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Deliriant antihistamines Diphenhydramine, cyclizine and other antihistamines.

 
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  #1  
Old 13-12-2007, 08:05
Lucid_Dreamer Lucid_Dreamer is offline
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Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

After doing some research through various medical sites and wikipedia, I have come to the conclusion that Diphenhydramine/hydrinate is EXTREMELY dangerous. It creates a delirious state of mind because of the toxic tropane alkaloids. This chemical when ingested causes increased heart rate, trouble breathing, trouble with bodily secretions, no sexual arousal, blurred vision, no balance, dialted pupiles, hallucinations, sensitivity to light, etc.

Diphenhydramine also depletes the body of potassium, which can lead to an electrolyte imbalance, which can lead to bodily damage, and even death.

Research it for yourself. I did for a good 5 hours.

I didn't know if this was already known by anybody or not. But Diph trips are deadly!

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your case report is interesting, motive is good. Research is quite superficial though.

Last edited by Lucid_Dreamer; 11-05-2012 at 18:59.
  #2  
Old 13-12-2007, 13:26
sknkv2 sknkv2 is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Oh no, anything but dilated pupils!

I think you have greatly overestimated the danger of this drug. Although the things you have stated are true, they are relatively benign and hardly symptoms to fear. I mean honestly man "blurred vision"?

Of course there are risks associated with every drug, I just don't get why you'd come to the conclusion this one is so risky it needed to be noted as opposed to other drugs which are considered to be much more risky.

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I lol'd
  #3  
Old 13-12-2007, 18:15
Exc_quetz Exc_quetz is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid_Dreamer View Post
It creates a delirious state of mind because of the toxic tropane alkaloids. This chemical when ingested causes increased heart rate, trouble breathing, trouble with bodily secretions, no sexual arousal, blurred vision, no balance, dialted pupiles, hallucinations, sensitivity to light, etc.
Sounds good to SWIM.

Quote:
Diphenhydramine also depletes the body of potassium, which can lead to an electrolyte imbalance, which can lead to bodily damage, and even death.
So eat a banana and drink a gatorade, problem solved.
  #4  
Old 13-12-2007, 22:27
Lucid_Dreamer Lucid_Dreamer is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

You guys laugh at it but I almost died from it. I ended up in the hospital with absolutely NO potassium in my system at all only 4 hours after ingestion. I was given potassium pills for the next 2 days to try and get my levels back to soemwhat normal.

As for the other sypmtoms...My heart almost exploded due to the increased heart rate. My heart rate was at or above 250BPM for well over 2 hours.

I'm just warning you guys. And I still have some effects of the Diphenhydramine trip I had. My vision is permanently fucked. Ever play GH3? Yea, after I play that I can look around anywhere in the room and everything is swirling and twisting and contorting.

Hell, even if I just look at something for 5 seconds its starts contorting itno different objects and shapes.

I'm just giving a warning from someone who has had to deal with this. Tripping on this bullshit OTC is not worth it. Go buy a real drug like lsd, shrooms, dmt...or anything like that. Stay away from deleriants.
  #5  
Old 13-12-2007, 23:15
Orchid_Suspiria Orchid_Suspiria is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

This is fact swim has no doubt.However swim has tripped on diphenhydramine countless times and is still living.Swim thinks it is admirable to warn people of these dangers though.
  #6  
Old 14-12-2007, 02:41
sknkv2 sknkv2 is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

SWIM thinks there is a good chance you have some under-lying condition that contributed to the condition you ended up in as that seems to be a fairly rare reaction. How much did you take exactly?
  #7  
Old 14-12-2007, 02:58
Paracelsus Paracelsus is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

I believe it's more like Russian roulette rather than underlying conditions. Some people seem to be able to handle the side effects and can actually have fun, while most will never ever do it again. About the vision problems: isn't there a diphenhydramine HPPD thread?

Face it: diphenhydramine is far from being safe (in recreational doses). For most, this doesn't matter since they don't enjoy it anyways. The minority needs to stop glorifying it the way it's done.
  #8  
Old 14-12-2007, 04:43
Exc_quetz Exc_quetz is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

SWIM is sorry you had such a bad experience SWILD, and SWIM knows that DPH is far from the safest drug out there, but you came in with some really weak arguments.
  #9  
Old 14-12-2007, 04:48
Lucid_Dreamer Lucid_Dreamer is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Well...I did ingest 1200mg of Diphenhydramine...so.

