Painkiller suggestions **PLEASE**

[jimmyschmeikeluuno]

So far my doctor has prescribed me subotex, tramadol, 12.5 mcg 72 hours duragesic fentanyl patches, oxycodone, MS. Contin, and Vicodin for my chronic stomach pain problems.

One pill of the buphrenorphine (or Subutex) seemed to help me the most with my pain, but it also made it nearly impossible for me to pee, so I stopped it after a trial of one pill.

Oxycodone did the second most; I'd switch off taking 10mg every 6 hours with 15mg every 6 hours.

Tramadol did the third most. I take two 50mg pills every 4 hours - up to 400mg per 24 hours.

1 pill of vicodn, and one pill of 15mg ms contin (morphine time release) didn't do anything, so i never bothered taking more.

today i tried for the first time the fentanyl patch, and its been 13 hours since i first put it in on. it wasnt doing anything when i first put it on but now everythings starting to seem really stuffy. im also really sleep deprived so...

anyway, given what ive tried already, what drugs would you suggest i ask my doctor about? my doctor is the type to let me try something usually as long as i bring it up and really push at it. hes going to tell me ive tried everything there is unless i request other stuff... so - what else is there?

I'm wondering if maybe i should try methadone since the buphrenorphine helped with the pain... maybe the methadone will help with pain but not give me urinary retention.

anyway aside from methadone, what other opiates are out there that I still could try?

keep in mind. if there's nothing that will help with my pain more than oxy, for exampple, than what else is tehre that will at least put me in a blissful state so that i dont mind the pain as much? because i havent really been getting any sort of high or euphoria from these drugs.. just a little pain relief in my stomach, but not too much.

Suggestions?

[JaWill88]

maybe a higher dose of morphine. swim would rather have morphine over oxycodone any day of the week. it's odd that of all the opioids, buprenorphine helped the most. it probably has the weakest analgesic effect of all opioids there is, at least of all the ones swiy mentioned. what dose of buprenorphine was swiy perscribed? it may be a higher dose in terms of equivelancy than the other meds. morphine or fentanyl should kill pain more than buprenorphine so maybe swiy has to get the dose adjusted. if swim could get any of those meds he would get morphine. but knowing the dose swiy is on will help swim determine swiys situation.

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thats pretty sound advise

[JaWill88]

also, swiy could try hydromorphone (dilaudid) or hydromorphone or something like that. but it doesn't seem that the problem is a strong enough pain killer, it seems the problem is not a strong enough dose. that would explain all of this.

[samuraigecko]

One would be inclined to stick with the Oxy, Morphine sucks in comparison in SWIMs opinion., but thats just his opinion.

But as much as one likes to help, this is the poppy section of the forum, this is more in place in the general opiates or in the morphine threads.

Hope this has helped

[paranoid_android]

See if you can get a time-release form of hydromorphone. This is one of the most easily abused and addictive opiates available, and many junkies prefer it over heroin. Still, I've heard it's quite powerful for pain relief, so it's definitely worth a try. Unfortunately, taking it as a pill doesn't get it absorbed nearly as well as injecting it, so you might need a higher dose than what he would be inclined to prescribe, unless you're up for shooting it. Just keep in mind that hydromorphone is pretty short-acting, so a time-release form of the medicine would be your best bet.

EDIT: I think the time-release form of hydromorphone (palladone) isn't sold in the US anymore. If taken with alcohol it will release everything at once, often causing a fatal overdose. You'll have to go for the instant release form then.

[mikebobjohn]

(hey- this is the OP. every account i make keeps getitng hacked with some porn virus and i keep having to make new ones)

Anyway-

What's the difference between Hydromorphone and stuff like Oxy, Morphine, etc?
And is methadone any good? My friend last night who's used heroin before said she actually got scared when she took methadone because she didn't expect it to be so strong (in comparison to oxy or morphine). She said she was really surprised that's what they give to recovering heroin addicts because in her opinion it reacted with her just as strongly as heroin does.
So.. im wondering if thats just a weird reaction to the drug or if its reawlly that strong.

