Opinions - DIY SSRIs?

[Jacco]

Hey, swim heard the case of someone who had some fairly serious problems with depression but whose parents didn't believe in depression and who wouldn't want to see a psychiatrist/psychologist and actually get into therapy.

What can be done for him, short of faking a prescription for fluoxetine/wellbutrin or ordering something from the internet? Is there any synergistic combination of OTC drugs that would help more than what he's currently using (Caffeine and 5-HTP)?

Swim heard that dyphenhydramine is actually an SSRI, and wonders if somehow its sedating effects could be negated.

[humdroid]

Look on the web for foods rich in tyrosine, the dopamine precursor, and also, for foods rich in tryptophans (5-htp), the serotonin precursor.
Largely, depression can be controlled by diet and/or supplements.

Parents are often reluctant for their offspring to seek psych help as they may fear their parenting is being put into question.
In actual fact, the therapy is all about guidance in helping the individual come to terms with any experiences which may be having a residual effect on the person. Its not about blaming anyone for bad experiences, so the parents are misguided in feeling anxious about blame. They may have played a part in the persons experience, but the therapy is about the person gaining a healthier perspective and working through any negativites in a healthy way.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very valuable insight

[plur]

a lot of parents are also a afrid the sigma some people my place (they probly do the same) on there being a "problem"

[senorsalvia]

You might want to try Salvia.... Swim dumped Zoloft for Wellbutrin, then, started using a sub-threshold amount of S.D. instead.... Years now, and no depression..... (Your mileage can and probably will vary)========

[BobTheGreat]

benadryl wont do a thing. Its a first generation antihistamine that the SSRI class came from.

5HTP might help if the deression is not severe but it can only do so much. IF swiy is under 18 covince his parents to schedule a doc appointment(say swiy has a cold/sinus inflection if needed). Then get in and talk to the doc by yourself. It's better to deal with now that later.

[razorwiredildo]

isn't st. johns wort an ssri? it may be an MAOI i cant remember.
I think kanna is an ssri that may be of some value.
dissociatives have been shown to possibly be effective antidepressants also.
of course i am sure that all these drugs have a downside (esp dissociatives) so, much research would be necessary before using these on a regular basis for depression.
There are a lot of things out there that can help that i haven't mentioned, but unfortunately a lot of these things are not very well researched.

[BobTheGreat]

Originally Posted by razorwiredildo

isn't st. johns wort an ssri? it may be an MAOI i cant remember.
I think kanna is an ssri that may be of some value.
dissociatives have been shown to possibly be effective antidepressants also.
of course i am sure that all these drugs have a downside (esp dissociatives) so, much research would be necessary before using these on a regular basis for depression.
There are a lot of things out there that can help that i haven't mentioned, but unfortunately a lot of these things are not very well researched.

If swiy is talking about dxm, a theorphutic dose; it probably wouldnt do much. At high dosing dxm is toxic to the body. As far as other dissociatives, swim would stay. Dissoc. have some action on the serotonin swiy body produces which would cause some antideppressant effects. These effects would be negligable in swims opinion.

[fnord]

Kanna,callea and 5htp should do the trick.

Swim heard that dyphenhydramine is actually an SSRI, and wonders if somehow its sedating effects could be negated.

its sedative effects go down over time,fairly quickly.

[fnord]

Originally Posted by fnord

Kanna,calea and 5htp should do the trick.

thanks jatakela! has anyone had success with kanna? grandma feels that taking a lil bit a calea seems to make her happier over time.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by Jacco

Swim heard that dyphenhydramine is actually an SSRI, and wonders if somehow its sedating effects could be negated.

Where do people keep hearing or reading this inaccurate fact? Keeps popping up everywhere, no doubt people misreading wikipedia or something.


SSRI = Selective Serotonin Re-uptake inhibitor

Selective is the key word: Diphenhydramine inhibits uptake of 5-HT (Serotonin) but at irrelevant concentrations compared to it's anti-histamine effects (=>Can't be called selective). First generation anti-histamine's (I.e Drowsy) may help specific symptoms of depression short term (I.e no sleep) although there is little evidence for this and in terms of treating depression could easily aggravate the condition instead.


It's hard to really comment on what this person should do because "serious depression" could mean a number of things. A suitable diagnosis or opinion can't really be made from a forum on the internet but definately not from a couple of sentences alone. SWIM would recommend to the person involved finding someone realiable, possibly professional but not necessarily, who they trust and is neutral to any problems going on and can therefore give them some sort of objectivity to the situation.

Reputation Comments on this post:

solid information

[Paracelsus]

As far as other dissociatives, swim would stay. Dissoc. have some action on the serotonin swiy body produces which would cause some antideppressant effects. These effects would be negligable in swims opinion.

Are you sure about this? As far as I know, dissociatives are not serotonergic in general (DXM is, however). Single doses of ketamine produce rapid antidepressant effects (not via serotonin), which may be useful for acute interventions but most likely not for long-term treatment.

[BobTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

Are you sure about this? As far as I know, dissociatives are not serotonergic in general (DXM is, however). Single doses of ketamine produce rapid antidepressant effects (not via serotonin), which may be useful for acute interventions but most likely not for long-term treatment.

Whoops. Could very well be wrong on this. Knew DXM had it and thought K produced its AD was from serotonin. I guess dont believe everything you read.

[Zaprenz]

Well just to confirm as people reading this might confuse the terms, diphenhydramine (& other anti-histamines) should not be confused with DXM & Ketamine.

DXM & Ketamine => Dissociative

Diphenhydramine (& other antihistamines) => deliriant.

[BobTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Zaprenz

Well just to confirm as people reading this might confuse the terms, diphenhydramine (& other anti-histamines) should not be confused with DXM & Ketamine.

DXM & Ketamine => Dissociative

Diphenhydramine (& other antihistamines) => deliriant.

dissociatives are delriants and that really isnt all that important since this thread is basically about otc antidepressants not recreational use.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by BobTheGreat

dissociatives are delriants and that really isnt all that important since this thread is basically about otc antidepressants not recreational use.

SWIM would have to disagree with the importance. It wasn't an attempt to correct SWIYs post, simply alert people reading this whole thread that diphenhydramine (talked about in first post) should not be confused with DXM & ketamine. Anyway when was SWIM suggesting recreational use? and ketamine is also NOT OTC.

Not all dissociatives should be lablled deliriants. [because not all have relevant anti-cholinergic effects] Look on this forum there is a group for dissociatives and one for deliriant anti-histamines.

Dissociatives

Dissociatives are drugs that reduce (or block) signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain, typically (but not necessarily, or limited to) the physical senses. Such a state of sensory deprivation can facilitate self exploration, hallucinations, and dreamlike states of mind which may resemble some psychedelic mindstates. Essentially similar states of mind can be reached via contrasting paths—psychedelic or dissociative. That said, the entire experience, risks and benefits are markedly different.

The primary dissociatives are similar in action to PCP (angel dust) and include ketamine (an anaesthetic), and dextromethorphan (an active ingredient in many cough syrups). Also included are nitrous oxide, and muscimol from the Amanita muscaria (fly agaric) mushroom.

Many dissociatives also have CNS depressant effects, thereby carrying similar risks as opioids to slowing breathing or heart rate to levels resulting in death (when using very high doses). This does not appear to be true in other cases; and the principal risk of nitrous oxide seems to be due to oxygen deprivation. Injury from falling is also a danger, as nitrous oxide may cause sudden loss of consciousness, an effect of oxygen deprivation. Long term use of dissociative anaesthetics such as PCP and ketamine (and possibly dextromethorphan) have been suspected to cause Olney's lesions (N-methyl-d-aspartate antagonist neurotoxicity), though these lesions have never been demonstrated in primates to date.

Deliriants

The deliriants (or anticholinergics) are a special class of dissociative which are antagonists for the acetylcholine receptors (unlike muscarine and nicotine which are agonists of these receptors). Deliriants are sometimes called true hallucinogens, because they do cause hallucinations in the proper sense: a user may have conversations with people who aren't there, or become angry at a 'person' mimicking their actions, not realizing it is their own reflection in a mirror.[citation needed] They are called deliriants because their effects are similar to the experiences of people with delirious fevers. While dissociatives can produce effects similar to lucid dreaming (where one is consciously aware they are dreaming), the deliriants have effects akin to sleepwalking (where one doesn't remember what happened during the experience).

Included in this group are such plants as deadly nightshade, mandrake, henbane and datura, as well as a number of pharmaceutical drugs when taken in very high doses such as the first generation antihistamines diphenhydramine (Benadryl), its close relative dimenhydrinate (Dramamine or Gravol), and hydroxyzine, to name a few. Native Americans also consumed massive amounts of tobacco during religious ceremonies in order to experience the deliriant effects.

In addition to the danger of being far more "out of it" than with other drugs, and retaining a truly fragmented dissociation from regular consciousness without being immobilized, the anticholinergics are toxic, can cause death due to overdose, and also include a number of uncomfortable side effects. These side effects include dehydration and mydriasis (dilation of the pupils).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyched...and_deliriants

Why is it important to make the distinction?

Ketamine [some evidence for use in depression] & DXM are both NMDA antagonists amongst other things.

Diphenhydramine (in the original question above) is an anti-cholinergic, anti-histamine.

The potential confusion => Diphenhydramine minimally effects 5-HT (serotonin) reuptake, DXM also effects 5-HT(serotonin). [both discussed in this thread, both completely different chemicals and effects]

Agreed the terms of dissociative and deliriant are not set in stone but seperating them as such means people who don't understand what an NMDA receptor and a cholinergic receptor are can seperate them in a simpler way.

Personally SWIM wouldn't recommend any of them in treating depression(even ketamine as most people wont be using it in a reliable clinical, pure dose). It is more important though people reading this thread do not confuse the definitions and start taking huge doses of diphenhydramine thinking it's got any use in treating depression. (ala ketamine)

Reputation Comments on this post:

this is starting to get off topic...

[Jatelka]

OK people: Back on topic

DIY SSRI's

Please start a new thread for the discussion of NMDA antagonists and anticholinergics

[Rush]

Originally Posted by Jacco

Hey, swim heard the case of someone who had some fairly serious problems with depression but whose parents didn't believe in depression and who wouldn't want to see a psychiatrist/psychologist and actually get into therapy.

What can be done for him, short of faking a prescription for fluoxetine/wellbutrin or ordering something from the internet? Is there any synergistic combination of OTC drugs that would help more than what he's currently using (Caffeine and 5-HTP)?

Swim heard that dyphenhydramine is actually an SSRI, and wonders if somehow its sedating effects could be negated.

the best thing to do is to convince the parents, or go to a psychiatrist by yourself.believe me, a swim's friend has the same story you wrote.

its best to treat depression before it worsens

btw, the guy you are talking about, should stay away from drugs, they may give him a temporary relief, but in the long term they worsen everything.

he may become psychologically addicted.

a swim's friend tried everything as an antidepressant: AMT, DXM, antihistamines, some other RC, 5htp, hypericum( St. John's wort), melatonin

everything had a temporary relief(ranging from some hours to some weeks) but nothing worked like a true antidepressant