Opinions - Does the Perfect Sleeping Pill Exist?

[ima-do-proprio-ser]

non-addictive
potent
fast
small number of colateral effects



thanks

[Frangossy]

Well i don't know about perfect but Diazepan are very nice and relaxing.

SWIM takes Amitriptyline 25mg 1 tablet an hour b4 SWIM goes to sleep.

The effects are when you fall asleep are a good 12 hours and will more than like be very moody for the first hour of being awake.

The side effects are drowsiness and thats what makes you fall asleep.

at time from taking them SWIM has felt drunk off them balance is everywhere and can feel quite doped up but not a bad feeling.

[trptamene]

It does not exist to my knowledge...pharmaceutical companies that make drugs like ambien have that goal in mind though I am sure.

[penta]

The only sleeping pills that swim has used that are not addictive were over the counter ones such as benadryl, but benadryl really isn't a potent sleeping pill. In fact, swim seems to get adverse effects after taking benadryl for long periods of time (staying up later, feeling restless). The only sleeping pill that swim knows of that won't cause addiction is either seroquel or trazodone. However, if swiy decides to try these out, swiy will most likely feel very groggy in the morning for the first few days of using them.

[Laudaphun]

I've not tried it, however my psychiatrist recommends melatonin to every person I've ever heard ask for a sleepinging pill. He says to get the 3mg pills as the lesser mg pills are not so worthwhile. He is pro-stimulant, anti-opiate, somewhere in-between on the topic of benzos, and for sleep he is melatonin all the way. Perhaps I will try it someday.

I think trazadone is one of the worst sleeping aids as it has first prescribed to me(by a different dr.) at a 150mg dosage at night for sleep. This caused severe palpitations everytime, along with anxiety attacks... needless to say I did not try it very many times.

The first time it was administered to SWIM, she was in a detox/rehab facility and really thought she was going to die. She was also given a 150mg dose. The worst part about it was, the nurses thought SWIM was just "drug-seeking" and would not help. It was a horrid panic attack for SWIM, while she was in the hospitol. Several years later, SWIM was prescribed 50mg trazadone for sleep and it made her nose so stuffy that it actually kept her up as she couldn't breath through her nose...

[juanathan]

i used to have a problem with falling asleep. i've never been prescribed sleeping pills so take that into account... but i found that just exercising and exhausting all my energy and then some, and then going home and eating dinner, by the time i'm ready for bed it's all Z's til morning

[tehkold]

I don't think there is an end-all sleep-aid. Diphenhydramine or Doxylamine are available OTC and pretty effective, but they can leave you feeling a bit hazy the next day. SWIM has tried benzo's in the past. Valium's long half is definitely a bitch, so he prefer a fairly low dose of Klonapin or Librium. But benzo and barbiturate addiction and tolerance are major set backs, so my physician started me on Ambien CR. I try to limit myself to two doses a week, usually just to get my sleep cycle back on track after a long weekend. I haven't really felt any of the side effects. I just have to make sure I can get my eight hours in and I wake up feeling fantastic. On nights when I'm feeling just a bit restless I'll have two or three beers or glasses of wine just before bed, sometimes a shot or two of liquor (this happens maybe once every couple weeks). Bear in mind I've never been much of a drinker. This way I don't develop a tolerance or dependence to the Ambien.

Oh, I also tried Kava Kava for a while.
But, you know, I like my liver.

[BagelBiteZ]

swim is perscribed valium and trasidone for sleeping problems they work pretty well but swim also recommends ambien if swiyou doesnt want to become dependant

[Jatelka]

Zolpidem dependence and withdrawal is well recognised BagelBiteZ

[seekupdreamgirl]

SWIM thinks Remeron creates a second universe. SWIM had quite the experience with that antidepressant. Very, very intense IMHO.

[heroin_ed]

Restoril (temazepam) is pretty close to perfect. This is SWIMS personal opinion however.

[olechka]

Swim's sure the best pill is an exercise, specially swimming and diving, and sauna after. It worked pretty good with swim but now swim has no chance to use the gym and anxiety's back so swim's trying the pills, clonazepam works perfect but thinking about addiction... scary, swim's thinking about trying meditation. We all have to try to find a natural way to win our anxiety or we're be eating the pills all our life and they will make us miserable, for now all the existing pills are hazard.