As for the fentanyl, the low dose patch i was on actually started scaring me so i ended up taking it off. i remember when i had it on after about 15 hours i tried pinching myself as hard as i could and it didnt even really hurt. along with feeling kind of number and duller, there was just like no euphoria at all... almost a disphoria... i felt kinda scared... i kept getting this creepy nautious feeling running throuhg my body... it definitely wasnt that enjoyable, though it might have been cool if i wasnt a paranoid (i always get paranoid on drugs that trip people out - even/especially MJ).

Anyway, im interested in this hydromorphone thing. what i really want is a painkiller that also gives me a good opium/heroin-like **euphoria** (but maybe less subtle... or at least... basically i want to feel as good as possible without worrying about my pulse or my breathing... in gereral im a worrier, so.. ii dont know how strong id be comfortable with... i feel like if it was euphoric enough and didnt like make me feel weird, then i wouldnt get paranoid... anyway,) like i was saying, a euphoria that one can get without having to snort or inject anything... is hydromorphone the answer then? what are some drug name examples of it?

anyway, my dosages-

subutex (buphrenorphine) - i forget, but knowing my doctor it was probably the lowest dose that the pill comes in, and i only took one of them.

vicodin - just one of the lowest dose pills

ms contin (time release morphine) - one 15mg pill

oxycodone (instant release) - two 5mg pills every 6 hours, and i also tried three 5mg pills (at once) every 6 hours. so, it varied from 10mg every six hours to 15mg every six hours. the doctor said i could try 20mg if i wanted to, but a few of the times that i took only 10mg, i felt more of an effect than i did when i took 15mg, so i was worried the pills werent getting absorbed right or something, so i never went to 20... i guess i could try that though. just my doctor said that going up dosages probably wont do anything more for my pain, and will only increase side effects

fentanyl - 72 hour duragesic 12.5mcg patch

[beentheredonethatagain]

I would advise to stay away from the methadone for pain treatment, it is too dangerous, due to it staying in your system long after the analgesic value has gone. It has a very long half life

[samuraigecko]

Oxycontin 20mg is a good starting point. It seems one not only wants the pain relief but some type of euphoria also. This is not really to advisable if one has a serious pain problem as it will lead one down a road of continuous abuse to the point where doctors will not give SWIY above what he wants and SWIY finds no other alternative that to buy Heroin. Looking for euphoria in this instance is not a good thing, if it was SWIM whom had the chronic pain he would not be interested in euphoria but rather just getting rid of the pain.

There are also reverse effects. In some people these substances do not cause euphoria but rather a "wrong" or panic feeling. Its called "paradoxical effect" - this is where a drug has a contradictory effect to what it normally has on the majority of people (well what the medical community consider to be the majority anyway). So there is a chance that SWIY is experiencing the paradoxical effect rather than the euphoric effect. If one were to have no opiate tolerance at all and took 15mg of Oxy then one should have felt pretty damn good for that first time (although they would have wanted more). A lot of people are fairly comfortable with less than that.

MScontin is the gold standard to which other opiate/opioid drugs are measured. If one were in the same position as SWIY then he would be content with either Oxycontin 20mg or MScontin 30mg but would be happier if he got stronger dosages of either of those two.

Hydromorphone would be great also if SWIY could get something time released in this form, but all in all one would be happiest with the Oxycontin or MScontin.

[mikebobjohn]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Oxycontin 20mg is a good starting point. It seems one not only wants the pain relief but some type of euphoria also. This is not really to advisable if one has a serious pain problem as it will lead one down a road of continuous abuse to the point where doctors will not give SWIY above what he wants and SWIY finds no other alternative that to buy Heroin. Looking for euphoria in this instance is not a good thing, if it was SWIM whom had the chronic pain he would not be interested in euphoria but rather just getting rid of the pain.

There are also reverse effects. In some people these substances do not cause euphoria but rather a "wrong" or panic feeling. Its called "paradoxical effect" - this is where a drug has a contradictory effect to what it normally has on the majority of people (well what the medical community consider to be the majority anyway). So there is a chance that SWIY is experiencing the paradoxical effect rather than the euphoric effect. If one were to have no opiate tolerance at all and took 15mg of Oxy then one should have felt pretty damn good for that first time (although they would have wanted more). A lot of people are fairly comfortable with less than that.

