Dose - Acid: How much is too much?

[realitybias]

How much acid is too much acid? I am not talking single dose experiences, but rather, how many times swim takes acid within a set, long-duration time period. I have a character in a short story I am writing. I know tolerance builds up to LSD, but my character has done LSD every weekend for the last 5 weeks, skipping only one week. Each time, he learns more and more than the last, and has a better trip than the last. He doesnt seem to be going "crazy" in any sense of the word. Why then do people say that this stuff can drive people insane if they do it too often?

[bloot]

It's just propaganda to keep people from using drugs. Seeing that it is a chemical that is synthesized it gives them something to fall back on.. "The chemicals will drive you insane!" is what they say. I knew a guy who used cid every day for quite a while. Nothing wrong with him.

[chemlove]

Well there are many stories of people going crazy on LSD like SYD BARRETT of the original Pink Floyd before he was unable to stay with the band.

I know in SWIM's experiences he gets sick when he eats more then 3 or 4 hits in any given night, and for SWIM personally if he does it more then 2 or 3 times in any given month he can really notice how its not really effecting him to the same degree it did earlier. In the perfect world SWIM likes waiting about 3 weeks plus in between sessions.

[razorwiredildo]

Originally Posted by chemlove

Well there are many stories of people going crazy on LSD like SYD BARRETT of the original Pink Floyd before he was unable to stay with the band.

I believe Syd Barrett was already a schizophrenic, so it wasn't just the lsd that did him in. probably where that whole myth comes from is the fact that while one is tripping they are technically in a psychotic state.

[Xeraphim]

Swim notices profound changes in the way he thinks about day to day things when cid use gets more frequent. Everything becomes visual representations and energy fields/awareness. Swims thoughts start to make him feel crazy around other people who don't do drugs, he has trouble communicating. Swim also becomes more self-interested and absorbed in his thoughts, which can sometimes be good or bad. This is why SWIM does not use frequently. Swim also notes pupil dilation with frequent use, looks like perma-trippin, kinda scary to look at someone who's pupil's are buggin out every time you see them and theyre not on anything. Thats just Swim's opinion tho.

Originally Posted by chemlove

Well there are many stories of people going crazy on LSD like SYD BARRETT of the original Pink Floyd before he was unable to stay with the band.

I know in SWIM's experiences he gets sick when he eats more then 3 or 4 hits in any given night, and for SWIM personally if he does it more then 2 or 3 times in any given month he can really notice how its not really effecting him to the same degree it did earlier. In the perfect world SWIM likes waiting about 3 weeks plus in between sessions.

[plur]

a friend of my famly (a pyhcolgist) says"thats is not a matter of how many times you take lsd but rather takeing way to much at one time that holds the possablity of subsetins induce pyhcoes" it sould be noted that the DSM-IV
disribes list it as lasting less then 4 weeks and that the person has know permoibr digouiss and is unaware that there simtoms are substance induced
so in other words you wont go crazy for the rest of your life but you may have a stort trem phcoisis which will simply pass on its own



p.s a wise man ocen siad the realty always lays somewhere in the middle of two extreme opposing claims

[moda00]

Agreed. It seems to swim that the first experience one has with acid would be the most likely to cause an acute bad reaction. Or, of course, an unexpected experience like being dosed unintentionally or in a bad environment or at a dose way over one's normal limit, could cause psychological trauma, whether short-term or longer lasting. But the concept of individuals who use the substance over a period of time or throughout their lives eventually hitting some breaking point and going crazy is surely propaganda. I think that the more experience one has with psychedelics, the more one is prepared to learn from these experiences and handle them well. That said, as with any other drug, or any other activity, one can do it for a long time and then at some point simply "outgrow" it, realize that they have learned all there is to learn from that particular thing, but I'd think if that occurred, one would walk away content- it has nothing to do with going crazy. And in the rare case that someone did start to feel bad psychological effects after years of use, they would likely choose to discontinue use voluntarily, as it is not an addictive substance, an no one would voluntarily submit themselves to repeated and intense experiences which were causing them harm.

