMorphine is no longer used in ER situations where IMMEDIATE pain relief is needed because MonoacetylMorphine has been well tested and shown to be more effective (this has only happened within the past few years, SWIM has the inside track on this information but cannot give up his source other than he knows someone in the industry).

Doctors and nurses will not tell SWIyou this because they do not want others knowing it but it is easily researchable data such as the wiki link provided by another above.

Yeah? What country?

IF this is true (SWIM can't find any info?) it's probably to avoid the stigma associated with diamorphine(which people can label as "heroin") whilst still producing an effect of similar strength & water solubility to diamorphine (rather than it being superior?)

[Psych0naut]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

[NOTE: this was meant to read "no longer used in America for ER situations" , Other countries still do use DiacetylMorphine in ER situations. These places include England, Australia, Some South East Asian countries and a lot of european countries. Sorry for the confusion.]

Can you list which European countries backed up with proof? I doubt diacetylmorphine is available as medicine in Germany, Belgium, France, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland etc. It isn't available in the Netherlands as pharmaceutical, it is as drug for heavilly addicted junkies at a few methadone clinics, but not on prescription or even in hospital settings.

[heroin_ed]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Yes it is possible. Acetic andrahyde is used to acetylate molecular sites 3 and 6 in the Morphine molecule and therefor making DiacetylMorphine. (DUAL ACETYLATED MORPHINE) which is Heroin. This is actually still used in hospitals but only for ER situations where INSTANT pain relief is needed urgently.

One can use acetic acid to make either 3MAM or 6MAM, with 3MAM being harder to make because site 6 will actually bond alot easier than site 3 and it is also hard to specifically target only one site when acetylating. (MAM = MonoacetylMorphine) 6MAM is actually stronger than Heroin and is used in some countries in the ER as opposed to 3-6DAM (DiacetylMorphine - pure heroin).

Hope this has cleared a few things up.

Heroin is a schedule I drug in the U.S. which means it has NO medical usage (according to the FDA at least). The UK, however, just recently approved diacetylmorphine HCI for injections for fast pain relief.

[Jlspence]

[QUOTE=Jlspence;357662]I don't want to make it, i just wondered if you could, I know you can make heroin from real opium, but could one make heroin from the same morphine you get from a doctors script pad?????

I have always wondered about that, it would be so simple if you could???

also, siwm lives in the US, so they don't have heroin for pain here, I know they have it in the Uk though.

Is siwm is has pain and is on methadone, but siwm hate it!!! it make you tired all the all time, no great feeling with that, also going to bathroom sucks!!

anybody who think methadone is fun it really stupid, and has not been on it long enough!!

I take it for pain, siwm did get addicted to other pain med for a time, but am fine now, anybody who think you can't beat the dragon is wrong, it poss its just not easy.

siwm would not even be on pain meds if it was not for siwm pain, siwm have a crazy bladder illness, that(women mainly get) Its fucking as painful as cancer or worse!!!

You guys who don't have pain are very lucky, siwm as almost took his life with this crap!

Siwm wanted to learn chemistry and is a biology student, is 30 to late to start learning chemistry??

Siwm hope not??

Thank to every one at this board take care and try out of trobble

Thanks

[Dark_Man_Of_Peace]

acetic anhydride is on the dea's watch list.

[Paracelsus]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

(DUAL ACETYLATED MORPHINE) which is Heroin. This is actually still used in hospitals but only for ER situations where INSTANT pain relief is needed urgently.

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Yes, DiacetylMorphine is no longer used in ER situations where IMMEDIATE pain relief is needed

Huh?

MonoacetylMorphine has been well tested and shown to be more effective (this has only happened within the past few years, SWIM has the inside track on this information but cannot give up his source other than he knows someone in the industry).

Doctors and nurses will not tell SWIyou this because they do not want others knowing it but it is easily researchable data such as the wiki link provided by another above.

The wikipedia article doesn't cover much about research and nothing about use of 6-acetylmorphine. If it would be common knowledge in the medical field as you suggest, there would be many peer-reviewed papers available. And this is not "easily researchable", as 99% of all search results deal with detection methods and such (6-MAM is THE marker of heroin use) and not with 6-MAM a therapeutical drug. My question is, do you have any published information that 6-acetylmorphine is more potent than heroin (on animals/humans, not on cell cultures) and used in clinical practice?