MScontin is the gold standard to which other opiate/opioid drugs are measured. If one were in the same position as SWIY then he would be content with either Oxycontin 20mg or MScontin 30mg but would be happier if he got stronger dosages of either of those two.

Hydromorphone would be great also if SWIY could get something time released in this form, but all in all one would be happiest with the Oxycontin or MScontin.

Hey thanks. Yeah I had some genetic testing done and apparently i have a "drug sensitivity gene," meaning some drugs can have paradoxical effects on me. Still, I haven't been really getting a paradoxical effect from any of these drugs. I've just been getting lack of any effect. I mean isn't it strange that a 15mg MSContin pill didn't do anything for me? Or is it worth trying 30?

I mean, i was just reading up on heroin, and they say that when H is taken orally, it is no different from taking oral morphine. So, why am i not feeling "really damn good" on any of these? I've only taken 2 weeks of oxycodone off and on, with tramadol inbetween, and I admit it was doing slightly more when I started taking it, but I've gone back up to 15mg at once and I'm not feeling any euphoria whatsoever, as well as almost no pain relief. It's like the stuff isn't working. My docs on vacation for four days anyway so im not gonna be able to ask for anything else.
Fuck.

Anyway, drugs do work, like I loved Klonopin for instance just in terms of stress relief. It also made me very energetic (when I didn't take enough to put me to sleep), so in that way it was paradoxical.

I don't know. Basically, not *every* drug is going to give me a paradoxical effect. Are there other drugs that are *slightly* different chemically that might work for me since morphine and oxy do not, such as hydromorphone?
I mean, is there anything else?

And can you give me more info on Methadone please. What do you mean it's dangerous? And how does it compare to morphine and oxy in terms of strength?

As for euphoria, i too would just like my pain to go away and not have euphoria, but since doctors have told me that nothing is going to take away all of my pain, id rather have a drug that takes away 50% of my pain AND gives me a lot of euphoria than a drug that only takes away 50% of my pain without any euphoria.

One other thing; I've read that having or lacking certain enzymes in the body can affect how these opiate drugs work, as well as the PH level inside of the body. Are there any enzymes or substances I should ask for from my doctor to go along with these pain medicines that help work better?

Thanks so much for everyone's help

[paranoid_android]

The only reason heroin orally feels like morphine orally, is because it literally is morphine when taken orally. The digestive system turns heroin into morphine before it even reaches the brain.

EDIT: Some of your questions can be asked of Google. He's a pretty smart guy. I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but it helps keep the forums uncluttered with lots of basic questions. If you put methadone into www.google.com you'd probably be able to find at least the basics on it. The specific answer of why it's dangerous is that it takes a long time to start feeling the effects, and a long time to come up. Newbies such as yourself might either not be feeling anything, or not feeling the full effect of it yet, and take more before the first dose is even fully in their system. The effect of the plateau (if you'd call it that) also lasts very long, usually at least 24 hours.

EDIT again: "Doctors have told me that nothing is going to take away all of my pain." Two things here.
1. He's probably lying. Most likely, he wants to keep you on a low enough dose that you don't become addicted to it and bring him a lawsuit. Though you will develop a tolerance and maybe an addiction, I doubt you've reached the ceiling dose-wise for pain control. Go to a pain specialist.
2. He might be telling the truth. Still, go to a pain specialist. He'll definitely be more willing to prescribe the goodies, and in fairly decent dosages as well.

[samuraigecko]

The answer would be yes. If one has not had success with the other opiates then ask ones doctor if he could try hydrocodone instead.

Methadone is pretty much reserved for "recovering" Heroin users and one usually has to go on a national register to be able to get it (for certain countries) so methadone is not even really an option as one will never just get a doctor to prescribe it just for pain relief.

This thread also needs to be moved to an appropriate part of the forum as it has absolutely nothing to do with Opium and Poppy.

[Emo17]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

The answer would be yes. If one has not had success with the other opiates then ask ones doctor if he could try hydrocodone instead.

Methadone is pretty much reserved for "recovering" Heroin users and one usually has to go on a national register to be able to get it (for certain countries) so methadone is not even really an option as one will never just get a doctor to prescribe it just for pain relief.

