CWE and caffeine removal: the quest

[sirris]

Hi there,

SWIM's looking to figure out a personal standard way of extracting

codeine from APAP with the least amount of caffeine remaining, in as

efficient and productive a way as possible.

SWIM had recently tried Chromic's CWE.

LINK: http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162....e.chromic.html

It involves the boiling off of the extra water to get things down to a

level for super-saturation. The results were actually pretty good at

what should have been a 200mg dose (10ml of my final 70ml).

This leads SWIM to wonder about the true level of deterioration of

codeine by boiling, so the questions:

- Would boiling off the excess water really cause a significant loss of

codeine potency? Would a fan be all that much better?

Now this method creates a super-saturated solution, SWIM thinks, going

by what SWIM has read in this thread,

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthrea...ght=chloroform

SWIM knows that there is still caffeine left in the solution because if

SWIM lets the temperature drop enough the crystals start to form. This

leads to some other questions:

- Is there any end to caffeine crystalization? If SWIM leaves it going

it becomes an almost solid mass. So would it be worth letting this go

and somehow squeezing the fluids out (or would this just re-introduce

the caffeine?)?

or

- Should SWIM keep repeating the process until there are no more

crystals forming?

Finally, there is the use of chloroform. SWIM has read about it and,

honestly, it scares SWIM a bit. SWIM doesn't know enough about chemistry

to know if SWIM should be scared by it though.

SWIM's looked into the making of chloroform at this link,

http://www.sci-spot.com/Chemistry/chloro2.htm

It seems simple enough but (see the above).

- Should SWIM even consider the Clorox/Acetone method of making

chloroform for extraction or is SWIM out of his league (going by what

you've read above)?

Now, if SWIM should:

- Do you really need a separatory funnel or other genuine chemistry gear

to do the extraction or can you siphon off the excess with a

syringe-type thing, for example?

- Lastly, is there any nasty stuff left in the product once you've let

the chloroform evaporate off (SWIM knows about the phosgene gas that can

be created from deteriorating chloroform, so SWIM doesn't mean that)?

Whew! That's a long first post. It may seem like a lot to get rid of

caffeine but SWIM really has a bad tolerance to it. There's also a huge

curiosity, and drive for perfection too, in the process.

SWIM is willing to accept that he's not capable of doing some of this

stuff, it is potentially dangerous, so feel free to say so.

Thanks for any help.

SirriS

Reputation Comments on this post:

Link to other forum + annoying formatting. no points substrated though as it's your first post.

[TheChemist]

Hello SWIM,

SWIM knows that boiling may deteriorate some of the Codeine in SWIM's mixture. Chloroform is a typical solvent used to dissolve caffeine, as well as a solvent similar in nature called dichloromethane. It is not unusual for a college/uni chemistry student to extract the caffeine from tea leaves using chloroform or dichloromethane (also known as methylene chloride).

SWIM knows that dichloromethane is used to treat coffee beans in order to remove the caffeine and make "decafe" coffee.

SWIM would advise against using the boiling method if SWIM is concerned about losing codeine. If SWIM has access to chloroform, SWIM may try and extract the caffeine.

The only problem that will occur is if the Codeine is soluble in the chloroform. This problem may not occur if the Codeine SWIM has is the phosphate salt of codeine (in which case, it probably won't be as soluble in the dichloromethane or chloroform).

If SWIM does have access to chloroform, SWIM recommends that cold water extract be followed by extraction of the caffeine by chloroform (3 extractions of 100mL each).

The resulting solution of codeine will most likely have some remnants of chloroform in it. Do NOT drink it! You must find a way of removing all liquid present before re-hydrating the codeine in water once again. This must be done to ensure no chloroform is present. If SWIM has access to a simple vacuum dehydrator, this may be SWIM's best bet.

SWIM is not sure what else can be done other than use of an organic solvent such as chloroform to remove the caffeine. SWIM wishes you good luck.


P.S. SWIM may want to risk it, but gently heating and agitating the water solution after extract with chloroform should evaporate the chloroform. SWIM is not positive about this! There may be an inseparable mixture of chloroform/water left over. SWIM will check into this and post at a later date.

