Addiction - IMPORTANT: GHB/GBL Addiction & Withdrawal

[Shuras_Lab_assistant]

SWIM just made it trough! Finally now, SWIM hopes.

SWIM started taking GBL and/or GHB last March an stopped December. SWIM first noticed some "side-effects" after stopping high-dose use after one month.
It resulted in a week without sleep and some strange sensations, after that week SWIM started again and was completely lost.

Each withdrawal will get worse and you will reach a point where you will either fall asleep or feel bad after dosing.
SWIM attempted tapering down twice before he finally could stop.
In the end SWIM was consuming about 35ml/day (once i took 100g of NaGHB over the course of a day!) and tapered down to 0,6ml/3h over the course of 2 weeks.
These weeks were the hardest of SWIMs life and he finally went to a doctor (The doc is working with addiction, mainly heroin and alc and benzos) with 3 studies about GHB in my pocket,
because i thought the doc wouldn't understand SWIMs situation. SWIM spent these weeks in the bed, only getting up for my evening classes and finally getting up to visit the doc.
SWIM had a bad tremor (SWIM couldn't hold a pencil), spooky heartbeats (SWIM tells it feels like if you've run a marathon) and SWIM was sweating - These were the hardest symptoms.
SWIM also dreamed a lot and had bad nightmares IF it was possible to get some hrs of sleep. It was quite embarrassing - SWIM considered himself well educated about drugs...

The doc was quite open-minded.
She prescribed SWIM a bottle of diazepam solution by my request then. If you are really addicted to that GBL you can't just stop, SWIM tells!
If you were using 24/7 and high doses, tapering first is a must!
SWIM was terrified by the idea of going on detox and beeing locked up.
Diazepam provides great relief and is a basic requirement I-SWIMs-O if you want to stop. BUT PLZ DO IT WITH A DOC, SWIM tells!
The second time SWIM tried to stop without supervision by a doc, SWIM ended up taking lorazepam and alprazolam together with the GHB
and that made things even worse as you can imagine!
SWIM could supply some schedules for tapering GBL/GHB as well as for tapering the diazepam. The schedules for tapering GBL are hard!
So if you've got a job, take 2 weeks off at least! Your doc will give you a sick note, at least SWIMs did, so he could delay his Latin exams.

SWIM took the last mgs of diazepam 5 days ago and feels fine.
SWIM has some minor sleep problems but he took that benzo for 3 weeks so SWIM was prepared.
The key is just to use as much diazepam as needed to relief the most serious problems, SWIM tells.
10,9mg (midpoint value) per day were sufficient - SWIM also didn't believe that before i must say...

Tapering from there was done in a week, maybe a little fast but SWIM's off now.
His next appointment with the doc is Tuesday, she is looking forward and SWIM does, too!
Maybe they could make up a guide to get off GBL, as well as putting together a collection of studies to print out in order to get the doc's informed.
SWIM supplied quite some material, 3 studies to get the doc informed and schedules for tapering down before your visit. (PM me, SWIMs notes are available)

Reputation Comments on this post:

this will promote you to silver member on the condition that you read the rules and take out the self incrimination in t...

[Arlo]

Rookie question,
24/7 would imply the continual use 24 hrs a day, seven day's a week. Couple questions:
-Does use every day, lets say, starting at 6:00 pm until SWIY falls asleep count at 24/7 use?
more importantly..
-What are the indications of physical addiction with this?

If SWIY is experiencing the "Sudden Waking" syndrome mentioned above, is this an issue or just normal for the the use of the substance?
-Arlo

[MrG]

Originally Posted by Arlo

If SWIY is experiencing the "Sudden Waking" syndrome mentioned above, is this an issue or just normal for the the use of the substance?
-Arlo

It is normal to experience the sudden waking but it can be avoided by taking multiple, small doses during the evening. e.g. 7.5ml(1.5g) initial followed by 5ml(1g) doses at 30-40min intervals for the evening should get things nicely relaxed and, more importantly, controlled (as long as SWIY has stopped his concomitant alchohol use and I hope he has).