This thread also needs to be moved to an appropriate part of the forum as it has absolutely nothing to do with Opium and Poppy.

Hydrocodone now, or hydromorphone? Which should i ask for lol? I thought hydrocodone = vicodin... which i already tried in a very small dose...
anyway, specifically, what should i ask for?

Secondly, I already got the methadone perscription mailed in. My doc isn't a pain specialist but when I told him I wanted to try methadone he was like "oh yeah methadone, that's another one you could try," and then said he could either call in like... triplets of it... or something... i didnt really understand, or he could mail in the stronger one i guess, and I told him id rather just try the real thing, so he mailed in the prescription and i have it now. I read that methadone gives absolutely no euphoria, but my friend who took it said she got pretty much as high on it as she has with heroin... so...

anyway, hydrocodone, hydromorphone... what should i ask for?

Secondlly, can someone please solve the following mystery for me?

Buphrenorphine (subutex) - gave me the most relief

Ms contin (15 mg) - no effect at all

Vicodin (1 pill) - no effect at all

Oxycodone (immediate release - 10 to 15mg) - some effect, but after a month of using this dose (interspersed with tramadol for a week every other week, so really its only been two weeks), the effect is extremely minimal

Fentanyl 12.5mcg duragesic patch - pretty strong effect, but not pleasant

Tramadol - second strongest effect

The mystery is this: Of the two synthetic opiates I've tried, tramadol and fentanyl, both have worked pretty much how everyone else experiences them, so - pretty much normally. They both work, period.

Now, keeping that in mind, when I took morphine, Oxycodone, and Vicodin, which are all real opiate drugs (i think), and all work pretty much the same way on the same receptor(s) (according to the doc), I barely got any effect from the oxy, and the vicodin and morphine both gave me no effect.

But, when I took the buphrenorphine, which is also a real opiate, but which I think works slightly differently in the brain, and which is appparently not remotely as strong as morphine, I got more of an effect than I did with anything else.

So, the mystery is, why are the opiate drugs (vicodin, oxy, and morphine) that all work the same way on the same receptors not really doing anything for me, when the synthetics (that work differently or are digested differently) ARE, and when the buphrenorphine that also works slightly differently is.

For some reason, the drugs that work the way of morphine and oxy are not working. What is the reason for this? It must have something to do with like x opiate that works on y receptor needs to be digested by z enzymes before it can work. Maybe i lack certain enzymes? Maybe the PH in my stomach isnt where it needs to be?

So what am im asking is, can the enzymes needed to digest these drugs be found in any foods? Are there any foods I could eat before the next time I take oxy which would then determine whether or not a lack of enzymes is a problem or not?

Bananas? Apples? Nuts? Sugar? ... anyone know? Can anyone explain this and help?

Thanks

[beentheredonethatagain]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Methadone is pretty much reserved for "recovering" Heroin users and one usually has to go on a national register to be able to get it (for certain countries) so methadone is not even really an option as one will never just get a doctor to prescribe it just for pain relief.

Doctors prescribe methadone quite a bit here in the U.S.
Nik was prescribed them before by a urgent care doctor, to tied me over until he was able to get in and see his pain specialist.

Hydrocodone now, or hydromorphone? Which should i ask for lol? I thought hydrocodone = vicodin... which i already tried in a very small dose...
anyway, specifically, what should i ask for?

Hydromorphone is the stuff to get, it is a very potent analgesic.
Remember dependency is a way of life on opiates, I was tied to a doctor and those pills for a couple of years.

They were legit presciptions and so was the monkey.

[mikebobjohn]

but can anyone explain how a pill of subutex or 100mg of tramadol does more for me than 15mg of oxycodone or 15mg MS Contin?
Is there any logical explanation to this?
Also, if MS contin and oxycodone don't work for me, what makes you think hydromorphone will?

[CosmosSurfer]

Methadone is a horrible option for pain relief, though it IS widely prescribed stateside for pain..they're not wafers, they're pills, different from the clinics. While all synthetic opiates are going to enslave by consumption some are much less detrimentally in the long term, I would stay away from Methadone as rx pain treatment at all cost.
If you go the oxycodone route, I would be careful, tolerance builds extremely quickly and sooner or later the highest dose (80mg) will not suffice for efficient management.

