Would you have used Heroin if you'd had easier access to things like vicodin?

[bjarkii]

SWIM used heroin for a while and never got addicted and was always able to control himself, but quit after he was sold £90-worth of what he thought was heroin but what was actually plaster. SWIM is really starting to miss heroin but his old dealer has quit the game and wont give him numbers.

Anyway, SWIM's american friends were talking about how easy vicodin is to obtain over there, and SWIM was literally almost in tears remembering the good old days of snorting china white from his first score, and it seemed like those 4 bags would last forever. But then SWIM thought that if he had access to something softer like vicodin, he wouldnt feel the need to buy heroin again. dihydrocodeine is all SWIM can get easily and its much too weak and just makes SWIM depressed.

Who else here would never have got into heroin if they had had access to vicodin?

[Bodom]

Vicodin (Hydrocodone) doesn't cut it as much as oxycodone IMO.

[beentheredonethatagain]

^^^ oxycodone is physicaly more addictive than hydrocodone, there is the problem , after taking oxy for a short while one would be in withdraws if it were to stop suddenly.

sure people do get addicted to hydro but it wont be nearly as bad.

[mikebobjohn]

Originally Posted by beentheredonethatagain

^^^ oxycodone is physicaly more addictive than hydrocodone, there is the problem , after taking oxy for a short while one would be in withdraws if it were to stop suddenly.

sure people do get addicted to hydro but it wont be nearly as bad.

SWIM took 15mg three times a day for a week and had no withdrawl symptoms at all. Swim asked his talk pryer to going cold turkey off of it and swim's doc said one cannot get addicted to it in a week. and i didnt. maybe you're referring to snorting oxy? swim took it orally. maybe that's the difference. i dont know

[samuraigecko]

Oxy is better than Hydro for sure, one agrees there.

Would SWIM have never taken H if those other drugs were available to him at the time though?

No, he still would have taken it, Oxy comes close but still doesnt ever quite make it to where DiacetylMorphine is and never will.

Just ones opinion.

[I<3Salvia]

well short term, try some kratom. It's cheap, easy to get and it's legal usually. Swims friend was trying to detox off of heroin, and she used that for her pain and depression. She was detoxing hard and took 15-30 grams of leaf a day, she said it helped a lot. Since you're not addicted you shouldn't need more than 7-10 grams to increase your state of being. A lot more information is in the kratom section. Hope this helps.

[bjarkii]

Originally Posted by I<3Salvia

well short term, try some kratom. It's cheap, easy to get and it's legal usually. Swims friend was trying to detox off of heroin, and she used that for her pain and depression. She was detoxing hard and took 15-30 grams of leaf a day, she said it helped a lot. Since you're not addicted you shouldn't need more than 7-10 grams to increase your state of being. A lot more information is in the kratom section. Hope this helps.

SWIM tried kratom before heroin. SWIM finds even poor opiates like DHC and poppy pod tea more fulfilling that kratom. It takes 4-5g of good quality 15x powder for SWIM to get decent effects, and even then the high isnt that great. Really no substitute for heroin, but thank you for your suggestion anyway

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by bjarkii

SWIM tried kratom before heroin. SWIM finds even poor opiates like DHC and poppy pod tea more fulfilling that kratom. It takes 4-5g of good quality 15x powder for SWIM to get decent effects, and even then the high isnt that great. Really no substitute for heroin, but thank you for your suggestion anyway

One thought the idea was to ween and not looking for a high? therefor the suggestion would have been valid. Poppy tea is a good way to go also though if one is dosing ones self low and not doing it for a high. Nothing is ever going to be a substitute for Heroin, one might as well get used to that fact. But if the idea is to ween off so eventually no opiates are needed then getting high from said opiates should be the last thing on SWIY's mind.

hope this has been of help

[bjarkii]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One thought the idea was to ween and not looking for a high? therefor the suggestion would have been valid. Poppy tea is a good way to go also though if one is dosing ones self low and not doing it for a high. Nothing is ever going to be a substitute for Heroin, one might as well get used to that fact. But if the idea is to ween off so eventually no opiates are needed then getting high from said opiates should be the last thing on SWIY's mind.

hope this has been of help

Thank you for your suggestions, but weaning off isnt really what SWIM had in mind. SWIM is talking more about drugs that might be satisfying enough to keep you from ever even trying heroin, using the benefit of hindsight. SWIM doubts he would have tried H if he had been able to get hold of vicodin easily.

In any case, after a trip to Camden, SWIM was able to pick up some more delicious H after a long time of having nothing, and is very pleased.

[heroin_ed]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One thought the idea was to ween and not looking for a high? therefor the suggestion would have been valid. Poppy tea is a good way to go also though if one is dosing ones self low and not doing it for a high. Nothing is ever going to be a substitute for Heroin, one might as well get used to that fact. But if the idea is to ween off so eventually no opiates are needed then getting high from said opiates should be the last thing on SWIY's mind.

hope this has been of help

There are many things swim would happily substitute heroin for, especially cause they're pharmaceuticals and much safer to use. Said pharmaceuticals being: Dilaudid (hydromorphone), fentanyl, sufentanyl, oxycodone (mmmmm oc80), meperidine, and of course morphine.

