Addiction - IMPORTANT: GHB/GBL Addiction & Withdrawal

[kummin123]

Yes the sleep was often helped by a small amount of diazepam, never as much as 20mg. SWIM doesnt want to take high diazepam dose too close to a GHB dose. 5mg have helped sleep better than without any. Without any diazepam he usually wakes up after 6 hours, but always wait til 8 hours gone since last dose, sometimes able to fall back asleep for a few more hours. The withdrawals can start as early as 1.5hours after last dose, usually with nausua, burning in feet, a little agitation/irritated... but those effects where off after a couple of hours, or if he slept, are gone when he wake up. But other symptoms then occur 1-2 days without, like sever anxiety(no paranoia tho), depression, muscle-tremors. There have never been any hallucinations of any kind. But he rarely goes beyond day 3 of feeling like this, the anxiety gets the best of him, and since he require big doses of diazepam to counter this anxiety(needing 50-60mg per dose is not uncommon for him to completely remove this anxiety for ~4 hours), and dont want to spend his 75 5mg's / 3 weeks, all at once, he fall back to re-dose the GBL.

Originally Posted by malsat

Oh, I sent you a PM as well.

Hm, thats weird, my inbox is empty?

Thanks

sinc. Kummin
//K

[malsat]

Yes, apparently discussing sources via PM is against the rules, so I got in trouble despite the fact that gabapentin is not a recreational drug. Hrm.... :/

Anyway, on an uplifting note it sounds like SWIY will be fine! The fact that swiy can actually go for *days* without a dose of GBL means that swiy should not suffer serious WD's. The extreme cases of WD that I mentioned involve the development of delerium within only a couple of hours subsequent to the last dose.

It sounds as if the psychological aspect of wd is the hardest part for swiy. I know what this can be like. A friend of mine went through G addiction in a cyclic fashion; physical addiction, taper down, depression+anxiety, increased use, physical addiction, taper, etc.

The best thing to do is just get rid of the G. SWIY can deal with whatever wd's swiy go through with your diazepam, and taking 25mg diphenhydramine/4 hours and 1 unit of alcohol per hour will take the edge off too. It's not going to be easy but wd's never are.

[kummin123]

Originally Posted by malsat

Yes, apparently discussing sources via PM is against the rules, so I got in trouble despite the fact that gabapentin is not a recreational drug. Hrm.... :/

Plus I lost 20 of my precious rep points! Noooo!

argh that was ashame!

Thanks alot for the effort and responses, and take care!

Sinc. Kummin

[Milk man]

Malsat could you clear a few things up for me?

G use will cause downregulation of GABA-B receptors from a single use - the brain produces less and less GABA-B receptors plus upregulation of glutamate receptors (more glutamate receptors). Glutamate is the main excitatory neurotransmitter, essentially it increases neural activity. In addition there is a GHB receptor. GHB is present naturally in the brain, where it binds to GHB receptors and produces and excitatory response (increasing stimulation). When you come down from a dose of G, or stop dosing during an addiction, the combination of downregulated GABA-B plus upregulated glutamate receptors (plus the continued stimulation of GHB receptors as one comes down from a dose) produces excessive neural stimulation, hence the sudden waking effect from night-time G use.

In addiction, this produces the withdrawal effects.

When G would be used up, would the GABA-B receptors return to normal activity or would they need time to "heal"? And if a dinosaur were to stumble upon some G and wanted to use it for sleep maybe once or twice a week, would Dino be considered "safe" from most excitotoxicity if he was not addicted?

[MrG]

GHB is prescribed as a sleep aid under the name Xyrem. It is commonly used for improving the sleep quality of narcoleptic patients and, by all accounts, is remarkably successful.

Xyrem users asked to stop after having used every night for a year reported no withdrawal or side-effects.

The withdrawal problems regarding GHB stem purely from chronic use over a sustained period (repeated dosing 24/7).

As for the "healing" of receptors, I'll let Malsat take that one. I, for one, would love to hear if he has made any further progress in his research.

[Milk man]

Malsat, could you specify what part of neuroscience you are pursuing(I'm guessing medicine), as I am interested in this field and thinking of majoring in it or biochemistry.

[Lobsang]

SWIM was addicted to GBL. Drank it all day and night for aroud a year. SWIM took exactly 4 days to withdraw from it and it was terrible. SWIM was fine within a week. SWIM thinks it was a stupid drug. Did not even make SWIM feel good or gain insight. It was just stupid. (for SWIM)

[EarlGrayUK]

SWIM likes GBL actually, but hasn't used it all day or night or even daily and doesn't plan to. But he thinks that SWIY has been quite lucky to be fine within a week. Most withdrawals seem to be a lot worse after a long time of 24/7 use.

