Can drug use be controlled after addiction, or is abstinence the only way?

[TheBlackPope]

I know that AA believe that "once an addict, always an addict," but I've seen plenty of people who have kicked the habit for a while and then got into it slowly and didn't let it control them, or just switched drugs and kept it under control.

Is this an accepted school of thought at all? Or do scientist tend to side w/ AA and the common accepted thought processes?

[23smooches]

I personally think that an addictive personality will simply find new things to devote their time, money and life to. Such as TV or even internet if not drugs. I dont think its possible to have control over your addiction or substance. When you subjugate your mind and body to a substance, it has control over you physically, as well as metally in some cases. Ive heard plenty of meth-heads say that they werent addicted and they could stop whenever they wanted. In fact I have heard the same about cigarettes and alchohol, and just about every substance. If you dont need it, why are you using it in the first place? If youve overcome an addiction with a particular substance, but you go back to it, thinking you have control over it, your still addicted and you are lying to yourself. If you are not comfortable in your own skin while sober, you need to take a breather from all drugs including alchohol and nicotine, and sort your problems out. No organization will ever help you overcome your addiction, they are only there to assist. You are ultimately responsible for your mind and you have the power to live without depending on plants. Addiction stems from deep within your sub-consciousness. Its hard to overcome, but it can be done. I myself come from a long line of addictive personalities, and it is not so much genetic as it is inherited through observations of the behaviour of your peers and parents.
my 2cents

[JaWill88]

yeah swim bought into AA/NA for a while but woke up one day and realized its a bunch of crap that controls your life just as much as drug/alcohol addiction. anyways swim used to use heroin intravenously everyday at least three times a day, sometimes a gram or more in a shot (black tar). and also shoot coke anytime swim had any extra $ or other people had it so swim shot coke or smoked crack almost every day as well. swim has been using drugs for maybe 5 or 6 years. this terrible habbit ended 1 year ago. swim got on suboxone but for a while continued to use heroin and cocaine but not quite as frequently (maybe a couple times a week) and was attending meetings. its funny because as soon as swim stopped attending meetings and moved on with his life, he started to stay clean a little more and a little more as time went on. now swim lifts weights about 5 times a week, skateboards, and just hangs out with friends. things swim never did with a habbit. once an addict, always an addict? bullshit. thats a terribly negative way of thinking. and going to meetings for life? come on... thats also very negative. people just have to grow out of their addiction and find things they like just as much as getting high. to this day swim gets high every once in a while. swim did a shot of heroin maybe like a month ago. it felt good, but whatever, it wasnt a big deal. swim even did a shot of coke like an hour ago, bought a half gram. swim did one damn shot and lost the bag and needle, then found the coke but not the needle, and decided to go home because he had another needle there... and guess what?? the coke was gone! lol it was ridiculous. but anyways 2 minutes later swim didn't give a shit and here he is now typing this. btw swim hadnt done coke in a while either. sorry for going on and on but this topic really hits a spot for him and is glad swiy brought it up. point of all this? lots of people gain control of their lives again and continue to use sometimes. but in this day and age is this an accepted way of being? hell no. try going to outpatient treatment and tell them that! or a meeting! they will only say negative things and you will be fucked for life. well FUCK THAT!

[DMBRaven]

I can understand both arguments discussed here. I'm a little curious however, what kind of step should be taken if someone becomes addicted to a prescribed medication that is needed. I guess my question is, is it possible for that person to return to the original prescribed dosage without feeling the urge to "just take one extra pill" all the time? Will that thought and "need for just a little more" ever completely leave a person's mind if they are prescribed to take it daily?

[JaWill88]

DMBRaven,

eventually, in time. swiy just has to move on in life to other things. like said above, find something/someone that swiy likes just as much as getting high. the main thing is finding something to fill the void. for swim, this has been weightlifting. its not just something swim does, its a lifestyle. swims days revolve around lifting weights. swim has to plan his meals, workouts, all kinds of stuff. eat the right foods and stuff. it has made swim so much healthier physically and mentaly which is extremely important. swiy has to leave addiction behind and fill the void with a new lifestyle before swiy can go back to what should have been. swim is perscribed to suboxone and wasnt doing anything to change his lifestyle. swim was at 32mg and then started to taper. as swim tapered he kept taking the same amount, sometimes more. but now that swim has done things to change his lifestyle, he has gone down to 8mg and doesn't feel the need to take more. why? becuase he doesn't care about that specific feeling anymore.