24/7 use is nothing to be worried about as it is something that one would need to actually begin doing consciously. G is *not* a compulsive substance.

Those who have found themselves dosing 24/7 are usually victims of having found it worked well to combat anxiety related disorders and, having started using it in small doses during the day, wind up *having* to dose 24/7.

If G, like most drugs, is used to mask a problem, that problem will still be there when you stop. Only with having dosed 24/7 on G you'll add a whole load of new, interesting problems.

[Arlo]

SWIM has stopped drinking booze concurrently, he does wonder however if the advise is to obtain the entire evening or just a certain amount of time after a shot?

-Arlo

[xsyn]

SWIM says that the sudden waking is par for the course. SWIM also says to be aware of taking any substance as an anchor for sleep may be a bad idea, SWIM takes melatonin, and is relaxed doing so, and is also very aware that taking melatonin all the time is not a great idea.

SWIM says the body takes about 24 hours to regenerate back to it's default setting, that's on the assumption that 24/7 abuse has not been going on for more than a month, and by 24/7 he means 6 pm to 6 pm and then taking another dose.

As with any substance, any thing, mediation is key. get SWIY to try 4 nights sober to every night he takes. Might tell SWIY something about how well he is actually sleeping, and then from there make an education decision on whether that amount is too much.

SWIM's warning is that he moved from taking 3 doses an evening to taking a large amount during the day. He's never taken 24/7 for more than a week, and he goes through large detox periods. It's been since NYE for him this year. SWIM has a found some very useful rules:

1) Never take to sleep
2) Never take first thing in the morning to wake up
3) Always ask "Why am I taking this dose? What is the purpose, what is the outcome?"
4) Never keep much around
5) Once supply is finished always take a 2 day break before having more, if DT's occur in that period, take a larger break.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	sensible advice.
	Ditto on the sensible advice.

[MrG]

Sorry mate, not sure what you mean by "obtain the entire evening" did you mean "abstain the entire evening"?

If so then yes, SWIY should abstain from alcohol the entire evening he is doing G.

Yes it is possible to dose both G and alcohol and there not be any problems as long as it isn't overdone but, fuckit, why take the risk?

IMO a user who thinks that they can responsibly have *some* g and *some* booze is more likely to come home, rolling drunk from a night out, and think to themselves "I know, a decent shot of G will be great at this point". Then they go right ahead and ruin their fun by involuntarily quitting their favourit habit - breathing.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for all your helpful posts and efforts lately :)

[yabbi]

Originally Posted by MrG

IMO a user who thinks that they can responsibly have *some* g and *some* booze is more likely to come home, rolling drunk from a night out, and think to themselves "I know, a decent shot of G will be great at this point". Then they go right ahead and ruin their fun by involuntarily quitting their favourit habit - breathing.

SWIM couldn't have said it better MrG, there are apparently still folks who combine those two. They either can't read or are just plain stupid to begin with. SWIM always reads as much as he can find before even attempting anything new.

Then again SWIM sees the OP posting something like 100grams of G in a day ..... so SWIMS guess is he's a troll

[Shuras_Lab_assistant]

Originally Posted by yabbi

SWIM couldn't have said it better MrG, there are apparently still folks who combine those two. They either can't read or are just plain stupid to begin with. SWIM always reads as much as he can find before even attempting anything new.

Then again SWIM sees the OP posting something like 100grams of G in a day ..... so SWIMS guess is he's a troll

SWIM is definitely not a troll. It were about 100g, but NaGHB. If SWIM needed about 30ml of GBL at that time just to make the withdrawal symptoms to go away, 100g of NaGHB were needed if SWIM wanted to feel an effect

[MrG]

Yabbi, there are well documented cases of people taking very large amounts of G over a 24 hour period. Of course it is because they are in the 24/7 trap.

100g is not unheard of. It is a damn awful situation to be in but one hopes that a site such as this can help to inform people enough to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.

Shuras, can you explain in more detail how and why SWIY ended up dosing G to the extent that he ended up 24/7 ?

[Shuras_Lab_assistant]

Originally Posted by MrG

Yabbi, there are well documented cases of people taking very large amounts of G over a 24 hour period. Of course it is because they are in the 24/7 trap.