But still...my arguments are not weak.

Everyone knows that if your body has an electrolyte imbalance, you can die.

Well, histamines help control the electrolytes in the body and without them, some things can get thrown out of whack. Like your potassium levels.

Quote:

Histamine is a chemical that our body releases when it needs help correcting a shortage of some very important substances like water, salt or potassium. Histamine and its buddies (5 helpers) will help re-balance the body that is "out of balance". Histamine is really a good thing that saves our lives according to the great Dr. F. Batmanghelidj. The medical field today is using anti-histamines because it does not understand how histamine really works in the human body. When histamine is produced in the body, it can be over-produced because we are taking too much of one thing or another that our body cannot use.

Last edited by Jatelka; 20-06-2010 at 07:23.
  #10  
Old 14-12-2007, 23:05
Exc_quetz Exc_quetz is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid_Dreamer View Post
Well...I did ingest 1200mg of Diphenhydramine...so.
Well there's your problem. That's far more than any sensible recreational DPH user suggests.
  #11  
Old 15-12-2007, 06:01
Zaprenz Zaprenz is offline
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Well first of all SWIM thinks a few things need clearing up for accuracy.

Yes! Anti-cholinergics are not particularly nice compounds in high doses!

diphenhydramine & dimenhydrinate are not the same and although they share many pharmacological effects with tropane alkaloids they are not tropane alkaloids themselves.

Secondly

Dimenhydrinate = salt of diphenhydramine and 8-chlorotheophylline combined

8-chlorotheophylline is a xanthine related to caffeine/theophylline & CNS stimulant. Originally intended to counteract the drowsy side effects of diphenhydramine when used for it's intended purpose at normal doses. (It proved ineffective at this)

Like caffeine + theophylline, 8-chlorotheophylline will be a mild diuretic, This will further add complication to the disruption of electrolytes.

Considering molecular masses are 271.35 : 214.61 respectively you are going to be getting something like 400 - 600mg 8-chlorotheophylline in a dose of 1200mg dimenhydrinate. That is a large dose! although SWIM is unsure of it's toxicity compared to caffeine and theophylline comparing it to theohpylline which has an extremely narrow therapeutic window - it doesn't seem clever at all.

SWIM finds it strange why people want to ingest high doses of anti-cholinergics such as diphenhydramine (and effectively simulate dementia) but even so would definately NOT recommend dimenhydrinate as theophylline has a low therapeutic window (+ prob 8-chloroT is close if not just as bad) and can also cause nausea, diarrhea, increase in heart rate, arrhythmias and CNS excitation (all of that on top of already present nasty anticholinergic side effects).

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Well done...You have pointed out the stupidity of using DMH vs. DPH and backed it up.

Last edited by Jatelka; 20-06-2010 at 07:23.
  #12  
Old 16-12-2007, 03:03
sknkv2 sknkv2 is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

So basically what you are saying is that it is not the dimenhydrinate itself that is bad, it the "8-chlorotheophylline" it is mixed with? Would it be possible to seperate the two or would it be better to just stick to diphenhydramine? I could have interpreted what you wrote incorrectly, but in case I haven't just curious of it a little.
  #13  
Old 16-12-2007, 03:07
Paracelsus Paracelsus is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

He said that the 8-Cl-theophylline adds to the health risks and unpleasantness of high-dose dimenhydrinate. But he probably missed that Lucid_Dreamer said that his friend ingested 1200 mg diphenhydramine and NOT dimenhydrinate.
  #14  
Old 16-12-2007, 03:22
Zaprenz Zaprenz is offline
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SWIM will clarify:

SWIM would see diphenhydramine as the compound which has less complications. [because it has no 8-chloro-theophylline] But dose won't be equivalent between the two compounds (diphenhydramine & dimenhydrinate) - so both are just as potentially dangerous if not thought through.

SWIM ultimately sees both as a complete waste of time, money and health. Resulting in an experience which is inherently unfun or dysphoric.