[DMBRaven]

JaWill88,

Thanks for the reply. It really makes a lot of sense and is very helpful. Swim isn't, I guess you could say, "a full-blown" addict, but they have been misusing their adderall rx by taking more in a day then is prescribed which causes them to run out early. This leads to not having any for 2 weeks causing severe depression, lethargy, just feeling blah.... until they can get the next rx filled. it's a vicious vicious cycle to say the least. Swim just wants to go back to the day when they were first prescribed the drug and only needed as it was prescribed....without feeling like they need to take more in order for it to work. The reason that swim began to increase their dosage in the first place was because they grew a tolerance for the prescribed dosage (never asked the Dr if uping the dose was a possible idea because swim attends college and they are VERY hesitant about handing out adderall rx and swim thinks that it is probably permanently implanted in the back of their minds that all college kids just want adderall as a study aid....even though swim actually NEEDS it)

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good questions and postings, thanks for sharing and for learning to "swim" :)

[Fight Club]

NIK thinks that addiction (at any level) is just a form of obsessive / compulsive behavior, albeit once that involves a self-destructive compulsion. Running, weight lifting, reading, cycling are just more virtuous and healthy compulsions. NIK believes that getting healthy involves working on both sides; (finding a way to avoid obsession and the corresponding triggers for compulsive behavior along with finding healthier "compulsions" while you are working on the psychological stuff).

FWIW, NIK finds that attending meetings, hanging with sober folk, and working the steps helps him "quiet" his obsession with cocaine.

FC

[DMBRaven]

Fight Club,

I see what you mean. However, swim can't concentrate long enough to engage in any of the activities that was mentioned (reading, running, anything really) unless swim takes their ADD meds. Swim has tried using herbal supplements like Ginkgo Biloba as an alternative, but it really doesn't help.

[JaWill88]

Fight Club,


swim completely 100% agrees that addiction at any level no matter how bad, is basically an obsessive compulsive disorder. one just has to learn other ways of life.

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by DMBRaven

Thanks for the reply. It really makes a lot of sense and is very helpful. Swim isn't, I guess you could say, "a full-blown" addict, but they have been misusing their adderall rx by taking more in a day then is prescribed which causes them to run out early. This leads to not having any for 2 weeks causing severe depression, lethargy, just feeling blah.... until they can get the next rx filled. it's a vicious vicious cycle to say the least. Swim just wants to go back to the day when they were first prescribed the drug and only needed as it was prescribed....without feeling like they need to take more in order for it to work. The reason that swim began to increase their dosage in the first place was because they grew a tolerance for the prescribed dosage (never asked the Dr if uping the dose was a possible idea because swim attends college and they are VERY hesitant about handing out adderall rx and swim thinks that it is probably permanently implanted in the back of their minds that all college kids just want adderall as a study aid....even though swim actually NEEDS it)

yes when swim first got on suboxone (buprenorphine) he actually got kind of high on it. it was awesome. but swim grew tolerant and no matter how much swim took he could never achieve that feeling again (it has ceiling effect). anyways swim went through this same vicious cycle every month. and his was even worse in a certain way because buprenorphine is an opioid and they are physically addicting. swim would sell a bunch of his pills or take more than was supposed to and never have enough for the month. the longest he ever had them for was like 3 weeks at a time. so every month swim would feel horrible withdrawal and often do heroin to get rid of it and that defeats the purpose of being on suboxone. so swim knows how swiy feels. swiy will get through this if swiy really wants to.

[cashflow]

I believe that you can usesubstances without becoming addicted, it's all in your mind, can't think of any other way to put it. I personally believe the ones who have come to addiction and cant stop are weak minded. Sure there may be chemical imbalances but it's your body, you are controling it, a drug that is no longer or close to no longer in your system isn't making your descisions, you are. Swim experiments with different substances frequently and understands why someone may become addicted but doesn't unerstand how they "can't" stop. If you really don't have that much willpower yourself, instead of looking online to find out how to rid yourself of an addiction tell someone you know that cares for you(if theres none left, befriend someone) have them make sure you don't use. Stay away from the crowd that uses, donate your drug money so you have nothing to buy it with and if it comes down to it, have someone lock you in a room and feed you for a while until you come to your senses.