[sirris]

Thanks for the reply.

So by leaving the left over solution to evaporate to a powder the chloroform would be completely eliminated?

I'm thinking (this SWIM thing is too complicated, so I'm going back to the "me" form (correct me if I'm wrong)) that a side-by-side experiment is in order.

I will split a CWE in two and boil down half and try a chloroform extraction with the other half.

I'll report back.

[sirris]

Having done the basic experiment of trying to make chloroform, and succeeded, I found that it would very difficult to actually make enough that would be a usable quantity. (unless I missing something in the process).

I am currently running a concurrent experiment skipping the CWE entirely and, instead, doing 2 acetone washes and then 2 isopropanol washes and a final isopropanol washed with bicarb mixed in. The final stage being an evaporation to a powder.

I am somewhat nervous about this one; I worry about there being any left over remnants of the acetone. I wonder if, by evaporating all liquids entirely, there is no residue (well, I hope so anyway).

The idea with this experiment is that the acetone and the isopropanol will wash out the APAP and caffeine while leaving the codeine intact. Then, by using the bicarb, you create a freebase codeine and then filter that. It's kind of the reverse of CWE a few times and then ending in the same (meaning, keep the gunk of the acetone/isopropanol washes and then, in the last stage keep the filtered fluid).

Will report back.

[TheChemist]

SWIM would like to suggest that making chloroform is probably not recommended.

SWIM would also like to suggest that mixing isopropanol/ethanol/acetone with water is not recommended, as they will form a solution. However, SWIM knows that you are probably talking about first treating the powder with acetone/isopropanol/ethanol etc.

This is interesting to SWIM and they will check on the solubility of caffeine versus codeine phosphate in these solvents sometime when SWIM has time.

SWIM would like say that small amounts of acetone will not be extremely harmful, as our bodies are capable of producing ketones (of which acetone is considered). SWIM would like to offer the following toxicity data on acetone from the following link:

http://www.pcl.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PR/propanone.html

LDLO for propanone (acetone) - 1159 mg/kg-1

This corresponds to the lowest dose of acetone known to cause a fatality in a person, which, for a 180 pound man would be ~95 grams or ~119 mL of pure acetone. SWIM thinks you will never consume anywhere close to this amount if you are careful. However, gastrointestinal problems may result, but SWIM is not sure. SWIM frequently uses acetone in lab to clean glassware, and acetone is considered very benign despite the hard rap it sometime gets.

If an extraction can be done with acetone/isopropanol/ethanol to the powder to remove the caffeine, even SWIM would like to consider using it.

SWIM will post back at a later date when they have more information.

[sirris]

Having completed the experiment (for the most part (not entirely dried out yet, still a bit tacky)) I would have to say that it worked pretty well.

A test last night (my only was to see what kind of caffeine content might still be there) turned out fairly reasonably. I wonder if I had done one more wash of acetone if it would have been better.

The end product is not water-soluble anymore, so I just did an eye balling test. A very small amount stirred into water (it just floats around, never dissolving). It had a fairly pronounced effect, and seemed to come in waves. It actually reminded me very much of doing a few percs.

Now, not having a milligram scale (sadly) I'm not sure what I'm going to do to figure out dosage.

There was no acetone smell left over after the last process, btw.

Finally, here's a link to where I found this process. You may understand more potential in this than I (kind of scares me again).

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=1&gl=ca

[sirris]

OK, drying this stuff is very hard (assuming that I'm doing it right (and perhaps not too impatient)). It continues to to remain very tacky; to the point that I actually need acetone to get it off my fingers if I touch it.

I can see how freebase would be useful if you intend to push forward with it chemistry-wise (which I do not).

As for it being a good way to get a caffeine-free codeine extraction, well, yes and no. It does have a significant lacking in caffeine but the end product is somewhat hard to handle (for me at least).

Considering previous tests using Chromic's method, as compared to straight up CWE, have proved potent enough (even though you use heat in the process), I'm apt to stick with Chromic.

I do still wonder at how much potency is lost due to the heat (I mean is a lot or more of a myth in practical terms).