[Strangeness]

Causing insanity? Rubbish. Sure, it can significantly alter one's perception of a great many things and supposedly carries the (somewhat universal to psychedelic substances) risk of bringing already existing mental disorders to the surface in some folks. But I know of no evidence stating that LSD causes insanity (a vague term in itself) from repeated use.As for how much is "too much," that is a decision that only the user can make, really. Do whatever seems best.

[Shampoo]

The concept of chemically induced insanity is not so much a matter of pharmacology as it is a matter of cognitive stability. Insanity is the manifestation of mental instability induced by chemical imbalance (schizophrenia etc.) and commonly a result of severe trauma. A visceral and emotional disconnect with 'reality' or 'ego', as induced by both endogenous functions and those of psychedelics like LSD, can result in said trauma, and thus can result in insanity.

So how much is too much? Enough to create trauma. For some, there is no too much. For those prepared in every sense to confront every truth, contradictory or without cause, may have no limit for exploration. Contrarily, those unprepared, without the wherewithal may find their limit to be quite small.

Reputation Comments on this post:

right on money

[realitybias]

Thats whats so strange to me... even in bad situations while tripping, SWIM has never experienced anything that he could remotely think of as traumatic. His trips have never been scary by any means. Heck, each time he takes it, he feels a newfound sense of wonder for the world around him.

[Shampoo]

Perhaps a poignant commentary on quantifying LSD:

In an L.A. Weekly interview with Jay Levin, May 1988, Terence McKenna responds to the question, "How many times have you taken LSD?"

"Terence: Well if you put them all together... I don't know, maybe 150 times when I was young. Not a lot. I think that if you do these things right, they give you plenty to think about. One thing that people do that I'm definitely opposed to is to diddle with it. If you're not taking so much that going into it you're afraid you did too much, then you didn't do enough. Not the way people will take it to go to the movies, go to the beach, this and that. No, I talk about what I call 'Heroic' doses and 'committed' doses. And if you only do heroic doses, then every trip will count. You won't have to do it more than three or four times a year to feel fully psychedelic."

[Capn_Danger]

Originally Posted by realitybias

... He doesnt seem to be going "crazy" in any sense of the word. Why then do people say that this stuff can drive people insane if they do it too often?

"Crazy" is one thing, out-of-balance or off-kilter is another. I know SWIM gets kinda wonky if he does LSD (common doses) every weekend for about 2 months. Then it's time to a take a break, let things settle, make sure both feet are planted and everything is running smoothly.

Actually, SWIM finds that a break from tripping can even help to get more from tripping- it can he helpful to look back from a different (more sober) viewpoint and try to integrate some of the trip experiences into "everyday" life. SWIM just tries to keep a balance in life. Exactly how much is too much depends very much on the individual.

[Greenport]

SwiM's monkey at the zoo has only experienced its effects twice, but both times were incredibly meaningful to her, and has changed the way she thinks forever.

She does feel that there should be some time between LSD experiences. What SwiM's monkey at the zoo always says she does is to take one thing that has been bothering her about her life, and analyze the situation while under its effects (or of similar psychedelics), and try to find a solution to it that is sensible. She in that way says she used it as a tool.

The most amazing thing she notes about it is that one can never know what to expect. She thought she understood the entire experience from the first time, and all of her research, yet the second was completely different to her, unexpected. Maybe she had forgotten the power of the first one as it was a long time ago...

But she won't forget that again. No, she remembers it now. Although if she ever does it again, she's pretty sure that there will always be a powerful element of surprise and learning mixed into it.

