Culture - Ethics involved when selling drugs

[Micutzul]

I started this to continue a discussion that already started on another thread.

I think it should be discussed very seriously . It is an important matter and together with the law , i think is one of the most defining aspects of the drug comunity today .

On one side we have the person who sells drugs for a profit ( drug supplier ) . On the other side we have the consumer .

Drug suppliers must make money . It is the purpose of their profession. To do so , they have choices : they could go for the quick buck , sell dangerous drugs , mislabel them , lie about their effects , dosage , cut the drugs with adulterants , etc . Or they could be responsible and respectable and take care of the customers . Because in the end , a customer that can trust his supplier , and enjoy the product of his choice ( not whatever the suppliers decides to put in a pill , for example ) with as few hazards as possible will come back again . In my opinion , the dealers who go after the quick , dirty buck far outnumber the ones who are responsible .

Now the consumer . The consumer has choices as well , he could test whatever he is buying ( using testing kits, or at least start off with small doses under safe and controlled conditions ) , he could buy only from verified sources ( as much as possible ) , he could try and get as much information about what he is purchasing , ( by either asking the supplier , or looking stuff up ) , and first of all he could care about what he is puting in his body . Or they could just not care , and take substances that they know very little about as long as it gets them high/tripping . In my opinion , many users take the second choice .

In my opinion , many drug suppliers are iresponsible because their target client is ignorant . Sure , it is easier and more profitable too , but it wouldn't be if the drug using comunity would educate themselves and start caring more about their safety , and about the substances they so highly value . This is the purpose of this forum .

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good topic, only one outcome though.
	GOod job following through and not running from a discussion.

[RaverHippie]

In my friend's experience as both dealer/consumer he has always tested things himself before he would ever sell to anyone, so that he would be able to describe it to his customers. My friend would also refuse the product to people that wouldn't be able to handle the trip or are just bad people. My friend got far more enjoyment out of sending his customers to happy places than he did seeing the profits. He usually ended up using some of the profits to purchase party supplies/food/other things that benefited the core group of customers too. That's how my friend likes to operate but my friend then runs into the problem with bad dealers when he is sourcing things to sell to his customers, so that just creates difficulties for him.

[Kodi]

Swim tries to associate with the ones who use good ethics, it is a business, and as any other business, there must be trust between business partners.

Swims friend also gives out small free doses to those close after he tries it first, so that many people will be able to verify it is good product and of course then spread the word about it to others, this results in more profits and a good reputation for him in the end.

[MrG]

Well that all sounds fine and dandy *if* SWIY has an actual "buddy" who is well connected.

What often happens is that said "buddy" starts out with good intentions, never actually allowing SWIY to have direct access to his contact of course, and will often be very generous in his dealings (pun intended).

Eventually, time usually dependant on what product said dealer is selling, the fiending begins. Often with the excuse of "well my guy says that everything is dry at the moment so this is all there is and you'll have to pay a bit extra for it".

SWIY's usually just shrug their shoulders and fork out the extra. But the next time brings more excuses as to why SWIY's will need to either pay extra for their score or, worse still, their score ends up becoming underweight or lower quality.

Many is the time the end user will have a conversation with their dealer "buddy" along the lines of complaining how their dealer buddy is getting ripped off by his supplier because the weights and the quality is getting worse. These conversations are rarely honest enough to be as direct as they need be i.e. What is actually being discussed is how their dealer "buddy" is the one who is ripping them off but, in an attempt to be diplomatic, they steer the conversation along the lines of blaming their "buddy's" supplier.

During the early days of these complaints said "buddy" will often follow one crappy deal with a few decent ones to prove how he has passed SWIY's complaints along to his supplier.

But then the weights and the quality drop off again and, no matter how much SWIY's complain about how their buddy is being burned by their supplier it becomes rarer and rarer for them to even get a fair deal anymore.

Holiday times are usually a favourite:

"Well Christmas is coming up so everybody is buying at the moment so you'll have to pay more and I can't guarantee the weight or the quality, take it or leave it".

