FUCK Buprenorphine

[Brettfavor]

It has been over 24 hours since SWIMS last dose and SWIM wants to get high so bad. SWIM has two OC 80's, but SWIM has to wait AT LEAST another 24 hours prolly more like 48 and it SUCKS so bad.


discuss.

[razorwiredildo]

that sucks. Why does swiy have to wait so long?
If going without is so bad, then maybe swiy should consider taking a break for a week or two so he still knows he can live without it.

[Brettfavor]

It takes 72 hours for ALL of the buprenorphine to get out of your body and it binds to the receptors more readily than other opiates so you can't get high on other opiates while on buprenorphine. So you must wait until ALL of the medicine has left your receptors. Desaturation only occurs after like 16 hours or so. If SWIM did the OC now he would BARELY feel it if anything. At 48 SWIM would feel it some but not completely. 72 hours later SWIM would prolly feel it all the way.

[infekt]

swim has gotten high off heroin plenty of times after 8 mg of Suboxone, usually about 5 hours

[Brettfavor]

Not calling SWIY a liar but it is scientifically impossible to do so. Some say they can get the "rush" at first but do not get high afterwards. I suppose if you took one 8 mg dose and that was the only dose you had taken in weeks then you "might" be able to get a little high because your receptor would not be COMPLETELY saturated therefore SOME of the H could attach and bring about a minute amount of euphoria. However, the half-life of bupe is 37 hours and I have read the DEsaturation point is around 16 hours. But I think that 8 mgs of bupe has enough of a "blocking" effect to keep you from getting even a little high for at least 16 hours. Not being able to get completely high (ei the way you would if you had never ingested bupe) for around 72 hours.

Now some have said that at low doses that don't completely have a "blocking" effects such as 2-4mgs you can get high later that day(say 8-12 hours later). but that also cannot be a daily dose for the bupe because after only a week on bupe you have more than double your daily dose in your blood stream because of the "stacking" effect that occurs with drugs with longer that 12 hours half lives.

If it were a ONE TIME 8 mg dose and you slammed a really high amount of heroin(a lot more than your normal fix) 5 hours later I SUPPOSE you could get the rush and perhaps a bit of a high afterwards. But IMO you are really wasting $$ and/or drugs. If it was a one time 8mg dose of bupe I would wait AT LEAST 24 hours. Now if it is daily usage even at only 4-8mgs a day it can take minimum 72 hours for you to be able to get high like normal and EVEN THEN it would not be complete saturation on your drug of choice because with daily use it can up to 2 weeks for your body to be completely rid of ALL of the bupe(this of course depends on several things mainly your metabolism). I have read daily users of bupe must wait 3-5 days since their last dose in order to be able to reap the full benefits of any opiate.

Now SWIY may have gotten a little high or gotten a rush due to the injection route, but SWIY wasted the H and wouldve been better suited waited at least 24 hours. I would never call anyone a liar, but sometimes we forget how surprisingly well the placebo effect works. If SWIY did INJECT a large amount of H and it was a one time dose of bupe the you may have gotten a tad bit high due to lack of COMPLETE saturation of your receptors from the bupe. But SWIY did waste your H. And I am not trying to start an argument here. Just started this post to vent my frustration, but I feel that I have a duty to include accurate and scientific info in my posts. Not only is this scientifically true, but it is also based on SWIM's personal trial and error. As well as MANY others trial and error which SWIM vehemently trusts.

[sarbanes]

Originally Posted by Brettfavor

Not calling SWIY a liar but it is scientifically impossible to do so. Some say they can get the "rush" at first but do not get high afterwards. I suppose if you took one 8 mg dose and that was the only dose you had taken in weeks then you "might" be able to get a little high because your receptor would not be COMPLETELY saturated therefore SOME of the H could attach and bring about a minute amount of euphoria. However, the half-life of bupe is 37 hours and I have read the DEsaturation point is around 16 hours. But I think that 8 mgs of bupe has enough of a "blocking" effect to keep you from getting even a little high for at least 16 hours. Not being able to get completely high (ei the way you would if you had never ingested bupe) for around 72 hours.

Now some have said that at low doses that don't completely have a "blocking" effects such as 2-4mgs you can get high later that day(say 8-12 hours later). but that also cannot be a daily dose for the bupe because after only a week on bupe you have more than double your daily dose in your blood stream because of the "stacking" effect that occurs with drugs with longer that 12 hours half lives.