So basically swim manages so it is possible, whether you want to call swim an addict or not is up to you however swim does not fit the definition of an addict and can stop whenever/whatever and has done this successfully for many substances.

If you have trouble managing instead of abolishing, try to spread out the consumption. Ex. instead of tweaking a full week then stopping for a few months, tweek on the weekend like once a month, that way you won't become as reliant on it.

[Heavy_Z]

SWIM has found that his personality is absolutely addictive. SWIM has never felt addicted to a drug other than Meth, but I kicked that habit. SWIM views drugs as nothing more than a tool. Just like a chainsaw, drugs can help you or they can kill you. Its up to you to treat them and yourself with respect. SWIM views the "once an addict always an addict" mentality as weakness. SWIM sees it as a last alternative if you cannot get control of your life any other way. That said it is perfectly acceptable to go that route if you must. SWIM finds it to be an absolute surrender of control where one hides from there problems rather than face them.

SWIMs approach to drug use is to manage it. If SWIM finds himself using something to the point where the substance is having a detrimental effect on SWIMs wellbeing then SWIM will quit using that drug for awhile. This is mainly to get rid of tolerance and reassess SWIMS goals and current condition. The only drug SWIM has outright walked away from is Meth, but SWIM could use it again without being an addict again. Its just SWIM sees little point in using Meth if SWIM is not going to use it in large amounts. SWIM sees it as a useless drug in small amounts.

[Fight Club]

cashflow,

Spoken like a true . . . 18 year old. Check in with me in 25 years and let me know how that's workin' out for ya.

FC

[JaWill88]

Fight Club,


AGREED... lol. swim is only 19 but still swim totally understands that was quite rediculous. swim did feel that way when he was like 14 though. that was when swim was fairly new to drugs, swicashflow probably hasn't been using for very long. btw swim not trying to offend CF.

[machine_elf]

Originally Posted by JaWill88

swim completely 100% agrees that addiction at any level no matter how bad, is basically an obsessive compulsive disorder. one just has to learn other ways of life.

How can you possibly say this? SWIM has OCD and has never had problems with drug addiction. I also find that this thread has been over simplified. Drug addiction stems from many factors including mental instability, social injustice and genetic predisposition (with regards to prominant neurotransmitters in the users brain). Simply passing it off (and ocd for that matter) as an avoidable habit is naive and massively incorrect.

[Nucking Futs]

I found this and wondered what you guys think. Personally I think if someone has an adiction to anything and they over come it it's best to not go near it again. That said some people can so it's a horses for courses kind of deal !

Great debate asks abstinence above all?
The question of whether abstinence –
from both illegal drugs and substitute
medications – should be seen as the
‘gold standard’ treatment goal, or
whether this threatens the gains
brought about through harm
reduction is at the centre of a series of
events organised by a coalition of
substance misuse organisations
including DrugScope and the
Conference Consortium.
The three half-day events in April,
nicknamed the ‘great debate’, are
designed to give those in the field the
opportunity to discuss the issues
sparked by the BBC’s challenging of
the NTA over the abstinence record of
English treatment services (DDN, 22
October 2007, page 4) and similar
controversies in Scotland. The issues
were examined depth in ‘The New
Abstentionists’, Mike Ashton’s
supplement in the latest XXXXXXXX
magazine
‘Many believe it’s best if people can
manage without drugs,’ said Paddy
Costall of Conference Consortium, ‘but
there is also the risk of losing the harm
reduction gains which have made us
the envy of other countries.’ Harry
Shapiro of DrugScope said the
organisations had ‘taken this
unprecedented initiative because we
think the debate is a critical one. We
want to make sure it is based on the
best evidence and thinking we can find.’
Events are being held in Edinburgh
on 3 April, Manchester on 10 April and
London on 16 April. To register visit
http: www..org



What are your thoughts ?

[asaru969]

SWIM only comment on this subject is if someone is successful in quiting a drug or many drugs that THEY SHOULD NEVER TAKE THEM AGAIN..or they will end up right back to square 1...its a set up for failure in SWIMs opinon...SWIM use to think yeah if SWIM uses in moderation or the doctor prescribed them then its o.k..HELL NO...DEAD WRONG..this has lead millons into the misery and shame of relapse...all SWIM can really say is come on people think..

