questions for ayahuasca experts

[gib]

Hello ayahuasca experts,

SWIM purchased 10g of jurema but doesn't have the banisteriopsis to go with it. Can anything be done with the jurema by itself? SWIM tried smoking it but to no avail (not that he expected anything). Can he make a brew out of it (as if making ayahuasca) and drink it by itself?

[x cynic x]

No, swim needs a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) so that the dmt isn't oxidized into oblivion. In other words, without an maoi like Syrian Rue, the dmt will be destroyed, as will Swiy's chances of reaping any desirable effects. Swim is certain that this is mentioned in other threads, so please try to utfse more often.

[gib]

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for not using the search engine.

I had a couple more questions, one of which was actually answered by using the search engine, the other wasn't. The other was: SWIM's approach to any new drug is to take really small doses at first and work his way up as he feels comfortable. Couldn't he do this with ayahuasca? I mean, there's no reason he has to gulp down the whole brew in one session, is there?

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by x cynic x

No, swim needs a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) so that the dmt isn't oxidized into oblivion. In other words, without an maoi like Syrian Rue, the dmt will be destroyed, as will Swiy's chances of reaping any desirable effects. Swim is certain that this is mentioned in other threads, so please try to utfse more often.

SwiG only needs an MAOI for oral consumption of DMT. SwiG can still make a brew, boil the contents down to a reasonable amount, and dose rectally without an MAOI. See here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...amanic+Colonic for discussion of this technique. If one has the ability to bypass their social or physical aversion to the anus, rectal dosing is an exceptionally effective procedure with valid benefits.

[acolon_5]

There is no reason to gulp it all down. Starting small can help prevent an overwhelming experience, which can turn one off to aya for good. It can also help one judge the strength of said jurema, which can vary considerably from one batch to the next. Starting slow is always a wise idea.

[chemlove]

Always have to be careful with the Auy. cause its really strong especially with the rookies (first time users).

and you'll surely need to have something to go w/ what you have (Syrian Rue)

but I'm not going into much details as its covered above.

[gib]

I guess SWIM could also prepare a batch of syrian rue or bani, drink that by itself, and then a couple hours later, smoke a pipe of the jurema. Would that work? If SWIM doesn't like it, at least it won't last 10 hours.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by gib

I guess SWIM could also prepare a batch of syrian rue or bani, drink that by itself, and then a couple hours later, smoke a pipe of the jurema. Would that work? If SWIM doesn't like it, at least it won't last 10 hours.

First of all, most ayahuasca sessions do not last anywhere near 10 hours. Peak experiences usually consist of a 30-60 minute onset, 3-6 hour plateau, and a 1-2 hour 'afterglow'. This is partially body-bias based as the production of endogenous chemicals without their natural destruction via MAO could theoretically result in a longer experience based on MAO dose and intensity of neurotransmitter production (usually determined by emotional content).

The Harmala alkaloids in syrian rue will cause an altered-state, usually manifesting in mild visual distortion (auras, ripples, lag...etc.) and a comfortably heavy 'body-load'. It will have an effect on the length and 'intensity' of DMT consumption, regardless of how the DMT is ingested, but it is not necessary unless one plans to ingest the DMT orally. An MAOI is not needed for consumption if swiy plans ingest DMT via vaporization/smoke. Also, the DMT content of Jurema may require an unfortunately large portion of matter for consumption, and seem a less than probable concept for smoking. Swim recomends that if swiy has the MAOI, they make the brew in its entirety. If they are still lacking a source of MAOI, they should rectally dose using a non-MAOI brew of Jurema.

[gib]

I see. Thanks Shampoo.

Originally Posted by Shampoo

An MAOI is not needed for consumption if swiy plans ingest DMT via vaporization/smoke. Also, the DMT content of Jurema may require an unfortunately large portion of matter for consumption, and seem a less than probable concept for smoking.

I guess that's why it didn't work for SWIM. I've heard of smoking DMT for an intense 5 minute trip, but I guess that's after extracting the pure DMT from the jurema, isn't it (and it would look like yellow/orange crystals, right?)?