If you've tried most other alternatives I would give Dilaudid (hydromorphone) a run and see how that will work for you, there is no cookie-cutter universal way to do this, it's very individual depending on patient.

[mikebobjohn]

i told my doc my concerns with methadone, and he said 20mg every four hours for someone with no opiate tolerance is still a safe dose. he had this little palm pilot type thing that has the half life of every drug, and he showed it to me. it said 8 to 57 hours for methadone, but he says if it's in my body, i would feel it. so the fact that i dont feel it after 9 or so hours at all means (according to him) that it's out of my system in 9 hours.

[mikebobjohn]

and i told him what you have all been saying about it, and he said not to worry about it.

[mikebobjohn]

so... im not sure what to think. is it safe to take 20mg every four hours for a no tolerance guy, like my doc says? I also called a pharmacist at walgreens and he said 20mg every 4 hours even though i dont have a tolerance is still an "okay dose."

thoughts?

[CosmosSurfer]

I would say 20mg of methadone is a safe dose for someone with no tolerance, you're going to feel it, but it's definitely not a potentially lethal dose or anything of that sort. I would not go any higher than 20mg for a while, when swim was on methadone tolerance was built up to around 40mg a day (or a wafer , if it's from the clinics) which still isn't anything compared to some doses. Just be careful, it's basically legal dope and it's extremely potent.

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no rep points taken over a differing opinion, but i wanted to point out that by using the term "legal dope" it...

[mikebobjohn]

Originally Posted by CosmosSurfer

I would say 20mg of methadone is a safe dose for someone with no tolerance, you're going to feel it, but it's definitely not a potentially lethal dose or anything of that sort. I would not go any higher than 20mg for a while, when swim was on methadone tolerance was built up to around 40mg a day (or a wafer , if it's from the clinics) which still isn't anything compared to some doses. Just be careful, it's basically legal dope and it's extremely potent.

20mg may be a safe dose, but is 20mg every four hours for a day like swim's doctor says is okay a safe dose?

and wafers are really? 40mg?

and by legal dope you mean it's just like heroin? because at 20mg of methadone is still not thatttt strong. ive never tried heroin though so ill take your word for it if you say it is like heroin. is that what you're saying?

[moda00]

Methadone is not any more "like heroin" than oxycodone is. There are subtle nuances among opiate type drugs- as you pointed out, there are traditional opiates and then there are the synthetic/semi-synth opioids.. but as far as their general effects and tolerance/addiction potential, it's the same concept. If I were you, my concern would be finding something that is effective for the pain management without life-altering side effects- such as you described with the subutex- that's no fun. People have paradoxical drug reactions, everyone have their own preferences, and you'll hear different opinions. But a drug being compared to heroin is a cliche without much merit. They're all opioids- they act on the same receptors, and tend to give the same general feeling of pain-relief and euphoria.. BUT I will note that it is common for those using opioid drugs for either addiction maintenance or pain relief (non-recreational use) not to ever feel or seek a euphoria- the drug takes them from below "average/baseline state of being" (ie. in pain, negative state) --> to average/normal/healthy feeling. Same with addicts in withdrawal. But when a healthy, average, baseline person takes an opiate for recreational purposes, they are being taken from baseline to above baseline- intoxicated, euphoric, fukked up. Just a simplified way of looking at it, but it is quite common from what swim has heard and experienced- that pain patients and maintenance treatment patients do not feel the euphoria- they merely feel relief of the symptoms for which they are treated- pain, withdrawal, etc. So don't go looking for a high on top of all that or you might be in some trouble.