[myfavoriteaccident88]

omg im so sorry i posted anything about this a long time ago... everything thinks that 6-mam or 3-mam can be made with acetic acid.. and thats just NOT true, to make anything good u NEED ACETIC ANHYDRIDE. Or to make 6-mam u need glacial acetic acid AND A CATALYST! which no one here knows what that is, but im sure people will continue to mistakingly post about making 6-mam with acetic acid.

[samuraigecko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by samuraigecko
(DUAL ACETYLATED MORPHINE) which is Heroin. This is actually still used in hospitals but only for ER situations where INSTANT pain relief is needed urgently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samuraigecko
Yes, DiacetylMorphine is no longer used in ER situations where IMMEDIATE pain relief is needed

Huh?

was referring to different countries, sorry about the confusion. One should have stated that. When One mentioned that it is no longer used in ER situations one was meaning America only, though it previously was being used not long back.

As one mentioned (and one does not want to cause any argument over this) One knows that the mono is used in America now because of said "inside track" it is also being used in other countries also. It is not as yet "common knowledge" in the industry and one never implied that (or meant to imply that, sorry if it came across that way.)

A lot of the time things like this are kept as quiet as possible until years later. Perhaps at one point one may be reading a paper written about such a thing.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by myfavoriteaccident88

omg im so sorry i posted anything about this a long time ago... everything thinks that 6-mam or 3-mam can be made with acetic acid.. and thats just NOT true, to make anything good u NEED ACETIC ANHYDRIDE.

Or to make 6-mam u need glacial acetic acid AND A CATALYST!

which no one here knows what that is, but im sure people will continue to mistakingly post about making 6-mam with acetic acid.

How can one say "mistakingly post about making 6MAM with acetic acid" when SWIyou stated the exact same just above in the same sentence? (although in a different manner)

6MAM can be made with acetic acid and a catalyst. The reason for the catalyst is because it is not easy to target a specific molecule site and a catalyst is needed to do just this (in this case molecular site 6 in morphine). The catalyst is only used to facilitate acetylation of the 6-position.

3MAM is much more difficult to make than 6MAM (Acetic Andrahyde is needed for this one believes as acetic acid is able to acetylate the 6-position but not strong enough to acetylate the 3-position) and also a catalyst so that molecular site 3 is able to be bound and molecular site 6 is blocked. This is not done anyway since the brain deacetylates the 3-position in order to bioactivate The MAM.

One did not actually go further into the subject earlier as it belongs in the opiate chemistry section. One will post there soon with further information and documentation to show that the information is correct.

Hope this has been of help

[samuraigecko]

Just a quick update before one makes his presentation to the opiate chemistry section.

6-monoacetylmorphine already has a free 3-hydroxy group and shares the high lipophilicity of heroin, so it penetrates the brain just as quickly and does not need to be deacetylated at the 3-position in order to be bioactivated; this makes 6-monoacetylmorphine somewhat more potent than heroin, but it is rarely encountered as an illicit drug due to the difficulty in selectively acetylating morphine at the 6-position without also acetylating the 3-position. This can however be accomplished by using -

acetic acid with an appropriate catalyst to carry out the acetylation, rather than acetic anhydride, as acetic acid is not a strong enough acetylating agent to acetylate the phenolic 3-hydroxy group but is able to acetylate the 6-hydroxy group, thus selectively producing 6-MAM rather than heroin.

Interesting.

Since the brain deacetylates the 3-position in order for the 6MAM to be bioactivated in Heroin (3-6DAM) one would guess that contrary to the above 6MAM would in fact work quicker, although only slightly. Since 6MAM has shown to be more potent than 3-6DAM (Heroin) One would pretty much take this assumption to be factual using simple logic.

THIS link is helpful but does not show what one intends to show very soon in the chem section.