If it were a ONE TIME 8 mg dose and you slammed a really high amount of heroin(a lot more than your normal fix) 5 hours later I SUPPOSE you could get the rush and perhaps a bit of a high afterwards. But IMO you are really wasting $$ and/or drugs. If it was a one time 8mg dose of bupe I would wait AT LEAST 24 hours. Now if it is daily usage even at only 4-8mgs a day it can take minimum 72 hours for you to be able to get high like normal and EVEN THEN it would not be complete saturation on your drug of choice because with daily use it can up to 2 weeks for your body to be completely rid of ALL of the bupe(this of course depends on several things mainly your metabolism). I have read daily users of bupe must wait 3-5 days since their last dose in order to be able to reap the full benefits of any opiate.

Now SWIY may have gotten a little high or gotten a rush due to the injection route, but SWIY wasted the H and wouldve been better suited waited at least 24 hours. I would never call anyone a liar, but sometimes we forget how surprisingly well the placebo effect works. If SWIY did INJECT a large amount of H and it was a one time dose of bupe the you may have gotten a tad bit high due to lack of COMPLETE saturation of your receptors from the bupe. But SWIY did waste your H. And I am not trying to start an argument here. Just started this post to vent my frustration, but I feel that I have a duty to include accurate and scientific info in my posts. Not only is this scientifically true, but it is also based on SWIM's personal trial and error. As well as MANY others trial and error which SWIM vehemently trusts.

you don't know what your talking about. 8mg buph is very likely not enough to fill up every mU receptor, so theres plenty of room for the morphine to bind as well, with such a dose of buprenorphine. and especially after some time has passed (modest 5 hours in this case). this is one hole in your mean argument.....if yo like, I can point out a number of other flaws in your thinking. no ones lying here, guys just posting what works for him.

Reputation Comments on this post:

You said what I was thinking

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by sarbanes

you don't know what your talking about. 8mg buph is very likely not enough to fill up every mU receptor, so theres plenty of room for the morphine to bind as well, with such a dose of buprenorphine. and especially after some time has passed (modest 5 hours in this case). this is one hole in your mean argument.....if yo like, I can point out a number of other flaws in your thinking. no ones lying here, guys just posting what works for him.

what is swiy talking about? makes no sense.

[sarbanes]

Originally Posted by JaWill88

what is swiy talking about? makes no sense.

Swee swiy swim, swee swat swoe swee? Perhaps it makes no sense to you. Someone is saying that someone else is lying (or not being honest) by claiming that they can get an opioid high (from a different opioid than buprenorphine), while under the influence of buprenorphine. The crux of their argument (if you can call it that) rests on the fact that buprenorphine has the ability to displace other opioids from opioid receptors. Therefore how could one get high if buprenorphine displaced other opioids (is their contention)? There are so many responses to this simplistic, unqualified contention. 1st, the dose of bup here was lower than its ceiling dose, so the full potential effects of the buph effects were not felt, which translates to not all the receptors being filled by the buprenorphine, which means there were plenty of bare receptors for the other opioid to attach to. And this is just the tip of the iceberg - the most basic flaw in their contention. Sorry, I didn't think you would understand. Ah well If you still don’t get it, maybe I’ll draw you a picture. Once you understand this part, we can get into the many more (and more complex) contributing factors, as the one I pointed out (above), can be a biggie, but is only the tip of the veritable ice berg.

[JaWill88]

yeah swim is on suboxone and tried a huge shot of dope. all he got was the slightest hint of a rush, all though it was definately there. it faded in like a minute and then NOTHING. no high whatsoever. swim knows it really sucks ass to be on bup when swim still wants to use sometimes.

[fnord]

is there any nausea when using opiates with bup still in your system?

[moda00]

Not in swim's past experience. It's not like antabuse, where you will actually get ill.. although they like you to think that

Originally Posted by fnord

is there any nausea when using opiates with bup still in your system?

[Laudaphun]

I've read that a complete blocking effect occurs at around 12mg suboxone... If this is a single dose or a daily dose, I don't know.

SWIM has taken "usually" 8mg suboxone per day for around 2 years and it takes her around 84 hours from her last suboxone dose before she can be sure that she will get good and high from oxycodone.

At 72 hours, sometimes SWIM can get the full effect from oxycodone and other times SWIM has had it mostly blocked. SWIM originally figured her magic number to be 72 hours and waited this period of time with 5 40mg oxys (brandname) and systematically insufflated one after another over a period of 1-2 hours and barely felt it... as the day went on SWIM grew itchy and even a bit nauseous, but no euphoria.