100g is not unheard of. It is a damn awful situation to be in but one hopes that a site such as this can help to inform people enough to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.

Shuras, can you explain in more detail how and why SWIY ended up dosing G to the extent that he ended up 24/7 ?

Of course.

SWIM started using G about 10 months ago. A liter of it wouldn't be expensive so SWIM always had a big stash. SWIM started taking it every other day, then every day. SWIM just has to take evening classes, meaning SWIM can stay in bed as long as SWIM wants.

SWIM took that stuff before his classes, when SWIM visited friends or to have sex with his girlfriend. SWIM searched the web for information on this substance, but almost all sources tell that it is not physical addictive, not harmful and that it promotes good sleep.

When SWIM first realized that taking that stuff so often isn't good for him he stopped suddenly and couldn't sleep for a week but had strange dreams. That was 6-8 weeks after he started. He thought it might be a common side effect and wasn't worried about it, he didn't realize that these were withdrawal symptoms and was fine after that week.

He decided not to take it for sleep then but ended up taking it multiple times day soon after that decision. Then G took control of SWIM but he didn't worry about that, because he still thought it was a harmless and non addictive substance.

Thats how it went the next 2 months, when his girlfriend realized how strange his behavior was she told him she was worried because of the strange sounds SWIM made while he slept. Sometimes she was up all night worrying about him and almost called an ambulance once because she thought he could stop breathing.

SWIM felt really bad after that and knew that he HAD TO STOP, so SWIM searched for some foreign sources on that substance and found the well known study of the poison control center from texas. SWIM was frightened, but he didn't take that stuff over such a long period of time as the suject in the study, but he realized that he would suffer bad withdrawal symptoms.

These came up when SWIM didn't took that stuff to get sleep or to feel normal trough the day. About 3-5 doses a day were needed that time, but i took a lot more because i still wanted the effect. SWIM has access to almost all pharms which are not considered narcotics by local law so swim decided to stock up on diazepam and bromazepam for withdrawal. (Well benzos are considered narcotics, but only if they are either injectable or exceed a certain dose per unit)

When SWIM took his last dose of G he already had ingested quite some benzo's, SWIM could stay away for about 2 weeks from G while being on high dose benzos, when SWIM tapered the benzos he started to take an equal amount of G to get high. SWIM really missed the effects of G that time and he hated being fucked up on booze (in the evening) and benzos all day.

SWIM ended up taking 2 weeks high dose benzos and booze and decided that being addicted to benzos and booze would be even worse and started taking G again but in much larger dose. Some weeks later SWIM thought that short acting benzos might be better for withdrawing but he also failed with lorazepam and alprazolam...

The next months were followed by 2 attemps to taper down, SWIM wasn't making GHB any more and took GBL most of the time. During that time SWIM found out that 24ml a day plus some ml for sleep were needed to get trough the day and to feel ok at evening classes. SWIM realized that if he wouldn't stop now it would only get worse and the G had no effect on him anymore besides knocking him out with the right dose.

SWIM tapered down to 12ml/day and stayed there for a while. SWIM spend most of his time in his bed for some weeks and finally tapered as SWIM told in his first post.

He is fine now but he still has the feeling that his heart is beating too intense. bp is normal. SWIM did a lot of sports before he started taking G so it might be due to that.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thanks for sharing
	interesting post

[Shuras_Lab_assistant]

BTW:
SWIM thinks that GHB withrdawal is more intense in the psychological sense (anxiety, nightmares, strange mind states)
GBL withdrawal is more taxing on the body (sweating, body aching, tremor...)

SWIM could deal better GBL but it is harder to keep a strict schedule for some people.

[MrG]

Originally Posted by Shuras_Lab_assistant

He decided not to take it for sleep then but ended up taking it multiple times day soon after that decision.

This is the part I would like SWIY to explain. Why did he take it multiple times per day? What was he hoping to gain from that?