SwiM thinks that acid needs to be respected. It is very powerful and swiY must know his mind before he goes into the experience, and needs to take that into consideration when considering a dose. Completely knowing oneself is the key to understanding everything else one experiences. If swiY has any demons hiding in her closet, drugs like LSD may bring that out and have swiY confront it right at the surface. If swiY can handle this, it may be a wonderful tool for solving internal problems, but if not then it could spiral into a bad trip and potentially other problems. The risk of this increases as swiY goes up in dose, and swiM is sure that the more it is done the more likely swiY is to run into a bad trip one day. It is swiY's ability to handle whatever is thrown at her, that will ultimately decide what the drug will do for her in the short or long run.

[xXShroomXx]

Swim thinks that the definition of "crazy" is not defined correctly most of the time. Realistically, "insane" or "crazy" simply implies that one does not and cannot operate on the same plain of thinking as everyone else. In Swim's experience, acid made Swim see the answers to all of lifes questions so clearly that Swim began to somewhat resent the monotonous and shallow level of thinking expressed by many non-enlightened people and saw that society's (at least American society) view of "normal" and "sane" was completely the opposite of what it should be. In THAT way, Swim thinks that acid can make you appear "insane" according to a society of people who do not have the courage to stand up for themselves and are content meandering around in their lives being miserable all the while.
Personally, Swim does not see this as insane because Swim is happy to have seen behind the curtain and know now what to take seriously and when to just "let it be" to quote Swim's favorite band ;-)

Reputation Comments on this post:

good post, welcome and thanks for sharing

[Dogears]

LSD does not bring insanity to the surface that is hidden in the sub-conscious. Thisis because there is not such thing as sub consciouse psychosis. Your are either insane or you are not. You can not be a sane person with insanity hidden inside you. This is an absurd myth.

An insane person can range from mild to serious. But they can not be sane with psychosis hidden inside them.

However insane people can be very good at hidding their insanity from other people, and they do tend to do this for as long as they can. Most people can not spot an insane person doing this unless the psychosis is very advanceded in it's development and the insane person can no longer hid it effectively.

When an insane person hiding their psychosis from others takes LSD it can casue bad trips that makes the psychosis very easy for all to see. This is because LSD is a psychological intensifier. Once the person comes down from the bad trip it is easier for people to spot cause they now know it is there and therefor are looking for it.

This creates the illusion that the the LSD has unmasked a hidden psychosis in a sane person. In fact all it has done is casued an already insane person to have a very bad trip based around their psychosis that makes it obvious for all to see. The psychosis existed before the LSD. The insane person was just good at hidding it. The LSD strips them of the ability to hide their true selves while under its influence

[psyche]

When an insane person hiding their psychosis from others takes LSD it can casue bad trips that makes the psychosis very easy for all to see. This is because LSD is a psychological intensifier. Once the person comes down from the bad trip it is easier for people to spot cause they now know it is there and therefor are looking for it.

I think that insane people that can hide their 'insanity' are geniuses and enlightened people. This might be an oversimplification, but persons insanity or crazyness is basically a measure of the selectivity they pose over the incoming perception, including and especially ideas. When you are intelligent enough in a certain sense(have a good ability to concentrate) you can figure great, big and original ideas from that chaos in your brain. That same chaos of much nonsense would be only disturbing to someone else. This might be effected by upbringing; if you have a goosy-woosy mommy who wants his baby to talk whatever nonsense because it's his little baby and then realizes that he isn't a baby anymore but a grown up, well then you are in trouble.

IMO the insane part of their talk that other can spot is their sense of humour combined with wild imagination that is too weird to fit in to the classification of normal. Judging people by different sense of humour is dubious in scientific terms. This applies at least when talking about people on whose speech you need to spot those parts.

[TMM]

Insanity is just a prolonged state of mind, of perceiving reality, that is sufficiently different from the societal norm that it either becomes a problem adjusting to this norm, or that it makes other people uncomfortable and judgemental, separating themselves from this state. Some of these states are common enough that they have specific medical definitions. Psychedelics can be seen as a sort of temporary insanity, in this way, allowing oneself to view the world in ways otherwise impossible. Those who venture too far out too many times can sometimes retain large amounts of these altered states into their regular mentality, thus leaving themselves open for categorisation as 'insane.'