Eventually the end user can't justify putting up with such blatant ripping-off and endeavours to source a new contact. They will rarely cut off their original dealer buddy though, just in case they need a hook up in the future but it sure as hell fucks them off that somebody who they once called a friend ended up becoming a fiending scumbag who, more often than not, chooses to then surround themselves with people who *are* desperate enough to put up with such lowlife behaviour.

Ethics in drug dealing?

Reputation Comments on this post:

so true

[RaverHippie]

keep in mind Friend is another way of saying SWIM in many cases, but your scenario is well heeded nonetheless.

[hh339]

And this is why we need to legalize a lot of cool molecules! People will always be greedy and cut whatever with whatever to make fast cash. It sucks, but it's not likely to change before the law does.

If a person wants to sell a lot of drugs and be serious about it, then that person should be acting like any serious company would when it comes to reliability, quality, etc. Good rep = Cash.

[Shampoo]

I have always seen the dealer as a sort of artist, crafting away masterpieces for consumption and interpretation. Art has a quality like any other form of visceral stimulation; it only exists after being processed. Sound is only vibration until the hum finds and ear drum and stimulates perception. Likewise, color is only refracted light until focused on the fovea and carried to consciousness. Art is only art when consumed by the mind, by cognition. The artist creates for consumption, for the moment when three people stand in front of their painted wall and have completely different interpretations of the world in front of them. The dealer as an artist, prescribes from their toolbox, or gamut of paintings, an opportunity for their participant to bear witness to creation and cognition. How the journey unfolds from there is not the responsibility, nor the field of intentions of the dealer, but rather a self-directed explorative path of thought, which turns a simple powder, blotter, pill, or painting, into an explosion of understanding or confusion, emotion and reaction.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Beautifully written pretentious prittle prattle. Well done.
	that was a beautiful analogy

[Micutzul]

What MRG described is unfortunately how things go in the long term most of the times . From my experience , i actually doubt that there are any dealers in the profession for more than ..say ..1 year...which have mantained a relatively spotless reputation . Unfortunately the drug comunity is , most of the times , a doggy dog world .

And about the drug dealer being an artist , well ..it's very debatable . There are many dealers who couldn't even spell the drug they sell , and who can best describe the effects and dosage as " pop that shit and you'll be tripped as f**ck " . So , while i'm sure there are dealers who regard the use and distribution of drugs as an art , the ignorant kind far outnumbers them .

In fact i think , in many profession or categories on this world , ignorant people far outnumber the responsible ones . It's kinda sad..

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Micutzul

And about the drug dealer being an artist , well ..it's very debatable . There are many dealers who couldn't even spell the drug they sell , and who can best describe the effects and dosage as " pop that shit and you'll be tripped as f**ck " . So , while i'm sure there are dealers who regard the use and distribution of drugs as an art , the ignorant kind far outnumbers them .

This implies that art requires intentions...

The metaphor is an implication of the artist and dealer as facilitators of thought. The ignorance of joe-mushroom only creates a lesser pretense for exploration, for he cannot preface the trip with a McKenna quote for direction, or whatever draws inspiration for swiy....

Basquiat never implied a knowledge of creation, nor a presentation with pretenses, yet the cognitive impact as a result of his 'accidental' art is immeasurable.

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

This implies that art requires intentions...

The metaphor is an implication of the artist and dealer as facilitators of thought. The ignorance of joe-mushroom only creates a lesser pretense for exploration, for he cannot preface the trip with a McKenna quote for direction, or whatever draws inspiration for swiy....

Basquiat never implied a knowledge of creation, nor a presentation with pretenses, yet the cognitive impact as a result of his 'accidental' art is immeasurable.

Well , now it depends on the concept of art right ? And that is debatable , just like i stated .

Also , the fact that drugs facilitate a deeper exploration of the mind and/or universe , although widely accepted is also debatable .

From an organic and somewhat rigid point of view , everything experienced while under the influence of drugs could be considered an abnormal anatomical functioning . The brain is a very complex organ , but still an organ . It has cause-effect relationships and rules ,receptors and neuro-transmiters and just because we don't know 100%what they are and how they function doesn't mean there necesarilly is something mystical or spiritual about them .