Hope this has been of insight and does indeed show that 6MAM is only producible with acetic acid and not acetic andrahyde. The fact does remain however that for Dual Acetylation of both 3 and 6 molecular positions acetic andrahyde is needed and cannot be done with acetic acids.

Legal status for 6MAM

Prohibited (S9) (AU) - (DiacetylMorphine is still used in Australia for IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY pain relief, 6MAM is being trialled by certain hospitals. Pethidine is often no longer used as it is being "phased out" due to its side effects in a high percentage of people)

Class A (UK) - (DiacetylMorphine and Pethidine is still used in the UK for the same as above- no 6MAM)

Schedule I (US) - (Where it is being used [in trial for a few years now] in military and civilian capacities for IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY pain relief. DiacetylMorphine has been discontinued, Pethidine (Demerol) and in trial cases 6MAM are now used. One does not know why this is as DiacetylMorphine produces less side effects than pethidine.)

Routes - Intravenous only

These citations come from:
Wiki
Ricerca Italiana.
Weitz CJ, Lowney LI, Faull KF, Feistner G, Goldstein A. 6-Acetylmorphine: a natural product present in mammalian brain.
Life Sciences. 1983;33 Suppl 1:773-6.
Progress in Neuropsychopharmacology and Biological Psychiatry. 1984;8(4-6):747-50.

and much more to come in the relevant section.

Hope this has been of help

[myfavoriteaccident88]

dude why dont u ACTUALLY READ!!!!

YOU DONT JUST NEED ACETIC ACID, U NEED ACID ACID AND A CATALYST! WHICH I GUARENTEE U YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET!!!!!

AND IF U CAN TELL ME WHAT CATALYST IT IS I WILL GIVE U 10000 DOLLARS CUZ I KNOW U HAVE NO CLUE.


its sooooo easy to get Acetic Anhydride i dont even know why anyone would bother with anything else.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Appreciate your enthusiasm, but keep it down. Including the FUCKING CAPS LOCKS!

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by myfavoriteaccident88

dude why dont u ACTUALLY READ!!!!

YOU DONT JUST NEED ACETIC ACID, U NEED ACID ACID AND A CATALYST! WHICH I GUARENTEE U YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET!!!!!

AND IF U CAN TELL ME WHAT CATALYST IT IS I WILL GIVE U 10000 DOLLARS CUZ I KNOW U HAVE NO CLUE.


its sooooo easy to get Acetic Anhydride i dont even know why anyone would bother with anything else.

Lol, SWIyou will know what the catalyst is soon enough after One has compiled his MANY paged document on the relevant topic in the chemistry section.

As was stated again, acetic andrahyde cannot be used to make 6MAM because it cannot bind only the 6-position without also binding the 3-position. Heh. Anyhoo . . . . Until then . . .

Hope this has been of help.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by myfavoriteaccident88

dude why dont u ACTUALLY READ!!!!

YOU DONT JUST NEED ACETIC ACID, U NEED ACID ACID AND A CATALYST! WHICH I GUARENTEE U YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET!!!!!

AND IF U CAN TELL ME WHAT CATALYST IT IS I WILL GIVE U 10000 DOLLARS CUZ I KNOW U HAVE NO CLUE.


its sooooo easy to get Acetic Anhydride i dont even know why anyone would bother with anything else.

Its even easier to get acetic acid. The reason why anyone would bother is logical - acetic andrahyde acetylates BOTH positions (3 and 6) and cannot target one specific position (in this example, position 6)

You need to give me 10000 dollars because the catalyst is electricity (with the use of aluminum chloride as the carrier).
SWIyou can check the relative chem posts one made for citations etc, more are to come also.

Cheers, needed the money. lol

[samuraigecko]

of course.

Switzerland prescribes DiacetylMorphine to its "known habitual addicts" and also uses it in ER situations. It is also used in ER situations in a lot of Norse countries (north eastern europe)

This link helps
THIS link is also very interesting
This link shows how pharmaceutical grade 3,6DAM HCl is made.

There is a heap more out there, just type "pharmaceutical DiacetylMorphine" into google as the pages are MANY.