Other than that, SWIM has never experienced any nausea when using opiates with bupe in her system.

[dude]

Swim had a wild experiance with Suboxone. Swim is prescribed 12 roxy 30's per day. So Swim has a very high tolerance. Well Swim wanted to lower his tolerance and thought he would try Sub's to do it. Well one morning when his blood level was low with oxycodone he placed an 8mg under his tongue. In around 30 minutes swim felt horrible and felt some withdraw. Well since swim was dumb and inexperianced with sub's he panic'd and snorted a half of a Roxy 30mg. Well this instantly sent swim into full blown withdraw. Swim is experianced with withdraw but let him tell you that this was the worst he ever felt. Well swim must have snorted a dozen roxy 30's before he felt well enough to make it through the day. To say the least swim was screwed up for a couple days. Swim did do some reading before attempting this but swim thinks his tolerance was so high that there wasn't much help out there. So swim hopes this helps someone out there and swim would also like anyone who knows to explain what the hell happened.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by dude

Swim had a wild experiance with Suboxone. Swim is prescribed 12 roxy 30's per day. So Swim has a very high tolerance. Well Swim wanted to lower his tolerance and thought he would try Sub's to do it. Well one morning when his blood level was low with oxycodone he placed an 8mg under his tongue. In around 30 minutes swim felt horrible and felt some withdraw. Well since swim was dumb and inexperianced with sub's he panic'd and snorted a half of a Roxy 30mg. Well this instantly sent swim into full blown withdraw. Swim is experianced with withdraw but let him tell you that this was the worst he ever felt. Well swim must have snorted a dozen roxy 30's before he felt well enough to make it through the day. To say the least swim was screwed up for a couple days. Swim did do some reading before attempting this but swim thinks his tolerance was so high that there wasn't much help out there. So swim hopes this helps someone out there and swim would also like anyone who knows to explain what the hell happened.

Actually, 8mg of buprenorphine is a pretty strong dose... a lot stronger than most people give it credit for. In Europe, it is made in 0.2mg sublingual tablets, but it is used for pain at this dose. Buprenorphine has a much higher binding affinity than does oxycodone. For this reason, when you took that 8mg suboxone the buprenorphine entered the picture and knocked all of the oxycodone from your receptors... so you went from having "low" levels of oxycodone in your system to NO oxycodone in your system. Problem is that it is only a partial agonist at the mu receptor, meaning that even though it displaced the oxycodone, it does not activate this receptor to the extent the oxycodone did, therefore it threw you into a withdrawl.

With your body dependent on 360mg oxycodone per day, you would have needed to wait longer before taking the suboxone... pretty much almost until you are sick. People with large habits(especially methadone), often have difficulty in switching from a full agonist to buprenorphine at first, while people with lesser dependencies are able to switch to suboxone with a much larger margin for error. Many people can take a suboxone at the first sign of discomfort and the suboxone will work like a charm, while people such as yourself who have become accustomed to higher doses of a full agonist must wait until they are quite uncomfortable if not into full blown withdrawl. This complication is most often seen in patients switching from methadone to suboxone. After the buprenorphine was in your system, it's 36 hour half life prevented much of the oxycodone you consumed from binding for a couple days at least.

[dude]

Thanks SwiLaudaphun. So I don't need to give up on Subs forever then? So if I do decide to quit Oxy's at this level, a doctor can help me with Subs? Even though as you say "Suboxone doesn't bind to the mu receptor" I still will feel "normal" on the proper dose of Suboxone? Or will I have to suffer some and adapt? Thanks

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by dude

Thanks SwiLaudaphun. So I don't need to give up on Subs forever then? So if I do decide to quit Oxy's at this level, a doctor can help me with Subs? Even though as you say "Suboxone doesn't bind to the mu receptor" I still will feel "normal" on the proper dose of Suboxone? Or will I have to suffer some and adapt? Thanks

Buprenorphine does bind to the mu receptor, it just doesn't activate it as much as oxycodone does. Oxycodone is a full agonist at the mu receptor while buprenorphine is a partial agonist. This just means that while the binding affinity (it's attraction) for the mu receptor is much stronger, it only partially activates or stimulates the receptor.

I do think a doctor could likely work with you and find a dose that would keep you comfortable. Typically, at first they do what is called an induction where they administer suboxone to you while you are in the doctor's office. They will wait a little bit and see how you feel, and give you more until you feel comfortable. This might take up to 2 hours or so, but it is probably the best way to find a workable dose. 360mg/day is a pretty heavy dose.

