Culture - UK News: Experts call for a softer line on killer drug ecstasy

[Pondlife]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...asy/article.do

Experts call for a softer line on killer drug ecstasy
29.11.07

The killer drug ecstasy could be downgraded to Class B within months - forcing the courts to take a softer line against dealers and users.

A panel of Government experts has been quietly discussing the hugely controversial move for more than a year.

Senior members of the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs want the drug to be downgraded from Class A to B when they pass their verdict next summer.

The revelation risks plunging the Government into a damaging drugs row.

An outcry over the downgrading of cannabis from Class B to C has already prompted a re-think, with Gordon Brown determined to reverse the decision.

But opposition is now likely to open on a second front if ecstasy is downgraded to Class B at the same time as the policy on cannabis is being tightened.

The reclassification of ecstasy - which has killed more than 200 over 15 years - would severely reduce the penalties for taking and using it.

Possession would be cut from a maximum penalty of seven to five years, and dealing would be reduced from a possible life sentence to a maximum of 14 years.

Shadow Home Secretary David Davis said: "It would be outrageous if Gordon Brown, for all his tough talk, accepted any recommendations to declassify ecstasy.

"Ministers should be absolutely clear in warning about the dangers of drugs and classify appropriately.

"Any shirking of their responsibility will betray a whole generation of young people."

Opponents also include Des Delaney, whose 18-year-old daughter Siobhan died after taking a pill on a night out.

He said Home Office advisers were out of touch with reality, and one death from ecstasy was 'one too many'.

The Advisory Council, a Government panel reporting direct to the Home Secretary, has been considering the case for downgrading ecstasy behind closed doors.

Today it will go public with the idea at the first open meeting of the body, which is also reviewing the cannabis laws for Mr Brown.

Hugely influential voices on the committee want ecstasy downgrading, including the Government's main scientific adviser on drugs.

Professor David Nutt argues that ecstasy's presence alongside other hard drugs such as heroin and crack is an 'anomaly'.

Sources said the council decided to review ecstasy's status after a report by Parliament's Science and Technology Committee suggested it caused less harm than other class A drugs.

But separate studies have warned of a long-term danger to users, in addition to the short-term risks of dehydration or the body over-heating.

After today's open session the committee will spend six months compiling a report for the Home Secretary.

Jacqui Smith must then take the politically difficult final decision over whether to accept the drug should be downgraded.

A Home Office spokesman said: "We will consider the Advisory Council's advice carefully, as we do for any advice it provides.

"However, the Government has no intention of reclassifying ecstasy."

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for sharing.

[Lettish]

Very interesting.

See the chart at the bottom of this page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5230006.stm (see how low E is compared to other Class A drugs?)

[MrG]

Originally Posted by pondlife

Experts call for a softer line on killer drug ecstasy

The title of that piece says it all really doesn't it?

It was never going to be an impartial, objective bit of journalism now was it?

[Euphoric]

The re-classification of ecstasy - which has killed more then 200 over 15 years

That is entirely unacceptable. That is much much too risky for anyone EVER to be able to try it. 200 people over 15 years... out of how many millions of doses taken in 15 years? Clearly the risk is too high. Automobiles, alcohol, peanuts and tobacco must be outlawed immediately.

[Coconut]

If you ask me we should also ban water due to several deaths as a result of hyperhydration.

[Pondlife]

Originally Posted by c0c0nut

If you ask me we should also ban water due to several deaths as a result of hyperhydration.

It would be interesting to see the numbers broken down into the various different causes, e.g:

• MDMA
• Some nasty RC sold as "E"
• Hyperhydration

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Euphoric

That is entirely unacceptable. That is much much too risky for anyone EVER to be able to try it. 200 people over 15 years... out of how many millions of doses taken in 15 years? Clearly the risk is too high. Automobiles, alcohol, peanuts and tobacco must be outlawed immediately.

500,000 people in the UK use it every year, resulting in between 20 and 40 deaths a year. For the same number of tobacco users 3,000 will die this year, and 12,000 will be hospitalised. All of this is old news really - if you look at the actual committee in question, the same questions were raised in March 2007, to which that insufferable fool Vernon Coaker said exactly the same thing "We have no intention of reclassifying ecstasy".

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for giving the numbers.