So far, for ER situations SWIM has received 3,6DAM HCl in a few countries. These include. England, Australia, Romania, Russia, Estonia, Greece, France and Spain. SWIM rides motorcycles and is a very accident prone man with a bit of a crazy side, suffice it to say he wont be visiting Europe again any time soon. He broke and rebroke his femur quite a few times on his ride through Europe and still continued to ride anyway.

Hope this has been of help.

[Paracelsus]

^^^Psych0naut was asking about ER situations, not allowing addicts to shoot up (like it happens in Switzerland).

Heroin is schedule I in Romania, which means it has no accepted medical use and no use except for research purposes is legal (see http://www.hospice.ro/docs/Lege%20stupefiante.pdf). So much for this user's credibility.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

^^^Psych0naut was asking about ER situations, not allowing addicts to shoot up (like it happens in Switzerland).

Heroin is schedule I in Romania, which means it has no accepted medical use and no use except for research purposes is legal (see http://www.hospice.ro/docs/Lege%20stupefiante.pdf). So much for this user's credibility.

same goes for France. Medical uses of heroin ( prescription, E.R. situations, palliatives) were terminated in 1963.

b

[Psych0naut]

Indeed as Paracelsus said, I meant in hospital settings. I know it's available for heavilly addicted Heroin users in countries where it isn't available for any medical purposes, like Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wasn't amazed by the fact that it's used in Spain, but France, I never would have thought of that. What's the deal with the diacetylmorphine in Romania though, Paracelsus says it's not used?

[samuraigecko]

As one mentioned MANY times over there are sources he will not give up for incrimination reasons but the following is going to show that the "users credibility" statement perhaps should have been worded a little differently.

example 1:
"Companies other than Bayer can now manufacture both drugs using the names aspirin (lowercase A) and heroin (lowercase H), but the United States banned the manufacture and use of heroin in any form in 1924."

example 2:
"In Canada heroin is a controlled substance under Schedule I of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (CDSA). Every person who seeks or obtains heroin without disclosing authorization 30 days prior to obtaining another prescription from a practitioner is guilty of an indictable offense and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years. Possession for purpose of trafficking is guilty of an indictable offense and liable to imprisonment for life"

example 3:
"In Hong Kong, heroin is regulated under Schedule 1 of Hong Kong's Chapter 134 Dangerous Drugs Ordinance. It can only be used legally by health professionals and for university research purposes. It can be given by pharmacists under a prescription. Anyone who supplies heroin without prescription can be fined $10000(HKD). The penalty for trafficking or manufacturing heroin is a $5,000,000 (HKD) fine and life imprisonment. Possession of heroin for consumption without license from the Department of Health is illegal with a $1,000,000 (HKD) fine and/or 7 years of jail time."

example 4:
"In the United Kingdom, heroin is available by prescription, though it is a restricted Class A drug. According to the British National Formulary (BNF) edition 50, diamorphine hydrochloride may be used in the treatment of acute pain, myocardial infarction, acute pulmonary oedema, and chronic pain. The treatment of chronic non-malignant pain must be supervised by a specialist. The BNF notes that all opioid analgesics cause dependence and tolerance but that this is "no deterrent in the control of pain in terminal illness". When used in the palliative care of cancer patients, heroin is often injected using a syringe driver.

In Australia heroin is not available for therapeutic purposes."

In example 4 it says about not being available in AU for "therapeutic purposes" but is however used in ER situations. It is not prescribed and it is not present in any other way except for street Heroin. As one has mentioned, he has the inside track on this particular info in this country because of someone he knows.

The fact that Heroin is used for ER purposes in most UK Commonwealth countries is well known.

example 5:
"In 1994 Switzerland began a trial program featuring a heroin prescription for users not well suited for withdrawal programs—e.g. those that had failed multiple withdrawal programs. The aim is maintaining the health of the user in order to avoid medical problems stemming from low-quality street heroin. Reducing drug-related crime was another goal. Users can more easily get or maintain a paid job through the program as well. The first trial in 1994 began with 340 users and it was later expanded to 1000 after medical and social studies suggested its continuation. Participants are prescribed to inject heroin in specially designed pharmacies for about US $13 per dose."

example 6:
"The success of the Swiss trials led German, Dutch, and Canadian cities to try out their own heroin prescription programs. Some Australian cities (such as Sydney) have trialled legal heroin supervised injecting centers, in line with other wider harm minimization programs. Heroin is unavailable on prescription however, and remains illegal outside the injecting room, and effectively decriminalized inside of the injecting room."