[Benway]

'The quest for the Philophers stone'?

By it s very nature, a sleeper or an anxolytic are addictive by their very nature.

It is a DON Qixote quest.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by heroin_ed

Restoril (temazepam) is pretty close to perfect. This is SWIMS personal opinion however.

Agreed whole-heartedly, temazepam is in SWIM's case as well, as close to perfect as she can get. SWIM's opinion is that there is no such thing as "perfect", and what might be perfect for one person might horrid for another person. But, SWIM will agree in that, temazepam is the best sleeping pill she has come across... so long as it is used properly and it is used at most twice a week, three at absolute most. If SWIM uses temazepam in this manner, it is as close to perfect (in SWIM's case) as she can get. However, the biggest drawback is that it can be a very pleasureable benzo, but if you take it and go right to sleep you are less likely to notice this. Plus, after 2 or 3 days in a row it drastically loses it's sedative effects. It can also be quite addictive, so it depends on the person. Is it perfect? By no means. Is it the best sleeping pill for "SWIM"? Yes. It's pluses for SWIM are that it takes effect VERY quickly, and wears off before she wakes. SWIM get's no side-effects other than a nice calm, overall body relaxing effect which is quite nice after a long day. On the flipside, a better sleeping pill for SWIM to use on a more regular basis is an alprazolam bar (2mg). Not quite as sedating and seems to have a tendancy to last a little longer, so it is more likely to have a lingering effect or have effects still present in the morning... SWIM has taken quite large doses of temazepam and usually will still wake up in 8 hours or so, regardless of the dose... whereas, the higher the dose of alprazolam she takes, the longer she sleeps. But, if she sticks to the regular dose of 2mg, alprazolam will work pretty well each night, whereas temazepam will stop working after only a short period of time if taken on a daily basis. SWIM has also found that 1/2 a dose of temazepam with 1/2 dose of alprazolam is pretty effective in that the mixture retains it's sleep-inducing properties with the alprazolam added, and the smaller dose of alprazolam is less likely to have lingering effects.

Something rather odd SWIM has noticed... while neither alprazolam nor clonazepam have any real potent sedating properties in the case of SWIM... Alprazolam is more subtle when used as a sleeping aid than temazepam but it still works just fine. Clonazepam as well has only a slight if any sedating effect for SWIM on it's own, which is why she reserves them for daytime use. SWIM notices no significant sedating properties of either drug. But, when mixed it's like SWIM got him by a hammer and is out cold. Only tried that a few times, and might be some potential use as a heavy hitter, but SWIM is wary of using clonazepam for sleep purposes due to it's longer action of duration.

Originally Posted by olechka

Swim's sure the best pill is an exercise, specially swimming and diving, and sauna after. It worked pretty good with swim but now swim has no chance to use the gym and anxiety's back so swim's trying the pills, clonazepam works perfect but thinking about addiction... scary, swim's thinking about trying meditation. We all have to try to find a natural way to win our anxiety or we're be eating the pills all our life and they will make us miserable, for now all the existing pills are hazard.

Exercise is not a pill. While exercise is a terrific and natural way to help your body fall asleep naturally, it is not a pill. All existing pills are not a hazard, in fact they are a terrific help to many people who use them responsibly. They can be a hazard, but don't necessarily have to be. Yes, a natural way to address things such as anxiety and insomnia is great if you have the discipline to exercise regularly, eat properly, and get all you vitamins (SWIM is a big advocate of B vitamin supplements, or getting B vitamins via diet if you can manage). Unfortunately, not all of us are able to find a natural way to combat some things for which we need to take pills for whether do to physical, financial, or lack of knowledge reasons. SWIM has to very strongly disagree with the statement you made about

"find a natural way or else we will be eating pills all our lives and they will make us miserable"