[MrG]

GHB should be viewed more as a useful medicinal aid that can have some recreational use in certain conditions.

GBL should be viewed as an industrial chemical.

[EarlGrayUK]

Maybe, but withdrawal will be bad, no matter if SWIY became addicted to GHB directly or to GBL. GHB probably won't cause harm during use though, GBL probably will.

[Lobsang]

SWIM still thinks both GHB and GBL are a waste of time. They just do not activate any decent receptors. maybe GHB for a sleep aid. But for insight or "recreation" they are just flat in SWIMs opinion.

[schiz0phren1c]

I think this is my first post on behalf of my SWIM,I will be posting more!,I have been lurking a while,and would just like to thank you all for your stories and ideas,my SWIM is waiting on his first batch of GBL,has his precursor and Pyrex ware etc ready for an attempt at conversion,and has some Diazepam on standby,SWIM is also in his 30's and been around the block vis a vis many "recreationals" and "Pyschs" and would just wonder...what IS a safe approach for a first time GHB/GBL SWIM?,I will understand if you direct me to another thread or PM,
thank you all so much for your stories,research and time.

[MrG]

Dosing 1.5g initially, followed by redosing of 1g at the 30/40 minute mark until the user feels the effects. Should the user experience a very nice but "whooshy" high, they are likely to find themselves going for a sudden nap if they continue to dose.

So says Grandma.

(1g<> 5ml of liquid GHB)

[schiz0phren1c]

Thank you a bunch from my Swim MrG
also,it is good to find another Pastafarian!,all hail the noodly one!,
I think tonight would be a good night to give thanks...with a ceremonial sacrifice of Carbonara

[EarlGrayUK]

SWIM told me that everySWIY should be aware of the huge difference between GBL and liquid GHB.

5ml of liquid GHB may be 1g of GHB, but 5ml of GBL are 6,05g of GHB!
1g GHB will have nice effects, 6g of GHB will very likely send SWIY into unawakable sleep for quite some time if not worse.

1 ml of GBL = 1,21g of pure GHB or 1,41g of NaGHB (salt)

If schiz0phren1c's SWIY did know all that, even better. But SWIM said better to be safe then sorry, especially if it's a first time with GBL/GHB.

[schiz0phren1c]

Thank you Earl Grey(thanks for the lovely cup of tea too!)
Schizo's SWIM was aware,but its the kind of thing you CANNOT hear/say/pass on enough times,like telling your kids not to play on the traintracks!,
thanks again!.

[mikeyc]

SWIM started his detox from a year of 24/7 GBL dosing on Monday morning, 00:00.

It is now Friday afternoon at 16:00. SWIM feels absolutely FANTASTIC! SWIM's on such a natural high you wouldn't believe. It makes SWIM wonder why he even decided to start using GBL in the first place!

SWIM would like to thank these forums, this thread particularly for helping SWIM through the last 5 days, which were potentially the hardest of his life.

On the weekend before, SWIM had stocked his flat with plenty of food, supplements, cigarettes, sleeping aids, vodka, juices, clean clothes and bedsheets etc.

On Monday, SWIM felt fine at first, the anxiety started to kick in, along with some tremours. SWIM watched TV, surfed the net etc. Night time fell, and SWIM decided to try to get himself some sleep. Sleeping aids such as Valerium and 5HTP, as well as over the counter Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride. Nothing worked, SWIM could barely drift off for ten minutes. Eventually, SWIM pulled the vodka out and had about six shots worth with Juice. SWIM eventually slept for about two hours.

Tuesday, SWIM "woke up" groggy and extermely anxious. His stomach was so tight he could not eat. SWIM was in a panic, chain smoking. SWIM could not focus on the TV or on anything he read on the interenet. SWIM didn't want to answer the phone or leave the room. Eventually SWIM showered and just sat in. For about three hours midday, SWIM felt reasonably calm, it felt beautiful, he tells! SWIM managed to eat at this point. Soon enough, though, the anxiety, tremours and panic attacks came back on a large scale. That night, SWIM decided to use sleeping aids but went all out on the vodka and mixers. A good half litre of vodka made SWIM sleep for 3 hours. When SWIM woke, he drank another half litre and a sleeping tablet (DH) to knock himself out for another EIGHT HOURS.

Wednesday, the effects were much more diluted, anxiety to calm, anxiety to calm, except with shorter intervals. SWIM managed to leave the house for half an hour for a brisk walk. SWIM ate a bit more, also. SWIM felt like he had gone potentially mad at some points during Wednesday, not even being able to look at the TV. This was more a result of claustrophobia from sitting in his room, SWIM thought, hence why he walked out for a bit. Sleeping was pretty much the same as the night before, but with only one dosage of 1/2 lite of vodka.