For example; codeine is light sensitive too but leaving it in the light for a short period of time isn't going to do much too it. It would require a long term exposure.

Maybe it's the same with heat? boiling it for 20 minutes isn't going to do much harm but keeping it at that temperature for a long period would?

Reputation Comments on this post:

I did not take any points as you are a newby, but watch the self-incrimination, use swim

[TheChemist]

SWIM agrees that leaving it in the light for short periods won't do anything. However, boiling it is a whole different story. Boiling is a very intimate process in that it contacts every surface of every molecule (in theory) while light can only impinge on the molecules on the surface of the pill or powder.

SWIM honestly doesn't know how sensitive codeine is to heat, but SWIM agrees with you that 20 minutes doesn't sound like a lot of time boiling it.

SWIM has checked 3 MSDSs on codeine phosphate. 2 list a melting point, while the third lists the melting point as also a decomposition point. This temperature is 200 degrees Celsius.

With this information, SWIM thinks it wouldn't hurt to try the experiment by boiling, although SWIM recommends that boiling times be short.

SWIM still wants to check on some more formal sources to get a better idea, but SWIM has been swamped with work. SWIM promises to post back when they have more information.

SWIM suggests that, if you are bored, go purchase some acetaminophen pills (pure) and some caffeine pills, crush them, and see how well they dissolve in acetone/ethanol/isopropanol.

SWIM thinks you have some promising results, and wishes you good luck.

[sirris]

I'm going to be sticking boiling off the excess water after multiple CWE's. Once cooled the caffeine crystalizes and I then filter it off using a syringe and a folder over wet paper towel.

This seems to work well. I have piles of powdered caffeine to prove it, hehe.

I thought that this was happening because the water had become super-saturated and the caffeine fell out. However, I did an experiment where I evaporated the excess water using a fan over a longer period of time. I couldn't get the caffeine to crystalize this way. I ended up adding a bit of water and boiling it off a bit and then it did fall out. Strange. I wonder why that is?

Anyway, there is definitely less caffeine and the codeine is still pretty potent.

[sirris]

My link Chromics method seems to be dead.

Here's a new one,

http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162....e.chromic.html

[sirris]

I should point out that everything above, written under my nome de plume, has really been my transcription of SWIM's efforts. Perhaps I should try editting a bit of his work because sometimes she becomes a bit irritable, like the whole, "sick of the SWIM" thing.

[sirris]

As transcribed from the experimenter:

I tried to smoke some of the dried out freebase. It was not particularly good. It was like getting punched in the face, in an immediate sense, and then a very quick rebound. Having smoked cocaine, I would say that the cocaine had a longer lifespan, and that's saying something (as anyone who's smoked it would agree).

There was also a pretty strange after-taste. Not entirely bad really, but unusual; perhaps "new" would be better.

Anyway, I've decided that, my curiosity sated, as to the smoking of codeine, I would not bother to do it again. Certainly eating it is better, without a doubt, and perhaps rectally, although I haven't tried that yet.

[sirris]

As transcribed from the experimenter:

So to give my final assessment of the pursuit of the freebase codeine:

Unless you have the skills or ambitions to pursue the creation of more complex synthetic opiates (I have not the skills and fear overwhelms my ambitions) I would say that it is not worth the effort.

That's it, the bottomline; not worth the effort for recreational pursuits.

[gotxp]

there is a post of extracting it with activated carbon easily...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54089

but, swim doesnt know if it works or not...

[0utrider]

what about this one?

for all the people who isn't really you who have been on the quest to get the caffeine out of the codeine/caffeine solution after a cwe then read on. swim has stumbled upon a tried and true,easy at home method. After the cwe procedure is final simply filter the solution through some activated carbon (available at any local pet shop for just a few bucks) and you will have a caffeine free solution. All swim uses is one of them permanent coffee filter but any small screen strainer will work and dumped the solution through it with a small amount of the carbon in it for several minutes from cup to cup. Rinse the activated carbon first to avoid a black solution. The bonus is the carbon also filters out any remaining acetaminophen that might have remained after cold water extraction. happy extracting.