[Nucking Futs]

Hi asaru969,

I can only partially agree with you there. I will gave an example. A (preson) does a drug (you can choose because all drugs can have a psycological addiction) for a long time with no negative effects. Then an event or series of events leads to A using more and more of drug A to "help him through" to such an extent that A now has a problew with said drug.
After a period of time A seeks help from the local rehab clinic and kicks the drug and then sorts out the roots of As problems. As life returns to a "good state" and A starts to use the drug again living happily because there are no futher complications.
This issue depends greatly on the person involved and circumstances. IMO to say that a addict should never go near there vice EVER EVER EVER again is a bit of a draconian point of view.

Regards,

ME.

[samuraigecko]

asaru969,

SWIM is an opiate addict. SWIM loves his opiates. SWIM doesn't relapse, SWIM chooses when to start again. Purely his choice.
SWIM has successfully been able to clean himself up each year for a certain amount of time (anywhere from 3 to 6 months at a time) for over 20 years.
He cleans himself up out of choice, and does it EVERY year.
If someone cleans up from drugs and wants to STAY clean then yes SWIM agrees that they should never take that drug again.
However . . . If some like their opiates the way SWIM does then it IS within themselves to act responsibly and make good decisions. SWIM is able to hold a great job that pays well. SWIM is able to hold good conversations with meaning. Yet SWIM is still an addict and will continue to be until the day he dies because he chooses to.

If SWIM were to get to the point where he thought to himself "I no longer want to do opiates at all, I'm over it" then he is quite capable of staying opiate free forever if he chooses too.

It is about willpower and viewpoint.

Here is SWIMs viewpoint: -
IF one is to let some little chemical RULE their life then they are not a strong person.
Ones life belongs to ONE.
ONE is responsible for ONES OWN SELF and ONES OWN ACTIONS.
ONE is in control of his OWN body completely.
One is NOT going to let some little chemical dictate his feelings or emotions.

BUT . . most importantly off all, ONE IS NOT going to blame some small little chemical FOR ANY OF HIS OWN ACTIONS. The chemical is not to blame, the person is. The chemical is nothing more than a scape goat which some people hide behind because they refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

If the little chemical wins, then the person has lost everything to something rather small and insignificant.
SWIM refuses to let the little chemical win.

Some people can do this and some people cannot. ALL people COULD do it if they developed the right mental tools to do so, especially if they had someone whom has "been there done that" to mentor them.

On the topic subject of "give addicts a little or not at all" . . .
thats a hard one to answer. no methadone / suboxone programs would eventuate in elevated crime rates because of addicts whom are uneducated in the above mentioned life tools.

SWIM himself uses opiates to help himself taper off every year. He does this in spite of having a legitimate reason for the opiates (some of which are even prescribed to SWIM for this legitimate reason)

Hope this has helped
Just ones opinion.

Reputation Comments on this post:

You know what your talking about more than most

[asaru969]

O.K. so SWIM wants to get this straight SWIY thinks its fine for a subtance abuser whom have kicked the miserable habit and lifestyle of addiction,,started to get their life togather,,then use their drug of choice again..and "possibly" live happily everafter continuing in moderation after a certain period of time...SWIM strongly disagrees with his...knowing its no question of willpower its like playing russian rollet with ones own health,body and soul...its seems people really have that strong of a desire to continue to use these drugs when in fact the drug is using them...SWIM doesn't want to sound like hes pearching but having battled addiction for 12 yrs..SWIM has seen this exact thought process of its o.k..my life is great SWIM can just do alittle ruin 100's of lives...some of whom had the strongest willpower and selfdirection SWIM has ever known...

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by asaru969

O.K. so SWIM wants to get this straight SWIY thinks its fine for a subtance abuser whom have kicked the miserable habit and lifestyle of addiction,,started to get their life togather,,then use their drug of choice again..and "possibly" live happily everafter continuing in moderation after a certain period of time...

No not at all. SWIM thinks that if a person makes a personal choice to do so AND has the capacity to remain in control then it can be acceptable. As SWIM said, he has been an addict for 20 years but in reality only for 10 or 15 because he CHOOSES to take about 3 to 6 months off every year. If he decided to stop completely he has no doubts that he could just keep going with his sobriety even after those initial 6 months have gone by.

Originally Posted by asaru969

SWIM strongly disagrees with this...

that is fine, it is SWIyour RIGHT to disagree. An opinion is, after all, just an opinion.