Thursday SWIM felt so much better, although the anxiety attacks in the morning were still quite strong. SWIM went out, saw some friends, and would you believe it, dosed off naturally for a nap around midday. Although, the doctor tells SWIM that this is BAD as it means SWIM will potentially sleep WORSE at night. Thursday night SWIM managed to get to sleep on a few vodkas, and slept for 11 hours!

Today, Friday, SWIM woke up with slight anxiety, but by this point could eat normally (breakfast, lunch etc) SWIM also senses his sex drive is coming back into play (SWIM tell that throught the first three days SMIM had absolutely ZERO sex drive whatsoever!) SWIM is not off to the gym, to try some light exercise and to try to get his body back.

Tonight, SWIM will try to sleep naturally without alcohol. SWIM understands that alcohol causes insomnia itself! So, if SWIM cannot get to sleep naturally he will use sleeping aids to ween off the vodka. SWIM is also avoiding caffeine!

SWIM would be very happy to answer anyones questions on his experiences!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent first post, many thanks for sharing.

[MrG]

Thank you for a very informative first post.

Could you explain how and why SWIY ended up in a 24/7 GBL habit please?

[mikeyc]

SWIM started his 24/7 habit as follows:

He took his first shot of GBL in a nightclub at the beginning of 2007, given by a friend. As SWIM loved his experience, he began seeking out GBL every time he went clubbing in future.

SWIM soon researched online about GBL. He found that GBL activates the pituitary gland and increases the release of HGH. SWIM therefore decided to take GBL before going to the gym!?!

Before long SWIM could not sleep without a hand from GBL. It also became more common amongst his friends. Soon enough, it was more than normal for SWIM to take GBL in regular bars, when sunbathing, or "G-Shopping". SWIM felt terrible but he justified it as "anti-aging" and "cheap, unlike coke, so, who cares? Plus, it's not addictive!!"

However, SWIM was adamant NOT to use it at work, 9-5. He was terrified at the thought.

A normal weekend included a Saturday evening to Sunday Afternoon blowout on MDMA, Speed, Coke, K (small amounts), and GBL.

Which brings me to SWIM's next point, he said that GBL completely removed the comedown effect of all the other drugs he would have taken over the weekend. Taking GBL all Sunday, Monday and Tuesday Evenings, after work, to mask the comedown as much as possible became all to much of a regular occurance.

Soon enough, SWIM lost his 9-5 job. Probably not from the GBL use, but from the effects of the other drugs. SWIM was in panic. What was to help SWIM? Trying to find a new job was terrifying. "Luckily", SWIM had GBL to make it all better.

SWIM managed to keep up with the gym throught, though. One day at the gym, SWIM was spotted by a photographer and asked to do some shots for him. Sounds very good for SWIM, yes? SWIM assumed it would take no more than 3 hours, and so he did not pack and GBL with him.

The shoot lasted 8 hours. By the sixth hour, SWIM's heart was beating out of his chest, he had violent tremors. SWIM ran out of the studio to the nearest bar and necked 3 large glasses of white wine (that he could barely hold-he was shaking so badly).

SWIM just about managed to get through the rest of the day, but decided a full 24/7 detox was required ASAP. SWIM came home, had some GBL, and planned his detox.

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent explanation of how easy it is to fall into the 24/7 trap.

[MrG]

Kanthor, could you update that thread with the current situation SWIY is in with regards to his G use please? I am quite interested in reports of users who have switched from 24/7 dosing to something more akin to rec or sleep use as opposed to kicking completely.

Again, thank you for the valuable insight mikeyc.

I do have one bugbear though:

Originally Posted by mikeyc

SWIM therefore decided to take GBL before going to the gym!?!

This appears to be quite a common factor in people who are taking G for body building gains. SWIM tried a workout on a v.light dose of G once and all it did was make him sweat like a bastard.

Most gym-bunnies know that heavy lifting exercise is designed to push the muscle to the point that it is repaired overnight, bigger and stronger.

So why take the G at workout time when, if it were to be taken as a sleep aid, the GH release phase is applicable to the muscle repair taking place?

Anyhoo, that's wandering off-topic a bit.

Mikeyc, I am assuming that SWIY was unaware of the 24/7 dosing dangers at the time he "strayed" into it. At which point did he realise the seriousness of the situation he was in and what was his response?

[Kanthor]

Nice to read that SWIY managed to kick his 24/7 GBL habit, especially cold turkey. Congrats!