This isn't really a good answer to the question, just my musings on insanity. Please don't construe my statements as assertions of fact, it's just me jotting down my thought process.

[Shadowlord]

The higher the dose the greater the insights and the more I draw into myself and think and contemplate reality.
The most I have taken to take off was 15.
Not too much to take although there were promises that it can get way stronger.
have taken way more than that but after peaking. After peaking it doesn't matter how many I take, I just don't get off any more. Sometimes can't get off for a week or more. But then I've been cursed to be a hard head. 15 at one time if I waited for a month or two would probably be very intense. The biggest fear comes from taking it and wondering how hard it is all going to kick in! It's so hard to know how much to take to really breakthrough w/o having too intense and experience.
Like good old H.S. Thompson used to say; Buy the Ticket, Take the Ride.

[Shampoo]

Please immediately regard the rules relating to self-incrimination or you will find yourself potentially being removed from this site.

It sounds like your friend has experienced a bit of LSD tolerance. There is an informative thread regarding this, and could be potentially useful in saving your friend from having to eat 15 tabs to get off. Here is the tolerance thread: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6618

[Shadowlord]

SWIM has decided to see how similar doses are at 2 weeks apart instead of 1 week.
1 week has been reported as acceptable to still be able to fly but 2 weeks may prove a much more economical use of the ever more difficult to find molecule.

[Jatelka]

plur, may I respectfully suggest switching on a spell-checker?

It will enable others to understand your point much more easily

[Songcycle67]

Whenever SWIM gets a ten strip he tends to overdo it a bit. Last summer he ate half of one ten strip at about 100 ug of needlepoint LSD-25. This led him to have a quite bizarre experience of disassociation, whiting out, and just a general feeling of forbodance. However, because he had researched the subject well he was able to maintain his mental stability even 12 hours in.

Because the needlepoint was a rare thing indeed, over the next week he took two hits about three days later, then the other three hits about three days after that. All of these experiences were extremely spiritual for him and helped him through a lot of problems in his life.

Subsequently he has done this three or four more times with ten strips and he finds himself in agreeance with Mr. McKenna. SWIM would be lying if he didn't say that parts of those experiences were terrifying, but overall they were fun.

The biggest problem SWIM has with taking large amounts in such a manner is that it begins to lose its significance. SWIM doesn't believe that you gain much more than, say, what a beer binge would do for you spiritually, after the first week of dosing in this manner. However, SWIM has taken many a journey with the magic Lady, sometimes at doses approaching 1,000 ug and he seems fine aside from the obvious insights that come with such an experience.

The bottom line, according to SWIM, is that no matter if you take 70 ug once or 1,000 ug a hundred times your outlook on life is going to be changed.

There is baggage that comes with doing LSD too often according to him, but in the words of the immortal Ken Kesey (who incidentally preferred his trips at around the 500 ug range on Owsley's batches and lived on to write many great novels): "[with LSD] It's give and take."

I'd also like to say that, in SWIM's defense, although he has changed his mind slightly since that first ten strip, his experimentation was based on that old William Blake fave: "The path of excess leads to the palace of wisdom," but he would now ammend it with "The path of excess leads to the palace of wisdom... but heavy lies the crown of the wise prince."

Reputation Comments on this post:

interesting post, balanced, good quotes :)

[TimTrip]

Same here, SWIM meant that it depends on every single individual how much is too much. SWIM told me that he has already taken more than 1500 Mics at one time and he really didn´t feel like it was too much, he said that it was just the right dosage for really trippin out. Also he said that he thinks that it is more uncomfortable for him to take lower doses of acid, just because he thinks all the time about if it was enough, what isnßt good for his trip at all.