Now, when people bring up heroin, in terms of comparison, they say it in both a negative way and a positive way- ie. it's the best/strongest/it will mess you up=good (for recreational users) BUT is also perceived as most dangerous- illegal, often injected- dirty needles=HIV, hepatitis, addiction= bad. These are all perceptions based mainly on the legal status on stereotypes- implied but never explicitly acknowledged when this argument is used as backing for whatever argument is being given. Yes, heroin is addictive, but not really moreso than any other opioid pharmaceutical if taken in the same ways and dosages. The difference is that if you are getting an opioid drug prescribed, chances are you are not buying it on a corner, or mainlining it through a dirty syringe, or risking arrest. So while these pharms may be "like heroin" in their chemical properties, the negative connotations associated with heroin are mainly nullified by Rx drugs. The one significant factor is addiction, and that applies no matter which specific opiate you choose- iv use will get you there faster no matter the substance, so don't do that please. Plus, when it comes to pain and quality of life issues, it comes down to this- you might become dependent on a drug, need it to function. Diabetics are "dependent" on insulin. You could call it an addiction. For some it leads to problems, for most it doesn't. But if your quality of life right now is being affected by your pain- treat it! Keep trying till you find what works for you. Of course you can explore acupuncture, you can explore surgical options if they exist for your condition, you can explore homeopathy- I'm not saying what you should/shouldn't do. But it makes me angry when docs are afraid to prescribe reasonable meds or reasonable dosages to manage legit pain-- or when pain patients are made to feel like they are going to become a bane to society with a raging junk habit because they take an opiate.

If the options you've tried haven't worked, my vote is for trying methadone. The docs and pharmacies know dosaging and are likely to err on the side of too little, to be increased over time- rather than too much, and killing someone. If you are worried, you could start with half the dose, see how it affects you, and go up from there- you can certainly do what feels comfortable for you. But I just want to make the point that everyone has a preference, and it is not usually rooted in fact. For example, swim says morphine is best, but other swim says morphine sucks and oxy is best. Swim says try methadone, other swim says don't do that," methadone is like heroin." Point being- only you know what works for you, keep trying till you find it, and research- talk to other docs, view objective sources, journals, etc. One other thing I will point out is that methadone is significantly different in that it is longer lasting- so while oxycodone is taken every 4-6 hours, you might take methadone every 6-8 hours, or even less. No doubt there are some patients who take it more frequently, but in general it is a longer lasting opiate so the doses would be further spread apart- or prescribed as needed- ie. dose when the pain returns, although I'm not sure how docs calculate that.

Anyway, best of luck. I sincerely hope you find something that works and are able to effectively treat your pain without stigma or side affects.

[moda00]

" and by legal dope you mean it's just like heroin? because at 20mg of methadone is still not thatttt strong. ive never tried heroin though so ill take your word for it if you say it is like heroin. is that what you're saying?"

Also-- as one whose done about all the available opioids recreationally, swim can tell you that methadone is nothing like heroin, aside from the general common properties shared by all opioid class drugs. The closest comparison in swim's personal experience would be snorting oxycodone and snorting small doses of heroin- similar but not identical effects. But the means of ingestion, dosage, long-acting vs. short acting, synthetic vs. natural etc. make oral methadone (as prescribed) and injected or snorted heroin not even comparable in swim's book. Again-- opinions and assholes- everyone has one.. or something. Lol. Do what works for you. But don't freak out about the whole "legal dope=heroin" shit. Opioids have some wonderful properties and legit uses, and can save peoples lives- quality of life. They can also cause addiction and death. As long as you're aware of the pros and cons and don't abuse them, it seems like they may be helpful to you. Then again, maybe not- you'll just have to keep trying, and I know that getting anything done with doctors can be a pain in the arse.. but hopefully the methadone will work, or a higher dose of one of the others that have given you some limited success in the past.

[mick]

Another approach you might take is to find two different meds that are effective. This is how swim manages his cronic pain. Using a week of one med and then a week of the other has been very effective in preventing tolerance for swim. Also, I must give my vote for dilaudid.

[mikebobjohn]

Originally Posted by mick

Another approach you might take is to find two different meds that are effective. This is how swim manages his cronic pain. Using a week of one med and then a week of the other has been very effective in preventing tolerance for swim. Also, I must give my vote for dilaudid.

what's a good way to relieve pain other than opiates?
like, an opiate one week, then... what? for the second weeek. ive tried ketamine and it hasnt worked. what else is there?

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Do not self-incrminate

[mick]

Well, Fiorcet comes to mind. It is available w/o codeine and has worked well for swim in the past.