Not suitable for heroin substitution:
codeine - ceiling effect.....

tramadol - Need i say more? This drug makes a swim feel like he is on some shitty otc sleep aid and amphetamine at the same time with a TINY touch of that opioid feeling. Why people abuse tramadol? We may never know.

Reputation Comments on this post:

bjarki here. loved your weak opiate dissing haha.

[I<3Salvia]

No problem man. Swim just wants to state for the record that he by no way meant kratom can substitute for heroin. He only was saying that it could help while you're working on getting a better substance. Happy hunting man.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by bjarkii

But then SWIM thought that if he had access to something softer like vicodin, he wouldnt feel the need to buy heroin again.

Who else here would never have got into heroin if they had had access to vicodin?

There is a greater variance than the 'soft-hard' gradient between opiates, as there are with all refined substances. For the complete opiate intoxication, ingestion of raw opium is simply unbeatable, as the alkaloid production of the poppy produces far more than shows up in Vicodin, Oxy, or even heroin. The process of refining selectively inhibits specific alkaloids while favoring and extracting others, resulting in a more 'controlled' intoxication. This is wildly useful in the field of medicine, as opium produces far more effects than are necessary for treatment. swim would certainly try heroin, even if it's derivatives were readily available, as the chemistry differs. Just as the mescaline experience leads many to explore peyote, with its various conjugate chemicals, the experience of refined opiate intoxication leads similarly to an exploration of the full gamut of opium, heroin, and its seemingly endless derivatives and refinements.

[pillpopper96743]

SWIM still thinks he wouldve used it even with no hydrocodone. At the age SWIM has trid it, he wouldve tried almost anything. SWIM now sticks to strictly opiates and the occassinal ganja and cocaine nights with his friends. No discociatives except for n20.

[samuraigecko]

Interestingly enough, a lot of people are under the impression that Heroin is not used in hospice care. DiacetylMorphine was used extensivly in hospice care and ER situations. The various trend of "run throughs" which were performed by junkies made them "stop using it in hospitals" for a time (although they never really stopped, they just let it be known that is what they did and why). But DiacetylMorphine is used a fair bit in the ER especially when IMMEDIATE pain relief is needed.

One time after a car accident and one had some pretty bad injuries one was rushed to hospital. In the helicopter on the way one was given a shot of something and "felt" that incriminating and all to familiar taste creeping up the back of his throat. One turned his head to see the paramedic putting the single use (red labeled - as all narcotics are in this particular country) syringe into a sharps disposal unit. One asked him what it was (even though he already knew) and the paramedic replied

"it is a quicker acting Morphine, you should already be feeling better" (which one was)

one said in return "DiacetylMorphine?"

The paramedic looked at one in a funny way and said
"Yes, how did you know that?"

So one told him.

Heh, just thought others may find that interesting.

[Archenemy]

What does SWIY mean by "run throughs" which were "preformed by junkies"?

I was under the impresion to get Diamorphine one would have to be seriously injured or in great pain. Otherwise, I.M. Morphine / I.V. Morphine / I.V. Hydromorphone

At least that is SWIMs experience with E.R. visits and Opiates.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by Archenemy

. . . What does SWIY mean by "run throughs" which were "preformed by junkies"? . . .

A "run through" is basically a stealing raid. It used to be a more common occurrence back when the use of DAM was well known. In a few countries they well publicized the discontinuance of DAM as to deter the said addicts from doing this when desperate for a fix, which "sort of" worked as it is not such a common occurrence now in a lot of those countries and security has become much better.

Originally Posted by Archenemy

. . . I was under the impresion to get Diamorphine one would have to be seriously injured or in great pain. Otherwise, I.M. Morphine / I.V. Morphine / I.V. Hydromorphone. . .

Exactly right, that is why in this and other threads one mentioned that it is only used in ER situations where IMMEDIATE emergency pain relief is needed. As far as one knows it is not used in America at all now as it was discontinued a few years back. One has been told from a source in the field that they now use MAM instead. One is going to put a post in the opiate chemistry thread about this very soon, when all relevant data is compiled along with sources and links.

Hope this has been of help

[Archenemy]

thanks for clearing that bit up

[cz-one]

Here in the uk even in palliative care diamorphine is being used less and less,and in ER acute pain situations you get either iv morphine/iv ketamine or iv fentanyl,as for using vicodin rather than heroin,in my opinion,once you've experienced that heroin high,all the other opiates,especially the weaker ones,will always be a second best,and as its that high your going for by taking an opiate,your always going to be disappointed doing anything else,but thats just my opinion.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by cz-one

Here in the uk even in palliative care diamorphine is being used less and less,and in ER acute pain situations you get either iv morphine/iv ketamine or iv fentanyl,as for using vicodin rather than heroin,in my opinion,once you've experienced that heroin high,all the other opiates,especially the weaker ones,will always be a second best,and as its that high your going for by taking an opiate,your always going to be disappointed doing anything else,but thats just my opinion.