[NOTE: Just because someone cannot be PRESCRIBED DiacetylMorphine does not mean that it CANNOT be used in any ER situation in a particular country. There are many drugs which are not available for prescription and are class A or schedule 1 but are still used in hospital situations.]

THIS LINK shows the U.N. Drug scheduling and the specific requirements of each class thereof. It is important to note that Thebaine and other non-active alkaloids which are made to synthesize other semi-synthetic alkaloids are also in this class. Once again, just because a drug is in schedule 1 or class A does not necessarily mean that the drug CANNOT be used in either ER or prescribed situations.

A fair number of countries have a policy of keeping Diamorphine use in hospitals a deep secret. The reasons for this are as obvious as a previous insult.

example 7:
"To compare the effectiveness of nasal diamorphine spray with intramuscular morphine for analgesia in children and teenagers with acute pain due to a clinical fracture, and to describe the safety profile of the spray."

example 8:
UK policy on emergency drugs.

example 9:
"To compare the efficacy of diamorphine administered by a patient-controlled pump (patient-controlled analgesia) with intramuscular administration for pain relief in labour."

example 10:
THIS medical journal is available if you "sign up" to the web site. LOL

example 11:
HERE is a trial that was conducted in both UK and AU

example 12:
This is suggestive of diamorphine use in AU, otherwise WHY would it have been stated in the first place. It also seems to be an AU site.

THIS is a good relative description of palliative care which includes diamorphine. Seems to suggest diamorphine in hospitals may be more prevalent than one may have thought perhaps? Seems also from this article that morphine and diamorphine are almost interchangeable terms, diamorphine just being a "stronger form of morphine" as was explained to one after a car accident one had while in AU.

example 13:
More reference to diamorphine in Australia, listing it as a "high risk medicine" with the whole "look alike sound alike" warnings etc, lots of pages to read.
etc - National Patient Safety Agency (NPSA) alerts National Health Service (NHS) to risks with high dose morphine and diamorphine injections

It does seem indeed that morphine/diamorphine are almost interchangeable.

It stated here that there are only 2 countries which legally use diamorphine for epidurals.

Some other EXAMPLES may be found to be a little obscure but come from fairly reliable sources such as the BBC etc referring to countries other than Britain using diamorphine.

Example 14:
"Dr Nathanson said the shortage stemmed from a global move, led by the United States, to avoid diamorphine, although medics in Britain and other European countries favoured it to other pain killers."

example 15:
Australian diamorphine use in childbirth.
"It is clear that a lot of women are being given a lot of drugs, mostly opiates such as pethidine or heroin (known euphemistically as diamorphine). Not all midwives fit this description though, and many feel chuffed when they enable women to "get away with only a bit of entonox", even during a water birth or at a home birth."

example 16:
Sales of other hospital products have grown by 2% with increased sales of diamorphine compensating for the reduced sales from IMS products in Europe due to a reduction in the number of products in this range.Medeva PLC Reports Preliminary Results for the Year Ended December ...

example 17:
In many parts of the world, it is used as an analgesic (for relief of pain), particularly for the terminally ill

There are so many more references for the use of diamorphine in UK, AU and EUR that one is not even going to BOTHER posting any more information on this.

Thanks for questioning ones credibility, one is always pleased to have a challenge.

Hope this has in some way helped.

[Paracelsus]

^^^ ER use is not "medical?"

You apparently failed to address the reason for my questioning your credibility, which is that heroin is schedule I in Romania and the law that I linked to above (which is in use and applied as of right now) clearly states that substances under Table 1 of the Annex (which include heroin) are "prohibited, without recognized interest in medicine." The only controlled substances that can be used medically are those in tables 2 & 3, which "present an interest in medicine, placed under strict control" and "placed under control," respectively.