... SWIM has been eating pills all her life and they did make her miserable when she used them irresponsibly, abused them, or just plain was prescribed the wrong ones. But, while they may not necessarily be the healthiest thing in the world, SWIM has never felt better in her life and is FAR from miserable, now that she has proper medications, takes them (for the most part) as prescribed, and has learned the difference between drug use and drug abuse. SWIM takes quite the variety of pills (all of which are dr. prescribed) and feels in tip top shape. Undiagnosed or untreated medical issues (psychological in SWIM's case) can lead to other problems. Diet and exercise is not always going to work for everyone, especially after they have had untreated psychological issues for years which lead to even more problems. Just look at any pharmacology text and the correlations between untreated ADHD/ADD and the development of anxiety issues, drug abuse, and a plethora of other problems. The key is to treat something before it cascades into other problems. In the beginning you might be able to treat these issues naturally, but if undiagnosed or untreated, it's gonna be really hard to find a natural way to deal with the multitude of disorders/problems that have developed over time. Also, while pills are great in these instances... take anxiety for example. If you need to take a pill, but don't want to have to rely on that pill the rest of your life, seek a therapist (a phd psychologist) to help. The pills can help you break the ice for a period of time, and the (phd psychologist, therapist, or even a counselor with a lesser degree) can help you work through the problems and deal with them without the pills. A multi-angle approach is always the best. Pills, counseling, natural means, ect. SWIM only made it a point of specifying a phd psychologist (not a psychiatrist) because she personally has found these people to be the most helpful to her personally.

While SWIM thinks it's great if you can overcome your struggles via natural means (diet, exercise, ect), and would advise doing so if that works for you. But, everyone has different lifestyles, careers, brain chemistry ect, so. Don't be afraid of the pills, if they make you feel better TAKE them. If they end up making you feel miserable, explore other options.

BTW, if you are using clonazepam and not using it on a regular basis, it's probably one of the least addictive/most effective ratio of any anxiety pill out there (again, in SWIM's case). SWIM has found chlordiazepoxide to be by far the least addictive, but not so effective and more side-effects. If you start taking them 3 times a day, everyday then you might have some dependancy issues, however sparingly you shouldn't have anything to worry about in terms of addiction. Clonazepam is the one benzo that SWIM can take and fell no effects from what so ever other than nullifying the anxiety... other than that, SWIM can't even tell she has taken anything.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Another very insightful and well written post: Thank you

[adzket]

probably not as a person who is not sleeping at all, or not very well. would shurly get adicted to any thing that made them go to sleep, as that is your goal and if the pill makes it happen you will get addicted to taking it even if it's only psycologicaly. not sleeping is not good for anyone and people should seek help though alot of doctors are unwilling to perscribe alot of things. natural things are best like lavender oil also there are some other essential oils which aid sleep though i cant think of them at the mo some are atualy quiet strong and can alow you to sleep within about 30mins for a good night 8 hrs plus

[Benway]

I believe the search for a restful nights sleep in a tablet or elixir is a futile exercise. We interupt a natural cycle laid down by millions of years.
If we have sleep problems as a society, then the cause is social: urban living, money worry, light filled nights and 24hr life.

I fully accept that there are individuals who need medical intervention due to afflications, internal or external.

With sleepers we must accept that we are interupting with very intricate neural chemico-electro systems that has developed since the dawn of thought. Who knows where our dreams can take us. My own use of sleepers left me in a dreamless void that has now come back to to haunt me with a perpetual nightmare sleep.
Who knows what alterations these formulations cause our neurology.
If we trust the press, then we are already developing a new generation with with bigger thumbs due to play-stations. What are these seemingly benign panaceas gonna do...

Im not saying dont use sleeping pills, hell no! Just remember to look before you leap, but your still gonna hit that ground sometime.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post!

[staples]

Originally Posted by adzket

probably not as a person who is not sleeping at all, or not very well. would shurly get adicted to any thing that made them go to sleep, as that is your goal and if the pill makes it happen you will get addicted to taking it even if it's only psycologicaly.

I wouldn't really call that an addiction so much as a basic need... I don't see the danger in using something (natural or not) to go to sleep if one cannot on his/her own. It's much healthier than the alternative.

Originally Posted by adzket

natural things are best like lavender oil also there are some other essential oils which aid sleep though i cant think of them at the mo some are atualy quiet strong and can alow you to sleep within about 30mins for a good night 8 hrs plus

I'd be very interested if you do recall some of these, and I think this thread would be the perfect place to post them if they work as well as you say. I've tried a few different things (kava kava, melatonin, l-trypophan formulations, etc etc even unnatural things like diphenhydramine) but haven't found much luck in non-prescription stuff before or after starting prescription treatment.