Or you could go on the subject from the point of view that the brain is the organ where the mind/spirit resides , so it is special . But then you'd go into mind/spirit definitions and so , even more debate .

[JKLJKLJKL]

SWIM has had 2 good dealers in the past year, and 1 shit one, he used the shit one once, and the other two about 40+ times and the second is at SWIM's new home and has used about 10 times.

SWIM doesn't understand the dealers who fuck you over, if its a street dealer, someone you just meet then fair enough, but if its someone you have to bother to FIND, i.e. speak to people, get a number, go to see them somwehere, then why bother becoming that hard to find if your product is shit, you may as well stand on a street corner shouting what youve got.

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by JKLJKLJKL

SWIM has had 2 good dealers in the past year, and 1 shit one, he used the shit one once, and the other two about 40+ times and the second is at SWIM's new home and has used about 10 times.

SWIM doesn't understand the dealers who fuck you over, if its a street dealer, someone you just meet then fair enough, but if its someone you have to bother to FIND, i.e. speak to people, get a number, go to see them somwehere, then why bother becoming that hard to find if your product is shit, you may as well stand on a street corner shouting what youve got.

One very good reason for being hard to find and not shouting what you've got on a street corner is to avoid authorities ,gangs and other dealers . You know ? Keep out of jail , keep out of the hospital , keep out of the morgue .

IMHO

[bcubed]

WRT ethics: which drugs should be sold cut? It would seem unethical to sell street opiates uncut, due to the risk of overdose. But what about other drugs like cocaine and meth? Outside of the opiates, are there any drugs which should always be cut down to the "industry standard?"

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by bcubed

WRT ethics: which drugs should be sold cut? It would seem unethical to sell street opiates uncut, due to the risk of overdose. But what about other drugs like cocaine and meth? Outside of the opiates, are there any drugs which should always be cut down to the "industry standard?"

If opiates hadn't been heavily cut for so much time , it wouldn't be unethical to sell them straight . People would have just adjusted their dosages . Even as it is now , i'm sure a lot of people appreciate No.4 heroin , more than the cut heroin . But there would be the continuos risk of overdoses when selling pure heroin . However , regarding ethics , i'm sure dealers cut heroin mainly to make more profit . Of course they also need/want their customers to be alive.

[old hippie 56]

Here lately, swim been seeing a increase of questions concerning IVing. The people want to know more, but sometimes they are scared to ask, in fear of being labeled or rejected.

[RaverHippie]

Erowid 101, first year in secondary school mandatory course!

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

Erowid 101, first year in secondary school mandatory course!

Yup , and i bet that it would be more useful than some of the auxiliary classes we have in Swim's country .

Regarding users looking up more info about IV'ing , i think they shouldn't be afraid . Any responsible member would see the importance of such a question and should not reject it . If they are labeled or rejected by some , they should just move on and try to not take it personally . There will always be ignorant people . Nobody should let them get in the way .

[Kernacktur]

SWIM doesn't really think there's any morals or ethics involved with selling. He looks at dealing like any other occupation or industry. There's economic aspects like competition and supply & demand that effect how a business minded dealer would act. Treating customer with respect and to some degree kindness goes a long way. Just like a friendly staff at a restaurant bring customers back. Competition also effects how things are done. You can't overprice and short bags if buyers have a choice. And being able to provide convenient service is important too IE delivery and being in stock. People tend to choose the fastest, most reliable way of getting things. Kinda of like using Fed Ex over the postal service. There's a special kinda of trust between dealers and their customers. There's an element of blind faith the customer has when buying. They have to trust the product is what it's advertised as and it will do what it's supposed to. It reminds me of the relationship between a doctor and their patients. Except the doctor actually has a formal education in his field and is working to make you NOT die. What I'm trying to say is dealing is like any other business. I don't think there's anything special about it. Good dealers are like successful businesses. They provide the best service, have good prices and faithful customers. Dealers that rob people and short bags usually aren't solely dealers. They wouldn't be able to survive in the market.