On the other hand, suboxone does not work for everyone. Some people need methadone which can be a real pain in butt to get everyday if have to get it from a clinic. On the otherhand, if you are prescribed x12 30mg oxycodone pills each day, then you must have an issue with pain which makes acquiring methadone much easier. Some doctors will prescribe methadone and then additional oxycodone to take for breakthrough pain. I've read many accounts of chronic pain patients that go from high doses of oxycodone each day to methadone and oxycodone. But once a portion of the oxycodone is replaced by methadone most of the patients will say that the oxycodone loses most of it's euphoria.

With suboxone, it is harder to switch from a full agonist such as oxycodone to suboxone(buprenorphine) than it is to switch from suboxone back to oxycodone. Some people report that buprenorphine helps with pain, and others say that it does not... so that might be an issue.

Most of the time, the naloxone that is in suboxone has no effect on people, but if you go to a doctor, I would request that they do your first week or so with subutex(buprenorphine without the naloxone) just in case you are hypersensitive to it as it can absorb into the GI tract to an extent.

[JJx23]

After 72 hours, opiates will work it's full effect. If you are taking minute pieces of the Suboxone then it could be even sooner, but 72 hours is the max, although around 36 hours is the half-life, the full medication of Suboxone would be out of your bloodstream in 72 hours. Once that is done with, taking opiates will help your pain to it's fullest effect.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by JJx23

After 72 hours, opiates will work it's full effect. If you are taking minute pieces of the Suboxone then it could be even sooner, but 72 hours is the max, although around 36 hours is the half-life, the full medication of Suboxone would be out of your bloodstream in 72 hours. Once that is done with, taking opiates will help your pain to it's fullest effect.

This depends on the person. There is a big difference between someone who takes a suboxone once in a while and someone who has taken it everyday for a couple years. Suppose the half life is 36 hours (for the average person), and that person takes it everyday (24 hours).

The buildup contributes to how long it will take for opiates to work. SWIM has performed a series of "experiments" on herself each month after 2 years of daily suboxone use. At 72 hours SWIM cannot be sure to get effects from a full agonist. Perhaps SWIM's body has a tolerance from the suboxone, which is probable. I'm not saying that you cannot get the full effects from a fulll agonist at 72 hours, just saying that in SWIM's case, she may or may not get any effects at 72 hours from a high dose of a full agonist.

This would make for a good poll! But there are more variables to consider which would make it harder to get an accurate vote. SWIM has wasted a lot of money trying to figure out her answer. Would you poll daily suboxone users, infrequent suboxone users, or everyone together? This would be of importance not only to people looking for euphoria, but regular suboxone users who need surgery or something like that.

[JJx23]

Well you could very much be right also, but I know someone who is on Suboxone and he asked this very question and after 72 hours, a majority of people will be able to take opiates, they unbind from the receptors at that time allowing the opiates to take over. Now like I said, give or take a few hours, maybe a day?? But after four days a pain-killer\narcotic will work, that's just what I have heard from a Dr. or someone who asked the Dr. this question. This person is also highly into medicine.. Just letting you all know because it is good to know.

Originally Posted by Laudaphun

This depends on the person. There is a big difference between someone who takes a suboxone once in a while and someone who has taken it everyday for a couple years. Suppose the half life is 36 hours (for the average person), and that person takes it everyday (24 hours).

The buildup contributes to how long it will take for opiates to work. SWIM has performed a series of "experiments" on herself each month after 2 years of daily suboxone use. At 72 hours SWIM cannot be sure to get effects from a full agonist. Perhaps SWIM's body has a tolerance from the suboxone, which is probable. I'm not saying that you cannot get the full effects from a fulll agonist at 72 hours, just saying that in SWIM's case, she may or may not get any effects at 72 hours from a high dose of a full agonist.

This would make for a good poll! But there are more variables to consider which would make it harder to get an accurate vote. SWIM has wasted a lot of money trying to figure out her answer. Would you poll daily suboxone users, infrequent suboxone users, or everyone together? This would be of importance not only to people looking for euphoria, but regular suboxone users who need surgery or something like that.

Reputation Comments on this post:

On the mark

[Laudaphun]

Well you could very much be right also, but I know someone who is on Suboxone and he asked this very question and after 72 hours, a majority of people will be able to take opiates, they unbind from the receptors at that time allowing the opiates to take over. Now like I said, give or take a few hours, maybe a day?? But after four days a pain-killer\narcotic will work, that's just what I have heard from a Dr. or someone who asked the Dr. this question. This person is also highly into medicine.. Just letting you all know because it is good to know.