In high doses - they are not hallucinogenic in an LSD type way, they are effectively creating a mental state probably very close to dementia by blocking acetyl-choline transmission. [very unfun]

That's not to say sedating antihistamines are not useful in normal recommended doses.

Last edited by Zaprenz; 16-12-2007 at 12:43.
  #15  
Old 16-01-2008, 05:21
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Regardless of a "safe" trip or not, SWIM at least, did not plan to take diphenhydramine for recreational reasons to being with. No drugs are holly jolly safe to run away with, this is a fact, and a delerient must always be treated with respect and caution, true, but SWIM doesn't see a problem with taking more than medicinal dosages of diphenhydramine for pure mind expansion under the right settings and with the proper amount of caution lodged into the brain. SWIM has not doubt that diphenhydramine is a horrendous trip, but isn't that the point for some swimmers? SWIM had an awful experience with diphenhydramine, but does NOT regret it at all! SWIM feels she learned a lot from that drug...enough to never go further, but a lot about her mind and how to react when she is panicked and frightened. The pure fact that diphenhydramine overdose causes hallucinations of the delerious nature should be enough to warn swims that it will not be a fun trip like lsd could potentially be. SWIM is glad you've shared your caution. But, downright bashing it seems to be saddening for some psychonauts who see potential in danger and delerium.
  #16  
Old 17-01-2008, 02:36
El Calico Loco El Calico Loco is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Hm...I wonder...could the electrolyte imbalance be the cause of the hallucinations experienced on high-dose diphenhydramine?

Swim has had three or four DPH "trips". The first was 250mg and led to fairly strong hallucinations, mild dementia, and extreme thirst and lethargy. Subsequent attempts at higher doses (maximum 500mg) led to far greater dementia - at one point, he spent an hour or so trying to log the trip and kept forgetting what he intended to write mid-sentence - but little or no hallucinations. Could it have been because he was drinking buttloads of Gatorade? After the first time, he made sure to have some on hand to try and deal with the unquenchable thirst.

I didn't find any mentions of hypokalemia causing hallucinations on Wikipedia or healthatoz.com, but medicallook.com does seem to think it's possible:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.medicalook.com/Nutritional_supplement/Hypokalemia.html
Symptoms of hypokalemia can mimic other conditions. Symptoms include feeling weak and tired, tingling, numbness, nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramping, bloating, constipation, palpitations of the heart, excessive urinating, excessive thirst, fainting typically due to low blood pressure, or abnormal psychological behavior such as depression, confusion, psychosis, hallucinations, or delirium.
Aside from "excessive urinating" and "depression," that describes a DPH trip fairly well. If much of the DPH experience is due to low potassium rather than the anticholinergic activity, then DPH is just a small step above gasoline. Electrolyte imbalances can be deadly.

On the other hand, I can't locate any reference that says DPH lowers potassium, only mentions that it blocks potassium channels.


ECL
  #17  
Old 18-01-2008, 04:37
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Calico Loco View Post
Hm...I wonder...could the electrolyte imbalance be the cause of the hallucinations experienced on high-dose diphenhydramine?

Swim has had three or four DPH "trips". The first was 250mg and led to fairly strong hallucinations, mild dementia, and extreme thirst and lethargy. Subsequent attempts at higher doses (maximum 500mg) led to far greater dementia - at one point, he spent an hour or so trying to log the trip and kept forgetting what he intended to write mid-sentence - but little or no hallucinations. Could it have been because he was drinking buttloads of Gatorade? After the first time, he made sure to have some on hand to try and deal with the unquenchable thirst.

I didn't find any mentions of hypokalemia causing hallucinations on Wikipedia or healthatoz.com, but medicallook.com does seem to think it's possible:



Aside from "excessive urinating" and "depression," that describes a DPH trip fairly well. If much of the DPH experience is due to low potassium rather than the anticholinergic activity, then DPH is just a small step above gasoline. Electrolyte imbalances can be deadly.

On the other hand, I can't locate any reference that says DPH lowers potassium, only mentions that it blocks potassium channels.