[paau]

that would make swim's life so much easier
fingers crossed

[dirk]

Originally Posted by c0c0nut

If you ask me we should also ban water due to several deaths as a result of hyperhydration.

here's a piece from "knowsley online" regarding some of the details of the inquest of the girl who was mentioned in the original post

February 23, 2006
Ecstasy death of promising Kirkby teenager
A coroner recorded a verdict of "death by misadventure" after the death of a Kirkby girl from one-and-a-half ecstasy pills.

Siobhan Delaney, a student at Knowsley Community College, died last August after taking the pills in the G-Bar, off Dale Street in Liverpool.

Miss Delaney, 18, took the pills after buying two for just £10. She danced until 5am, drinking "copious amounts of water". When she vomited, however, she was taken to her home in Northwood, Kirkby, by boyfriend David Ellison.

She was transported by ambulance to Fazakerley Hospital later that morning, where she fell into a coma and died soon afterwards on 7 August.

Siobhan was a gifted student, and was awaiting results for Drama and English from Roby College. Her ambition was to train as a drama teacher. She was unaware that she had already been accepted to university.

Earlier this week, a coroner found she had experienced a toxic reaction to the ecstasy, "an extremely rare condition" similar to that of Leah Betts.

Although the time-delay in receiving treatment contributed to her deterioration, the coroner determined hospital staff were not to blame.

"She was the quietest girl," said mum Pat Delaney, 52. "She was an exceptional teenager."


http://aboutknowsley.typepad.com/new...y_death_o.html

some differences stand out;

"Siobhan died after taking a pill on a night out" (the report above indicates two pills)

and other information not mentioned

"drinking "copious amounts of water"

"time-delay in receiving treatment"

"similar to that of Leah Betts."

[Lettish]

My friend has heard about five different versions of the Leah Betts story. My friend leans towards to the hyperhydration story.

[Nose Dive]

When journalists write like that I feel disgusted. Indeed, maybe we should make World Of Warcraft illegal because people are getting addicted to it? We should also ban anything that can cause a fire, anything with a pointy edge or corners, electricity is dangerous (that’s got to go) baths (what if someone drowns?). opening windows, cooking, washing (what if you slip?), books (paper cuts are on the rise?), light bulbs as they get very hot.

I could go on but you catch my drift. When will they understand that to remove something from peoples grasp because it CAN be dangerous will only breed ignorance and fear.

[naatural]

340 americans died from drowning in the bathtub in the year 2000 so i don't see how 200 people over 20 years is meant to be shocking...

[jamie_128]

right swim needs help

swim has done pills on 2 occasions, so swim knows, or thinks he knows that he is not allergic to extasy like some people are, eg this daughter, also swim is with friends who watch how much he drinks and never drinks more than 500ml water during heavy dancing

so what is swims rick of dying from taking a pill, is it dramatically lowereD?

do most people die because of an allergic reaction? these 20 people a year - how many actually die after taking ONE pill , out of that 20, and what is the main cause of death?

technically is it going to be something like 5 deaths a year out of 20 just from getting a pill with something nasty in? even if they take just one pill?

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by jamie_128

right swim needs help

swim has done pills on 2 occasions, so swim knows, or thinks he knows that he is not allergic to extasy like some people are, eg this daughter, also swim is with friends who watch how much he drinks and never drinks more than 500ml water during heavy dancing

so what is swims rick of dying from taking a pill, is it dramatically lowereD?

do most people die because of an allergic reaction? these 20 people a year - how many actually die after taking ONE pill , out of that 20, and what is the main cause of death?

technically is it going to be something like 5 deaths a year out of 20 just from getting a pill with something nasty in? even if they take just one pill?

1) It is still argued whether or not there is such a thing as an allergic reaction to ecstasy. The last study I saw found no such reaction.

2) Not just drinking too much but drinking too little can also be a problem, make sure you drink about a pint an hour if you are dancing in a hot environment, but no more than that. Abstention from alcohol may help.

3) The risk of dying from the consumption of a single pill is almost statistically insignificant. An estimated 500,000 use ecstasy every single year in the UK, most of those using it more than once during that year, and the death rate is never recorded as higher that 40 a year, including overdoses (deliberate or otherwise) and hyper-hydration or de-hydration.