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by gib

I guess that's why it didn't work for SWIM. I've heard of smoking DMT for an intense 5 minute trip, but I guess that's after extracting the pure DMT from the jurema, isn't it (and it would look like yellow/orange crystals, right?)?

Unless swim smoked a half-gram or more (reported isolation resulted in .57% by dry weight, most studies assumed an isolation of about 50% accuracy, therefore assume 1.4% dry weight [though as high as 11% has been reported in a single sample...] Threshold psychedelic dose of DMT is more or less 5mg smoked. A half-gram of 1% dry-weight Jurema would produce approximately 7mg. That being said, ingestion via a half gram smoked would require inhalation within less than a minute, a painful precedent to say the least.

Also, during an extraction, one reaches a relatively impure mix of alkaloids and plant mass known as 'jungle spice', which is subsequently refined into a pure white crystalline substance. The preceding 'jungle-spice' normally appears as yellow/orange oily crystals, but pure DMT should be white or clear depending on size and density.

[stinky_plant]

I believe jurema is traditionally taken without an MAOI admixture such as ayahuasca (banisteriopsis caapi. For clarification, syrian rue is NOT ayahuasca). Jurema is active on its own because it has certain phytoindoles which allows DMT to be digested. That doesn't mean you can't make without MAOI's.

[x cynic x]

Ok well shove it up Swiy's ass if thats most convenient for him. Whatever Swiy perfers, Swim likes to consume orally and just assumed that would be the route any common consumer would choose. There is a threshold dosage that needs to be reached to acquire any effects so let Swiy work his way up from there

Jeremy Bigwood found in the course of experimentation that DMT could be made orally active in doses of 100 mg. when combined with a sub-threshold dose of harmaline.
http://www.biopark.org/peru/Ayaharmaline.html


This had to be due to its DMT-content, which amounted to an average of 29 mg/ dose in the 17 potions analyzed [range: 25-36 mg/dose].http://www.santodaime.it/Library/NAT...8a_english.htm





And if Swiy is an intellect he may find this rather intriguing
http://www.springerlink.com/content/kl8tmq4u0r78ymjj/

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by gib

Hello ayahuasca experts,

SWIM purchased 10g of jurema but doesn't have the banisteriopsis to go with it. Can anything be done with the jurema by itself? SWIM tried smoking it but to no avail (not that he expected anything). Can he make a brew out of it (as if making ayahuasca) and drink it by itself?

Bro' soak 6-8grams of the jurema in low acidic water ph 3-4 for one week'

Strain, decant twice'

Then drink half of it'

Hard on the guts, but an awesome experience'

Blissed be'

Motumba'

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by Motumba

Bro' soak 6-8grams of the jurema in low acidic water ph 3-4 for one week'

Strain, decant twice'

Then drink half of it'

Hard on the guts, but an awesome experience'

Blissed be'

Motumba'

Cold water' the mole has another mole conected to it that prevents some of it's amination'
Heat desroys this mole'

[podge]

Originally Posted by Motumba

Bro' soak 6-8grams of the jurema in low acidic water ph 3-4 for one week'

Strain, decant twice'

Then drink half of it'

Hard on the guts, but an awesome experience'

Blissed be'

Motumba'

An MAOI is essential or the DMT will get broken down before it gets absorbed. And for anybody using MAOIs they must be very careful of their diet in the preceding days before use as certain food items when used in conjunction with MAOI can cause death.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/maois/HQ01575

This is one the first links i found....theres probably a better list out there but this should get ya going.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by podge

An MAOI is essential or the DMT will get broken down before it gets absorbed. And for anybody using MAOIs they must be very careful of their diet in the preceding days before use as certain food items when used in conjunction with MAOI can cause death.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/maois/HQ01575

This is one the first links i found....theres probably a better list out there but this should get ya going.

Good point about safety regarding the use of an MAOI, however for the sake of accuracy, Jurema contains 5-meo-DMT (which requires no MAOI for oral consumption), n,n-DMT (which does require and MAOI), and a few recently identified ß-carboline alkaloids (which act as an MAOI). Though the entirety of the DMT will not be ingested, (due to the inability for complete n,n-DMT absorption) a reasonable portion of psychoactive alkaloids are still readily accessible and active in Jurema alone.