ECL
SWIM does remember excessive urinating or the need to "go" every 5 minutes during lower dosages (250mgs to 350mgs), so that seems to fit the description for hypokalemia pretty well. Could another potential for the hallucinations be pure induced sleep deprivation as well? SWIM remembers just before the hallucinations began that her eyes seem to shift back and forth, right to left, rapidly while her eyes were still open - something disturbingly close to REM activity. Does any other swimmers who have experiences Dipehn trips have any similar experiences? SWIM also remembers noted swelling in her arms, fingers and face, and that her face and arms began very warm; symptoms she believes to be common to anticholinergic activity.

SWIM would also like to mention that she did not have gatorade during her trips, but plain water to quench the unbearable cottonmouth and thirst, so her electrolyte levels were probably quite low.
  #18  
Old 04-02-2008, 21:48
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

SWIM never takes it without double dosing his multivitams first. He finds it detracts from the more undesiarable side effects (like feeling weak, even the terrible dry mouth some). Plus the "day of recovery" he gets after his DPH trips is not as bad when taken with multivitamine or two.
  #19  
Old 08-02-2008, 02:27
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Now SWIY had such horrible side effects at such a high dose of 1200mg.... Most of the thing u mentioned barely even occur at doses like 300mg. If they do they are barely noticeable. An easy counter to the potassium is eat a banana.
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Old 04-05-2014, 17:45
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Does anybody feels their throat closed? I know you get sore throat, but i'm not sure if this explains the Ęclosed throatĘ thing. I read that closed thorat is a allergic reaction so... but if everyone feels that i guess it's just sore.

One time i was having so much paranoia and axiety that i wantes to puke but couldnt, really just couldn't.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:29
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feli View Post
Does anybody feels their throat closed? I know you get sore throat, but i'm not sure if this explains the Ęclosed throatĘ thing. I read that closed thorat is a allergic reaction so... but if everyone feels that i guess it's just sore.

One time i was having so much paranoia and axiety that i wantes to puke but couldnt, really just couldn't.
Even at 200mg I feel a slight difficulty swallowing. It's very uncomfortable! This is a sign that you should not take super high dosages. You'll notice that some people mention in their experiences that they are completely unable to speak. This can be a terrifying thing to experience!

I don't know if it's an allergic reaction, but it is pretty common.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:35
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

thankss. it sucks
  #23  
Old 09-05-2014, 13:06
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feli View Post
Does anybody feels their throat closed? I know you get sore throat, but i'm not sure if this explains the Ęclosed throatĘ thing. I read that closed thorat is a allergic reaction so... but if everyone feels that i guess it's just sore.

One time i was having so much paranoia and axiety that i wantes to puke but couldnt, really just couldn't.

Essentially having your mouth filled with cement. It is a very common side effect at trip dosages. The dry mouth is unbearable and the inability to swallow makes this a challenge. It's part of the experience. Also...DPH is an Anti-emetic, so this is a possibility why you could not vomit.





As to the OP. DPH is dangerous certainly. Overdoses resulting in death from the actual chemical are quite rare. Yes, your heart rate skyrockets. Yes, certain important chemicals are depleted. Hell, even seizures occur frequently enough on high doses (many users think these are just blackouts).

Now deaths from stupid behaviour under the influence of a deliriant? Probably much more common. Ambien is very much delirium (with some disassociation thrown in) and has led many people toward dangerous behaviours.

These are shamanic substances that require "practice" with delirious states in order to not be a danger to yourself and others. It takes skill to navigate delirium and should NEVER be taken lightly. Unless you have a strong spiritual grounding/mental grounding I would never advise any serious work with said substances.

There are rules to follow. Definitely not for everyone and proper meditation and a LOT of experience with traditional tripping substances as well as lucid dream ability is a must IMO. There are some fabulous combinations out there that involve deliriants.

By themselves? little to be gained. They are merely potentiators and mind set manipulators. I would not say they have stand alone value beyond teaching fools not to "take a bunch of benadryl". No responsible substance user attempts to access delirium in such a fashion. Tread lightly and take every precaution.

Preload/postload is a must with any substance that throws body chemicals out of whack.
  #24  
Old 22-05-2014, 21:11
Tulio_Hermil Tulio_Hermil is offline
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Re: Diphenhydramine/ Dimenhydrinate Causes Electrolyte Imbalances *Death*

tropane alkaloids in benedryl??...........

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