4) In both of the cases given no allergic reaction as such was detected, certainly not conclusively. There is strong evidence to suggest that too much or too little water was drunk, resulting in death by water rather than by ecstasy.

5) Most dealers are not stupid or short-sighted enough to mix in a fatally toxic adulterant at that dose with their batch as it loses them customers both through death and bad publicity, both within the underworld and in the press. If a batch of bad pills were deliberately made it would be nothing short of an atrocity of the sort terrorists usually perpetrate, similar to poisoning a water supply. If you are considering greatly irregular use, such as once every three months or less then you are unlikely to suffer serious problems from adulterants unless you are unlucky enough to double drop something like PMA; considering your location this is not impossible as there were a string of PMA related problems in Australia, but most of that has left the market, or so I have been told. Drug takers are not, whatever people try and say, stupid. If there was a high chance it would kill them from a single dose, they wouldn't bother. All you get in the press is the occasional stupid little girl who didn't think to find out what she was doing before she dropped, or to take precautions like drinking correctly. There is a very good case that could be mounted saying that under legalisation this would not have happened due to safety instructions and set purity, as well as the ability to prevent sale to minors.

[jamie_128]

Originally Posted by FuBai

1) It is still argued whether or not there is such a thing as an allergic reaction to ecstasy. The last study I saw found no such reaction.

2) Not just drinking too much but drinking too little can also be a problem, make sure you drink about a pint an hour if you are dancing in a hot environment, but no more than that. Abstention from alcohol may help.

3) The risk of dying from the consumption of a single pill is almost statistically insignificant. An estimated 500,000 use ecstasy every single year in the UK, most of those using it more than once during that year, and the death rate is never recorded as higher that 40 a year, including overdoses (deliberate or otherwise) and hyper-hydration or de-hydration.

4) In both of the cases given no allergic reaction as such was detected, certainly not conclusively. There is strong evidence to suggest that too much or too little water was drunk, resulting in death by water rather than by ecstasy.

5) Most dealers are not stupid or short-sighted enough to mix in a fatally toxic adulterant at that dose with their batch as it loses them customers both through death and bad publicity, both within the underworld and in the press. If a batch of bad pills were deliberately made it would be nothing short of an atrocity of the sort terrorists usually perpetrate, similar to poisoning a water supply. If you are considering greatly irregular use, such as once every three months or less then you are unlikely to suffer serious problems from adulterants unless you are unlucky enough to double drop something like PMA; considering your location this is not impossible as there were a string of PMA related problems in Australia, but most of that has left the market, or so I have been told. Drug takers are not, whatever people try and say, stupid. If there was a high chance it would kill them from a single dose, they wouldn't bother. All you get in the press is the occasional stupid little girl who didn't think to find out what she was doing before she dropped, or to take precautions like drinking correctly. There is a very good case that could be mounted saying that under legalisation this would not have happened due to safety instructions and set purity, as well as the ability to prevent sale to minors.

so if a dealer tries not to put bad stuff in that causes death
why do a lot of pills have pma in?

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by jamie_128

so if a dealer tries not to put bad stuff in that causes death
why do a lot of pills have pma in?

PMA is a seemingly reasonable facsimile for replacing MDMA (if you are an unscrupulous dealer that is), major episodes resulting in bodily harm or even death tend to result from people taking an excessive number of pills when the first ones don't kick in, as PMA has an extended onset time. The people who adulterate pills with PMA probably figured it wasn't too toxic relative to MDMA, but when pills didn't kick in and people started taking higher doses the consequences increased immensely.

PMA, while not a cup of tea, isn't so toxic that it guarantees physical damage. The deaths and hospitalizations that arose from its consumption were due to large quantities ingested due to the circumstances mentioned above. At least thats how swim understood it when he researched it, though he hasn't heard much about PMA in some time (perhaps it is less used now that the risks are more apparent) and never encountered it so he didn't do too extensive an investigation.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thank you for clarifying.

[naatural]

ye i think most deaths are from either

-people forget to drink any water, or drink a beer instead of any water whilst dancing all night

-people think they have weak pills after not coming up after 20seconds and so take more and more and more...
someone one of my friends knows bought 3 pills from a stranger in a club; he took 1, didn't feel any effects after 10 minutes only and decided to take the other 2. that kind of stupid behaviour is what can get people killed