Originally Posted by asaru969

knowing its no question of willpower

SWIM has proven it to be a question of will power at least within himself. Others may not have this will power but SWIM certainly believes that ALL people have the CAPACITY to have this will power if they choose and if they find the right life tools.

Originally Posted by asaru969

its like playing russian roulette with ones own health,body and soul...

agreed. it IS like playing russian roulette with ones soul.
One is not disagreeing that opiates are an evil drug when used in an abusive manner. However, with some of those life tools of which one spoke SWIyou can certainly lessen the chances and even nullify the chances if one is able to remain strong.

Originally Posted by asaru969

its seems people really have that strong of a desire to continue to use these drugs when in fact the drug is using them...

Entirely agreed again, SWIM has seen some HORRIBLE things done in the name of addiction. Babies dying because their mothers have forgotten to feed them, children whom should be in bed are out running the streets cos mom and dad are at home on the couch nodding, people killing and stealing just for that "one last fix".

Originally Posted by asaru969

SWIM doesn't want to sound like hes pearching but having battled addiction for 12 yrs..SWIM has seen this exact thought process of its o.k..my life is great SWIM can just do alittle ruin 100's of lives...some of whom had the strongest willpower and selfdirection SWIM has ever known...

Partially agreed again. Except for the part about ruining 100's of lives. Yes it is true that an addict will hurt the ones they love in most cases. Stealing from them, destroying the trust from them and even in some cases abandoning them all together. And a fair number of these addicts think they have it "all under control" and cannot be told otherwise. SWIM has seen this for a good 20 years, REALLY seen it for what it was, and chose within himself not to be like that. SWIM has a great relationship with his family. SWIM has never stolen of cheated or hurt a family member or anyone else for that matter just to get the next fix. SWIM keeps his opiate use away from his family, in fact very few of them know at all and would be shocked to hear it. And it would probably worry and hurt them if they did find out which is only natural for an opiate users family to do. However SWIM has maintained a great job and is paid well, SWIM has developed good life skills to help him with most situations. SWIM has remained very quiet and low key all of his life. In fact if someone said to SWIMs family "hey did you know that your son/brother/uncle/cousin is a junkie?" most of them would probably laugh it off because SWIM is just not the Atypical junkie type. He IS an addict however and he has been known to have small mood swings, but SWIM usually catches that and sees it for what it is BEFORE it gets out of hand. So much to the point that if someone went to my brother and said "your bro is a dope fiend" he would probably punch them in the nose and tell them not to lie to him. THATS how low key it is, even though it is heavy use.

In conclusion. IF one is smart and if one has the will power and the life tools to KNOW what to expect from opiate addiction one can lead a relatively "hassle free" life and keep the trust and love of their family.

This is not to say all people can do this. SWIM agrees that the majority of users end up being the Atypical junkie types. But even these "junkies" have the capacity to learn, its just that most of them have given up hope and do not WANT to learn.

hope this has been of insight peace.

[Dickon]

I came across this going through old threads. I wondered if any current DFers have any thoughts. The question intrigues me, and I don't have a clear answer to it.

Dickon

[chillinwill]

Red Rock thinks for some, drug use can be controlled. Whether it be their drug of choice, or an entirely different drug, some people just have it in them to control their using after addiction. Red Rock believes that very few will be able to control their drug of choice after addiction. However, some people like him have been able to use other drugs sparingly since joining active recovery (psychedelics, marijuana, alcohol (had one little short bout of addictive tendencies with this so he had to stop)) but he does believe some people can use a substance after addiction.

[ex-junkie]

well swim isnt about to try and find out if she can control drug use. after spending 7 years trying to quit opiates, shes not willing to take the risk on spending another 7 years with such a cack lifestyle.

:/

[Spucky]

My Cat thinks: "Yes, it is possible"!
But the Brain behind my noisy Cat thinks
"Only when living in a Drug-Free Neighborhood"!

She likes to fly to South- or South-East Asia and doing Research,
she likes to go "Banana" for a few Days but after a short while she have to leave
for her clean Japanese-Suburbia!

If She goes back to her Hometown (not the Place where Swim is located now)
she will be inside of her Snailhouse again!

This means: In Reality there is no Fun with highly addicted Drugs if you have been
once inside of the Chain, at least not for my Cat`s Brain!