Originally Posted by Shuras_Lab_assistant

found the well known study of the poison control center from texas. SWIM was frightened, but he didn't take that stuff over such a long period of time as the suject in the study,

Can you provide a link (not a hyperlink, just the address) to that study as I haven't heard of that particular one. TBH most US studies on GHB are BS unless they concern Xyrem (pharma GHB).

[Shuras_Lab_assistant]

Originally Posted by MrG

This is the part I would like SWIY to explain. Why did he take it multiple times per day? What was he hoping to gain from that?

SWIM just liked to be high, also SWIM had vacations that time
he also did quite some speed and that goes well with G but causes your tolerance to build up faster.
SWIM doesn't have anxiety problems or such.

Originally Posted by MrG

Can you provide a link (not a hyperlink, just the address) to that study as I haven't heard of that particular one. TBH most US studies on GHB are BS unless they concern Xyrem (pharma GHB).

http://rapidshare.com/files/77991098...terial.ghb.zip

There are 2 other studies inside also, all of them are a very interesting read.

[kareena]

Very nice posts Malsat.

I was wondering whether SWIY could suggest the dose and duration a 24/7 G user might need to take pregabalin to ward off harm and excitotoxicity? I realise everybody is different but there must be a rough dosage and duration of that daily dosage that a user might use?

I think knowing a rough estimate would be a useful starting point for any SWIY unfortunate enough to befell 24/7 dosing although I agree seeking medical advice is paramount when a serious addiction has developed.

[malsat]

I couldn't say really as it would depend on the extent of the addiction. Whatever dosage you need to make the withdrawals bearable would be what I'd go with.

[MrG]

Hey malsat, any further development on your excitotoxicity theory?

I am very interested in seeing if you can take this concept further because I think there might be a tipping point between GHB use which could be considered "mostly harmless" and dosing that strays over the boundaries.

The two different states of dosing need to be looked at more carefully I think, in that, a dosing schedule a la Xyrem which is at least four hours apart and recreational dosing which can often be less than an hour apart. GHB on the way in meeting the physiological condition of GHB on its way out, so to speak.

[Kanthor]

After reading this topic, SWIM is left with a few practical answers that remained unanswered

To what extent is a GBL withdrawal more severe then GHB withdrawal? Is it worth it to convert to GHB (with all the risks of a bad batch, unknown dosing, etc)?

When can SWIM expect to feel withdrawal symptoms? SWIM 'accidently' used 15ml GBL 24/7 for last week, but doesn't feel like dropping the habbit fully.

When can SWIM expect to have no withdrawal symptoms? Could SWIM consider taking 8ml/day and taking 1 day off /week safe? What if SWIM would put in a safety margin of 3-days quitting / month, to see if withdrawal symptoms occur?

GBL is helping SWIM explore areas in life, he would not otherwise dared to visit, and there is a lot more to discover. However SWIM puts health&sanity first.

[yabbi]

Originally Posted by Kanthor

GBL is helping SWIM explore areas in life, he would not otherwise dared to visit, and there is a lot more to discover. However SWIM puts health&sanity first.

Those look seem to me like contradictions

Dosing 24/7, even with a day off so to speak, is definitely not a sane idea with any substance, wether it is *G*, or any drug. SWIM doesn't see why one would even think of dosing 24/7 to make him feel happy Life's all about ups and downs, accept it and you'll love the high times...
SWIM likes, no, he even loves G , but uses it on occasion, sometimes once or twice a week, sometimes once in a month. But always when in a good mood, proper surroundings and with the people he loves.

so far SWIM's .002 on this one, good luck anyways!

[Kanthor]

Thanks for your reaction yabbi. I can understand your point of view.
SWIM is an online poker player, doing this for a living... also he's on the stock market. He's had a very rough time in the last couple o' years. And since he's working 60-80hrs / week, from his home office... he doesn't get out a lot & socialize. This brought him into a social isolement... coupled with the enormous stressful life that he has, GHB brought light into his life. Every aspect of his life has improved due to it, from sleeping to socializing to cooping with the ups & downs, relieving his depression etc.

So he's really ehh deliberately choosing to self-medicate on GBL, since it is harmless and provides him with the effects that he requires. However today SWIM has been reading about these enormous withdrawals, and that got him scared and down again hehe...