SWIM was a 24/7'er aswell, and managed to kick it this summer. However he went to university again, after 3 years of working alone at home, and he found that GBL was a very good aid in socialization process. He decided to do it only during college hours & for sleep, but found himself using 24/7 again without really noticing it.
Except for one day when SWIM went out and smoked a joint with some friends. After an hour or so SWIM became very anxious and at unease, and realized that it was because his last dose of G wore off and he didn't have any with him. A small panic attack broke lose, and he made a run towards home and G. This was SWIM's moment to realize that he needed to withdraw again.
SWIM can only imagine how hard the photo shoot must have been for SWIY, respect that he managed to get through it. SWIM loves the fact that he seriously planned his detox and pulled through.

SWIM uses a different detox method then cold-turkey, you can read about it in : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63363
As per that system, SWIM did 16hrs without G today so is making good progress of being (WD effect) clean again.

What SWIM wants to say to other addicts out there..: don't fear the withdrawal process. Sure it is hard, but with proper planning it is certainly doable. Don't let fear for a heavy withdrawal prevent you from trying to do so. Better sooner then later.

[mikeyc]

Hi MrG,

Yes, SWIM was completely unaware of the 24/7 dosing dangers. He thought that GBL was a drug you could take whenever you want without the chance of any kind of reliance building up. SWIM would definately never have considered an anxiety response from a withdrawal; he was just naive.

As for taking GBL before the gym, SWIM definately misread and was misinformed. SWIM now thinks that it was very likely he just wanted to get high every evening and feel good, but needed to justify it by means of "it's good for the gym". This, in turn, led SWIM to make equal stupid justifications throughout the rest of his day to day life.

SWIM realised the situation was very serious on two occasions:

1. When he could not sleep at a friends house. Having to ask for a shot of GBL (if they even had any!!) at some stupid early hour of the morning made SWIM feel rediculous, and even more anxious. It is EVEN WORSE when you know the person a lot less.

This was also the case wherever he slept- a family member or friends house; where GBL was not readily available, and where SWIM was less than happy to bring GBL with him. SWIM knew that alcohol worked, but was not happy with letting family and friends think he must drink 1 litre of vodka to get some sleep!

2. The fact that in order to keep a habit like this up, SWIM needed to carry a load of GBL with him, including drinks, a pipette, and a cup to mix it all together, down and then chase it.

If SWIM did not, anxiety attacks could come on at any time when the GBL wore off. God forbid that any real anxiety came your way (think earthquake, or police stop and search!!) As SWIM did not like to carry GBL with him, instead relying on short trips out and about from his home, came unstuck several times, causing terrible anxiety and the need to run home, in fear.

This was hugely magnified when the photographer SWIM met at the gym asked him if he would like to have some pictures taken, for work. As SWIM was out of work at the time, he was overjoyed.

However when SWIM underestimated the whole scenario to take 3 hours rather than 8 he was left unstuck, and by the sixth hour could barely hold a glass of wine without spilling the contents. SWIM was so embarrassed, and anxious, he could not bear to take public transport home, or walk (25 mins away from the studio). In a panic, he grabbed the nearest cab and broke down inside. He did not even wait for change from the driver. He then locked himself in his room and immediately had a shot of GBL.

2ml only relieved part of the anxiety for half an hour, when he decided to redose 1ml's every galf hour for the next two hours or so- more than SWIM has EVER dosed! He normally only doses 1.5-2ml every 2-3 hours.

In SWIM's semi sober state he knew he had a problem, reflected, and researched online. He decided that the following Monday, in two days time, was the date to call an end to it.

Kanthor, SWIM says thank you, and congratulations to SWIY! He should be so proud of himself, especially since he was studying whilst detoxing. SWIM had the "luxury" of having no job, so cold turkey was a viabl option for him.

To others who are scared of the detox, SWIM says that it is WORSE for you to have an unexpected anxiety panic attack in public, than if you PLAN a detox withdrawl and suffer some anxiety in the safety of your home.

[MrG]

Good advice.

Given that SWIY got to the point of realising he needed to quit, how long did it take him to find the information he needed and where from?

[mikeyc]

As soon as SWIM got home, had a shot and calmed down, (this took perhaps 3 hours) he immediately got onto the internet.

SWIM was already a member of drugs-forum.co.uk, so a quick search for GBL addiction brought this thread up within seconds. The rest is history for SWIM.

SWIM tells me that he stumbled upon drugs-forum.co.uk whilst googling information about amphetamine earlier on in the year, at which point he became a member.

[MrG]

Interesting, considering he already was a member of D-F why wasn't he reading the GHB forum whilst he was using G?

I'm interested to know if there is anything more we can do here to promote a better understanding of GHB/GBL and I wonder if it is simply a case of people not getting to the important threads quick enough. Maybe a few stickies are needed to cover the basic info in order for users to become acquainted with the facts *before* they get their asses kicked.