I think that's probably as accurate as an answer as you can get, at least for a daily suboxone user... SWIM has little personal experience with the blocking effect before she began daily doses. Something else that SWIM may try, now that she has cut down(or attempted to do so) to 4mg/day instead of 8mg. If SWIM can hold out and get comfortable on 4mg/day perhaps she can perform more tests at a lower dosage. 1 week from today will be SWIM's 2 year bupe anniversary! She has an appt in 2 days and she's going to inquire how long SWIM needs to discontinue suboxone usage before using a full agonist due to a possible upcoming oral surgery (wisdom teeth never came through completely and are crooked). SWIM is horribly afraid of the dentist's office and just the idea of having 4 teeth cut out from inside her gums sends a chill down her spine.

Oh yah, if SWIM is able to make it 4 days (96 hours) with no suboxone, she can most definitely get the effects. The trouble for SWIM is actually making it those 96 hours. It seems to SWIM that from right around the 72 hour mark, the blocking effect rapidly diminishes. SWIM's withdrawl symptoms from the bupe seem to start somewhere between 84-96 hours (I mean the real sickness, not just the yawns and tearing eyes). Keep in mind that these are SWIM's personal body chemistry and her reactions.

[JJx23]

Well normally you should start feeling withdrawals after about 72 hours my buddy said. Um... SWIM might be taking a bit more and for a longer duration so that is why SWIM is feeling the total withdrawal from Suboxone. Anyhow, once those withdrawals go into full effect, the brain is asking for opiates so SWIM can tag those opiates on to the cravings SWIM's brain is asking for and it shall be fine. Hope everything goes well. I am just ranting as I know someone who is on Suboxone and his Dr. is very smart about this.

Regards

Originally Posted by Laudaphun

I think that's probably as accurate as an answer as you can get, at least for a daily suboxone user... SWIM has little personal experience with the blocking effect before she began daily doses. Something else that SWIM may try, now that she has cut down(or attempted to do so) to 4mg/day instead of 8mg. If SWIM can hold out and get comfortable on 4mg/day perhaps she can perform more tests at a lower dosage. 1 week from today will be SWIM's 2 year bupe anniversary! She has an appt in 2 days and she's going to inquire how long SWIM needs to discontinue suboxone usage before using a full agonist due to a possible upcoming oral surgery (wisdom teeth never came through completely and are crooked). SWIM is horribly afraid of the dentist's office and just the idea of having 4 teeth cut out from inside her gums sends a chill down her spine.

Oh yah, if SWIM is able to make it 4 days (96 hours) with no suboxone, she can most definitely get the effects. The trouble for SWIM is actually making it those 96 hours. It seems to SWIM that from right around the 72 hour mark, the blocking effect rapidly diminishes. SWIM's withdrawl symptoms from the bupe seem to start somewhere between 84-96 hours (I mean the real sickness, not just the yawns and tearing eyes). Keep in mind that these are SWIM's personal body chemistry and her reactions.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Yes fuck buprenorphine!It is trash.Nothing but a tool of the oppressors who think that being able to feel good should be a crime.Swim hopes that one day when people rise up and get tired of many forms of oppression inculding the war on drugs addicts rise up and throw whole suboxone shipments into huge bonfires.Sort of like a Boston Suboxone Party.

Reputation Comments on this post:

i'm starting to feel the same way

[SeconalClerek]

Does anyone actually know how much buprenorphine it takes to fully inhibit the binding of opiates of lesser affinity? The half life or elimination isnt a time scale to judge maximal to minimal inhibition of binding of other drugs. Its perfectly feasbile that even at T=00 of Buprenorphine dosing one could dose with morphine or a derivative and become intoxicted as long as the buprenorphine dose is low enough which may be 8 or even 16mg, I'd say no more. 32mg is said to be buprenorphines maximal thereputic dose though still may not be the dose of maximal inhibition or binding.

[dyingtomorrow]

SWIM's been "on" bupe for 2 years, mostly selling them for heroin money though. Anyways in his experience, at around 4mg the high is no where near as good. It's not a proper heroin high. It's just delirium and nodding basically, but not feeling euphoria or buzzed - which is shit.

If you want to feel a rush, you need to be at like 1-2mg.

But yes, FUCK Buprenorphine, SWIM agrees full heartedly with the thread title.