That's why I'd like to know to what extent SWIM can safely use GBL to self-medicate on.

[xsyn]

Mate, I would suggest that you suggest to your SWIM that he stop.

My SWIM got heavily involved, and my SWIM runs an awesome life, apparently the withdrawals suck massively. SWIM got sucked in because his life is hectic, so spending time going through the withdrawals is difficult, because he can't find a second to have a low. The time is apparently worth finding, just a couple of days, there's a trap for individuals who lead busy lifestyles, and it's a big trap. Trust SWIM.

[Kanthor]

See this is what SWIM means. Everytime he thinks he's out of a low, and finds renewed energy to start life again... he gets hit down hard again. How do you think He's feeling right now? After being depressed for 3 years, finally finding something that helps him, then finding out it will give him a delirium after a few months of 'living a nice life'.

[xsyn]

Apparently GHB/GBL make really good antihistamines, SWIM checked the symptoms of being hyperstamic and it does in fact look like SWIM suffers from it. He started a course Methionin, which is just an antihistamine, and it does wonders for getting him out of bed in the morning now.

[MrG]

Kanthor, please read the rules and do not incriminate yourself.

As for chronic GHB use, it can put a user into what is reportedly a very nasty habit to break. Dosing 24/7 is *not* a smart move.

As far as current research goes (and there is a lot of it due to GHB's use in pharmacology under the trade name Xyrem), using it NIGHTLY is fine and is not likely to lead to cessation issues. Using it daily and nightly with constant dosing, however, is *NOT* ok.

GHB is not a moreish substance, *you* have to consciously begin a 24/7 dosing regime but, once done, it is widely reported as being a bastard of a withdrawal.

So don't do it.

[kummin123]

Exellent post malsat! let me paint you a pretend scenario.

Lets say SWIM been using GBL on a multiple daily regim. around 1-1.5ml every 1 / 1.5 hour when awake, for about 6 months. Not during night tho, usually gets around 8-9 hours of good sleep without any re-dosing.

He do exhibits a few of the withdrawal symptoms, agitation, "hypercondria"(bodily paranoia?), severe anxiety, nasua, burning sensations in feet to mention a few.

Now, seeking medicaly assistance is A NO GO for SWIM. It could land him in jail if very unlucky, it will for sure sabotage his psychiatric treatment for social phobia and GAD, since his G.P is very picky and will def. be notified for such process even if taken care in a totally diff. unit. So its NOT A CHOICE. it just cant be done.

Do SWIY have experience in self-medicating through rough withdrawals?
If so, What could SWIM do, to help him self. Is gabapentin available online?

If tapering down the GBL, would you be able to tell me what amounts worked for SWIY for tappering down?

All other advice for self-medication thru this "could happen" scenario would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Forgot to mention, SWIM will have access to 20-30mg of Diazepam(Valium) daily.

PLUR

sinc. Kummin

[malsat]

I'm amazed SWIY managed to sleep so well through GBL addiction; presumably SWIY've been using the diazepam to sleep at night?

I'm afraid tapering isn't really an option for heavy withdrawal, which is certainly what I'd expect after six months. SWIY'd have to endure a very long, slow taper (full blown WD can last up to 2 weeks, so a taper would last a good deal longer) because anything faster (I imagine) would inevitably result in delerium developing, and once a person reaches delerium it's *very unlikely* that a person will realise what's going on and in that confusion end up not dosing and slipping into *complete* withdrawal, which at it's peak can leave a person completely catatonic, if not dead.

But that's a worst case scenario. I imagine that 8 hours off a night, despite diazepam (I'm assuming SWIY was taking it at night), has helped. How soon after SWIY's last dose do WD's begin? 1-1.5 hours, or longer? How intense are they? Does swiy start to feel confused at all, or have swiy had any auditory/visual hallucinations? Has swiy's anxiety ever progressed to significant paranoia?

BTW, if swiy wasn't taking diazepam at night and has actually been getting 8-9 hours sleep without any g or sedatives, a taper will be easy and swiy could be g free within a week, or even days.

Oh, I sent you a PM as well.