This is actually a little wrong, DiacetylMorphine is still used extensively in the UK for EMERGENCY pain relief situations only. After the initial use of DiacetylMorphine for that emergency pain relief the person is then put on a regime of Morphine as per normal. This actually comes from insider information.

Hope this has been of help

[cz-one]

i work in a major west london hospital and the only thing you'd get diamorphine for isA)if your already being prescribed it for some condition or for acute analgesia for sickle cell crisis,and compounded with morphine being cheaper and the production problems in the uk over the past 2 years the protocols now favour morphine sulphate,but this is just london,it may be different elsewhere,i only got morphine for kidney stones recently and an acqaintance who busted up his hip trying to evade being raided only got morphine too,and a poxy 10mg at that!!!!

[samuraigecko]

Ahh. Good information if one does indeed work in a hospital there.

SWIM knows someone in the same business (in the same place too actually) and says that DiacetylMorphine is kept for the specific ER purpose one mentioned ONLY.

Perhaps things are starting to change a little in London?
It wouldnt be the first time they have taken DiacetylMorphine from the masses. It has actually occurred a few times for a few different (and sometimes totally unreasonable) reasons.

[Psych0naut]

I think morphine is the only strong opioid available intravenously for severe acute pain in the majority of the world. There are a few countries which have a stronger option though, instead of diacetylmorphine hydromorphone is also available intravenously for severe acute pain in a few countries.

To get back on topic though, SWIM cannot get vicodin since it does not exist here, but he has always had easier access to other opioids like morphine and tramadol, and even some oxycodone before he tried Heroin the first time. To this moment on, Heroin is still the most difficult opioid for him to aquire compared to it's pharmaceutical counterparts.

[Archenemy]

Well, back to the main topic of this story!

Short answer... yes. Nothing can compare to Diamorphine.
I.V. Hydromorphone is pretty good tho.
SWIM will agree with top post tho... Hydrocodone products are VERY easily prescribed in the U.S.
Mostly Hydrocodone 5mg / APAP 500mg (Vicodin) is given out for any little pain. At least in SWIM's experience in Southern California. 7.5mg/750mg's and 10mg/325mg's are also very common for minor ailments. Hell, even Oxycodone 5mg / APAP 325mg (Percocet) is given out like candy. Along with the 10mg / 325mg Perc's

From what SWIM hears, the U.S. prescribes the most opiates out of any country in the world.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

SWIM has never found another opioid that could replace diacetylmorphine for him, fentanyl patches being the exception but they aren't easily found here. Oxycodone / crushed Oxycontin comes close but not quite there and those are really expensive here. In general it has become harder to get a prescription for opioids here, SWIM thinks most doctors have learned from their mistakes of the past, being a bit too eager with the prescription block has resulted in a lot of benzo and in particular ketobemidon addicts ( a synth. opioid about twice the potency of morphine with some added NMDA-antagonist activity, which is only prescribed in scandinavia more or less). SWIM has only tried it once while hospitalized, and was actually despite the circumstances a quite euphoric experience. If you go to the doctor now a days with two broken ribs and a sawed of leg, he'll send you home with a 10 pack of paracetamol or some weak tramadol if in luck, well maybe a bit exaggerated but no smoke without a fire. SWIM has made it even harder for himself to get a prescription for 'abuseable' meds, as he was young and naive once and went to the doctor to get some mirtazapine as a sleeping aid for his cannabis withdrawal symptoms, this was one of the most stupid things SWIM has ever done, but oh well he was ~16 at the time, first of all there was no help to get, other than an address and phonenumber for a substance abuse center which wasn't exactly what SWIM had had in mind, secondly the incedent stigmatized SWIM as a drugabuser for all eternity :/ So thank god for the black market, heroin is easily found a bit too easy some might say.

[bjarkii]

People seem to be getting the impression that i'm suggesting vikes as an alternative to heroin. i'm not. SWIM has never done vicodin, but he has known the beauty of heroin and poppy pod tea. Of course nothing else will ever satisfy SWIM as much as heroin and he couldnt just switch onto something else, but what i'm asking you to do is to put yourself back into the position where you had NEVER TRIED heroin. Ask yourself, if you had never tried H, would you have settled for vikes, or wouldn't they have been enough?

Personally, the reason SWIM got into heroin wasnt because it's THE BIG opiate. SWIM would have been perfectly happy with a nice steady supply of vicodin. The reason SWIM got into heroin was because CWEs on codeine are too time consuming and not rewarding enough, and SWIM wanted something better. SWIM would have settled for vicodin, percocet, poppy pod tea (if he had access to pods back then which he didnt). SWIM only chose heroin because softer opiates weren't available.

What I'm asking you is not "could vicodin replace heroin for you", i'm asking you if you'd have ever tried heroin if you had easy access to the drug "one step down".

Sorry if i sound angry, i'm really not, i should have been more clear in the OP, i just think some of you are answering a slightly different question, probably because i wasnt clear enough.

Anyway, i hope that's cleared things up for some of you!

Reputation Comments on this post:

your thread asks a valid question