[sirris]

SWIM is back after a long recovery from a stupid bike versus car accident. Bah! But that's done with.


SWIM's been over in this thread,

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...719#post455719

Thanks to you guys for pointing that out.

I'm reposting here what I posted there. I think that this thread may have become redundant though and maybe I should abandon it for the other thread(?).


Here's what's going on:

SWIM did a quick CWE on some ASA with codeine. The usual 2ml of water per pill on a batch of 200. This will left 400ml of water with codeine and caffeine as its main constituents.

Then came the AC filter (a long 1.5 inch tube with a paper coffee filters on the bottom and about 8 inches of (pre-wetted) AC at the bottom.

(As a side note, the filtering left SWIMs water smelling like sulphur/rotten eggs, although it still tasted exactly like it should. Anyone else notice a smell?)

So now there is the 400ml of filtered water. That should work out to about 350 - 400 mg of codeine per 100ml of water. SWIM, having been around the block, went for it (as an initial test). It definitely had the kick and SWIM is fairly confident that there is minimal codeine loss in the filtering (in fact due to fumbly fingers SWIM filtered it twice).

There was enough of an effect that SWIM still wondered if there was a significant amount of caffeine left (SWIM is very effected by caffeine).

So here comes the big test; SWIM goes back to Chromic's method (listed in the other thread).

The idea is to boil away (SWIM has done it at different temperatures and different amounts of starting water for differing amounts of time and it's always been worth doing, no significant loss of codeine effect, in SWIMs opinion (for those also wondering about how temperature may effect codeine)) the water and create a super-saturated solution of codeine, caffeine, etc. You then cool this in the fridge which causes the caffeine and etc to fall out of solution.

SWIM must point out that this can take some time (hours, days) and caffeine can even precipitate out after a few weeks stored in the fridge. It looks exactly how Chromic describes it; like cotton candy fluff. When it dries it has pearly kind of sheen to it.

SWIM filters out the precipitate by making a pressure filter out of a big syringe and a piece of Bounty towel folded up in a few layers and made the right size for the syringe (oh, and wet the towel and squeeze it out before you put it in the syringe).

SWIM has found this to be the best method for filtering it. It is neat though to see the stuff that looks like ice but that never melts sitting in a paper coffee filter.

Anyway, the boiling has been done and now SWIM will be watching over the next few days for the caffeine to precipitate out.

If nothing happens it may imply that there is nothing in the solution to fall out; so no caffeine? Hopefully.

I'm am interested in any questions or comments.

Thanks.

SirriS

[lifer]

Ol' Jack has being experimenting with Activated Carbon. Jack thinks that while it may not get all the caffeine out it gets most of it and the cod. remains. THis is used with coffee filters AND carbon. As the man said above. Carbon works and is simple and cheap. Jack says he will continue tp perfect his method and report back but as I type Jack says(Jack's an old hand) there is definately a big reduction in caffiene using activated carbon.(rinse the carbon several times to get the black out,harmless but not appealing). Any other folk out there using carbon please contribute. Jack thinks he has it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

useful suggestion. looking forward to updates on the method

[I_8_my yellow crayon]

Swim has researched very deep into this technique. Swim will add that no experiment swim ever did, produced exact results as the one before. Swim will add that once, He did an extraction on tylenol 1's. In his solution there was 6.5 grams of apap, 300mg of caffeine, and 160mg of codeine. Swim rinsed this solution slowly through a 8 inch long, half inch tube, full of activated carbon, with a coffee filter at the bottom. He rinsed solution three times and got exeptional results, however, he was never able to replicate these same results again. Just for shits and giggles swim is gonna do another experiment right now, as he is off work tonight. Swim has abandoned his cwe research due to getting a large increase in his script from the doctor. So he really doesn't have the need for cwe's no more, but he still loves experimenting.

[alaskazagnut]

My friend is wondering if anyone has looked into the specific gravity of codeine vs. caffeine. If they hydrated equally, wouldn't they separate into different layers if allowed to sit for a while? SWIM would then be able to possibly pipette or eyedropper the caffeine layer from the codeine layer. But maybe my friend has no clue and they always stay in combined solution.