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

SWIM doesn't really think there's any morals or ethics involved with selling. He looks at dealing like any other occupation or industry. There's economic aspects like competition and supply & demand that effect how a business minded dealer would act. Treating customer with respect and to some degree kindness goes a long way. Just like a friendly staff at a restaurant bring customers back. Competition also effects how things are done. You can't overprice and short bags if buyers have a choice. And being able to provide convenient service is important too IE delivery and being in stock. People tend to choose the fastest, most reliable way of getting things. Kinda of like using Fed Ex over the postal service. There's a special kinda of trust between dealers and their customers. There's an element of blind faith the customer has when buying. They have to trust the product is what it's advertised as and it will do what it's supposed to. It reminds me of the relationship between a doctor and their patients. Except the doctor actually has a formal education in his field and is working to make you NOT die. What I'm trying to say is dealing is like any other business. I don't think there's anything special about it. Good dealers are like successful businesses. They provide the best service, have good prices and faithful customers. Dealers that rob people and short bags usually aren't solely dealers. They wouldn't be able to survive in the market.

It's not just like any other business because first of all .. it's ILLEGAL .That changes the dynamics .

And the most important reason why its not be like any other business , is that not many other businesses ( except the pharmaceutical , which is ,supposedly, highly regulated ) provides customers with potentially harmful/life-threatning chemicals . How many other businesses do you know which involve shooting their product into your veins ?

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

SWIM doesn't really think there's any morals or ethics involved with selling. He looks at dealing like any other occupation or industry.

In every legal occupation or industry there are rules regulating the limits of what you can or can't do, from occupational safety to consumer protection laws. When the market is the sole arbiter of the rules of transaction, the guy with the biggest stick wins every time. Even in a regulated marketplace (i.e. most of the civilized world) there are continual problems maintaining a balance. Remove those regulatory checks and you have the world of drug dealing, where criminals both statutory and otherwise hold the cards. It would be nice to think that the plethora of dealers means that one could pick & choose from among the best of them - like shopping for wine - but that's obviously not the case: it's hard to get to know people in the industry, and the more people you know the more you put yourself at risk.

There's a special kinda of trust between dealers and their customers. There's an element of blind faith the customer has when buying. They have to trust the product is what it's advertised as and it will do what it's supposed to. It reminds me of the relationship between a doctor and their patients. Except the doctor actually has a formal education in his field and is working to make you NOT die.

Imagine how great it would be if dealers were legitimate businesses like any other and they were required to have training in their field, like a pharmacist or maybe a high-end jeweller; it would open up a whole new world of possibility.

[nEone]

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

SWIM doesn't really think there's any morals or ethics involved with selling. He looks at dealing like any other occupation or industry.

So by operating a business a person is free from acting ethically? That sounds like pretty dangerous language - a kind of laissez faire approach that implies that as long as money changes hands, there's no harm done.

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

There's economic aspects like competition and supply & demand that effect how a business minded dealer would act. Treating customer with respect and to some degree kindness goes a long way. Just like a friendly staff at a restaurant bring customers back.

So does serving a customer pork when they ordered beef. They might not know it at the time if the dish is artfully prepared, but if they DO find out, society has rules that allow for repercussions...for restaurants. Since the trade of illegal drugs isn't regulated like that - the implication here is that a dealer should simply be friendly and make money, regardless of whether he's selling junk or not.

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

Competition also effects how things are done. You can't overprice and short bags if buyers have a choice.

But it's ok to overprice/short bags if there's no competition?

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

There's a special kinda of trust between dealers and their customers. There's an element of blind faith the customer has when buying. They have to trust the product is what it's advertised as and it will do what it's supposed to. It reminds me of the relationship between a doctor and their patients. Except the doctor actually has a formal education in his field and is working to make you NOT die.

Which is EXACTLY why dealing should involve a special set of ethical rules. By taking on the mantle of providing a product that is potentially dangerous on both a physical and legal standpoint, a dealer SHOULD have to consider more than just the almighty dollar in an effort to self-regulate.