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by podge

An MAOI is essential or the DMT will get broken down before it gets absorbed. And for anybody using MAOIs they must be very careful of their diet in the preceding days before use as certain food items when used in conjunction with MAOI can cause death.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/maois/HQ01575

This is one the first links i found....theres probably a better list out there but this should get ya going.

Sorry this is not correct'

Jurema contains a molecule called Yuramine that bonds with the DMT mole and preventgs amination in the body'
The drink is called Jurema'
If you boil the bark you kill this mole, that is of why you cold water extract for one week'

Ez now'

Motumba'

Jurema is the only wood I know that contaions Yuramine bonded to the DMT mole' making the spice orally active'

[stinky_plant]

Jurema has 5meo dmt? Why doesn't 5meo dmt not need and MAOI, is it kind of like one on its own or something?

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by stinky_plant

Jurema has 5meo dmt? Why doesn't 5meo dmt not need and MAOI, is it kind of like one on its own or something?

Jurema has n,n-DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, ß-carbolines, 5-hydroxy-DMT (Bufotenin), as well as Yuremamine, the phyto-indole potentially responsible for oral activity. Anectodal experiments and Jon Ott have both reported (contrary to Shulgin) that oral doses of 30-35mg are active, claiming that 5-MeO-DMT acts as an MAOI. Conflicting speculative and experimental evidence of this phenomenon seems far more well-populated than direct experiences. More important however are the ß-carboline like Harmaline which act as MAOIs also populating Jurema.

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Jurema has n,n-DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, ß-carbolines, 5-hydroxy-DMT (Bufotenin), as well as Yuremamine, the phyto-indole potentially responsible for oral activity. Anectodal experiments and Jon Ott have both reported (contrary to Shulgin) that oral doses of 30-35mg are active, claiming that 5-MeO-DMT acts as an MAOI. Conflicting speculative and experimental evidence of this phenomenon seems far more well-populated than direct experiences. More important however are the ß-carboline like Harmaline which act as MAOIs also populating Jurema.

This is incorrect'

No beta-carbolines in Jurema'
If there where you could just cook it up and drink it like Aya'
It is the Yuramine that makes the DMT orally active' cold water extraction, heat kills it'

5 Meo-DMT does not act like a moai'

Stick 10mg in a pipe and smoke it it lasts 5-10 mins'

5 meo-DMT is not orally active' without a moai' if it acted like a maoi it would be orally active'

5 Hydroxy DMT is orally active'

So some mix ups there folks

5 meo DMT is the power and nn DMT is the glory, both are orally inactive without a maoi'

Ez now'

Motumba'

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by Motumba

This is incorrect'

No beta-carbolines in Jurema'
If there where you could just cook it up and drink it like Aya'
It is the Yuramine that makes the DMT orally active' cold water extraction, heat kills it'

5 Meo-DMT does not act like a moai'

Stick 10mg in a pipe and smoke it it lasts 5-10 mins'

5 meo-DMT is not orally active' without a moai' if it acted like a maoi it would be orally active'

5 Hydroxy DMT is orally active'

So some mix ups there folks

5 meo DMT is the power and nn DMT is the glory, both are orally inactive without a maoi'

Ez now'

Motumba'

Ok from swims experience toad venon is orally active 5-meo-DMT, it also has Bufotenine in it'

So my apologies on my above statements'

Ok Question if this is so how come you can't get off on nn DMT if you eat it and 5 meo-DMT together'
The 5 meo-DMT should make the nn DMT orally active'
Anyone know of what is going on here'

I read Shulgins and Otts reports they on't mention this'

Great post folks

Ez now'

Motumba'

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Motumba

I read Shulgins and Otts reports they on't mention this'

See: Pharmahuasca, Anahuasca and Vinho da Jurema; Human Pharmacology of Oral DMT Plus Harmine by Jonathon Ott. It can be found online. He also gave specific Oral doses at a conference in 2000 though I cannot find the transcript right now.

ß-carbolines were reported present by Lara Ochoa and Marquez Alonso 1996, 99; Meckes-Lozoya et al. 1990.

For Shulgin's disagreements with the oral activity of 5-MeO-DMT see: TiHkal #38