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

What I'm trying to say is dealing is like any other business. I don't think there's anything special about it.

Except for the fact that dealers are often undereducated about highly variable products that can potentially ruin someone's life if handled/distributed improperly, they don't pay taxes like other businesses, they don't have guarantees and there is no formal method of complaining if their product is not as-advertised. In effect, they are completely UNLIKE any other legitimate business because they operate outside of society's system (however flawed) of checks and balances.

Originally Posted by Kernacktur

Good dealers are like successful businesses. They provide the best service, have good prices and faithful customers. Dealers that rob people and short bags usually aren't solely dealers. They wouldn't be able to survive in the market.

In other words, good dealers must maintain an ethical approach to their operation in order to survive. But that's predicated on the hope that the users are educated about what they're getting. Since most end-users tend to get their info (what is this drug, what does it do, how much is a dose?) from their dealers...the responsibility again returns to the dealer.

[Micutzul]

Originally Posted by nEone

Since most end-users tend to get their info (what is this drug, what does it do, how much is a dose?) from their dealers...the responsibility again returns to the dealer.

This is the sad part . I personally know cases in which a simple 1 or 2 minutes look-up on erowid for a general dosage array would have prevented a lot of harm . ONE or TWO freakin minutes. I'm sure a couple of minutes would have probably prevented a few lives being lost . Like in the cases of XXX vs 5-Meo-XXX , where the 5-Meo version is muuuch more potent. Maybe the person couldn't have known if it was XXX or 5-Meo-XXX , but a little more general knowledge about it's existence could have determined the (rational ) user to start off very small .

As such i think nobody can deny that a quite big share of the fault is also attributed to the users . Damn , even if i got the XXX stuff over at a pharmacy legally , and i was intending on doing 100 mg at once , i'd still start off small to be sure i'm not taking a big risk .

Dealers are humans afterall . Any human is sometimes tented . Any human is sometimes sloppy . Especially humans who quite often use psychoactive substances ( like dealers do ) . Customers should understand this and take extra precaution measures to compensate for the potential dangers.

In my opinion , there is NO excuse for a dealer selling substances or dosages other than what he says . There is NO excuse for a dealer not informing his customer exactly about what he is selling and informing him about general/special precautions . But there is also NO excuse for a customer not taking precautions.

[nEone]

Originally Posted by Micutzul

This is the sad part . I personally know cases in which a simple 1 or 2 minutes look-up on erowid for a general dosage array would have prevented a lot of harm . ONE or TWO freakin minutes. I'm sure a couple of minutes would have probably prevented a few lives being lost .

Absolutely - and I think we're starting to see more users take advantage of the resources available to them. But we also have to remember that the internet isn't widely available to a lot of people, even though it's become an integral part of MANY of our lives - we also have to remember that until very recently, databases like erowid and resources like this forum were not particularly reliable, often filled with lore and extremely exclusionary. We're catching up - but SWIM certainly knows a LOT more people who have never heard of erowid or the lycaeum than those who do.

Originally Posted by Micutzul

In my opinion , there is NO excuse for a dealer selling substances or dosages other than what he says . There is NO excuse for a dealer not informing his customer exactly about what he is selling and informing him about general/special precautions . But there is also NO excuse for a customer not taking precautions.

Agreed. But I think it is the moral and ethical imperative for anyone choosing to deal to err on the side of assuming that NONE of his or her customers are well enough informed until they know for fact that they are (ie. until they're "regulars" and not one-offs in a club).

As a user, SWIM would rather be indignantly able to prove he knows his shit to a hundred preachy dealers than to take the wrong thing and end up dead - or end up in a K-hole instead of tripping his face off...

[Kernacktur]

Changes some dynamics. It's still a business though. All kinds of companies have provided customers with dangerous products. It's not a good idea to kill your customers no matter what industry you're in. Legalities are just technicalities to some.

[Micutzul]

It's a very good idea to kill your customers if you're in the seppuku knives business ..lol .