Originally Posted by Benway

If we trust the press, then we are already developing a new generation with with bigger thumbs due to play-stations.

Odd, that would certainly be a pat on the back for Nintendo: they've made something which alters our environment insofar as which traits are key to survival, then...

[UmmaGumma]

Exercise has proven to be invaluable as a sleep aid to me. I cannot exercise strenuously because the next morning I will wake up with a fibromyalgia flare-up and can barely get out of bed. Light exercise is not enough to tire me out enough to fall asleep. Sometimes exercise actually hypes me up and makes me restless as if I'm having a manic episode. I tried an exercise program for three months and finally tossed my hands up in despair and gave up.

Ambien CR caused me to have hallucinations, but the worst thing about the drug is that it also caused me to have suicidal ideation. Therefore, I discontinued taking it.

I believe the reason I have trouble sleeping is because the chemicals in my brain are all out of whack. To make matters worse, I've had a complete hysterectomy and am unable to take hormone replacement therapy. So now my hormones are also out of whack, making my problems even worse.

I cannot take antidepressants because of the horrible side effects. I take benzos occasionally but do not rely on them because of the tolerance/abuse aspect. However, I have managed to find the perfect combination that gives me that restorative sleep each night:

2 diphenhydramines (otc sleep aid), 2 Zanaflex (strong muscle relaxer), and 2 3mg. melatonin. Sometimes I only have to rely on a combination of any of the two (such as diphenhydramine and Zanaflex, or Zanaflex and melatonin, etc.) and it works just fine.

I have accepted that I am just one of those people who will have to take pills all of her life in order to get a good night's sleep. I don't mind because if I do not get enough sleep, I become consumed with pain all over my body (from the fibromyalgia) and I become extremely irritable. As you can imagine, I become quite intolerable to be around.

[lostmente]

sex has done me well a few times. bar that, controlled breathing....swim made up his own way of doing this but probably could find out a general way if swiy looks up holotropic breathing

lostmente added 2 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

really tho, best cure for difficult sleep is resolution of personal conflict.

Reputation Comments on this post:

"Resolution of personal conflict" - the profound alternative to a sleeping pill! I like it, and agree wholehea...

[adzket]

Originally Posted by staples

I wouldn't really call that an addiction so much as a basic need... I don't see the danger in using something (natural or not) to go to sleep if one cannot on his/her own. It's much healthier than the alternative.

I'd be very interested if you do recall some of these, and I think this thread would be the perfect place to post them if they work as well as you say. I've tried a few different things (kava kava, melatonin, l-trypophan formulations, etc etc even unnatural things like diphenhydramine) but haven't found much luck in non-prescription stuff before or after starting prescription treatment.

Odd, that would certainly be a pat on the back for Nintendo: they've made something which alters our environment insofar as which traits are key to survival, then...

i am away from home at the moment but i have many aromatheripy books at home which i will look at and find out they work best if masaged in to the skin
aswell as burnt. as it is something that intrests me as i am on many medications for sleep and my doctor will not send me to a sleep clinic all my medications say dont drive or operate machinery and i still dont sleep most nights in week. i will post the info soon as natural seams best also aparently if you feet are to hot this will not help and cold showers befor bed or semie hot bath will help relax you very well.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by lostmente

sex has done me well a few times. bar that, controlled breathing....swim made up his own way of doing this but probably could find out a general way if swiy looks up holotropic breathing

lostmente added 2 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

really tho, best cure for difficult sleep is resolution of personal conflict.

The diaphragmic-breathing (aka d-breathing) technique can prove to be quite useful in helping with difficulties in falling asleep. Not only that, but while anything in life worthwhile usually takes some time, practice, and patience (the d-breathing technique is no different), it can serve as a powerful mind over body discipline once you begin to master it... not only with falling asleep at night, but for reducing stress during the day.

It begins as a conscious effort to control one's breathing, taking long deep, slow inhales/exhales in effort to gradually reduce one's breathing rate. However, overtime as one practices it more and more (and bedtime is an ideal time to do so), it becomes less and less of a conscious effort, which then begins to show benefits not only during the evening, but throughout the day, lowering stress and tension. Keep in mind, that it does take some practice and while initially one might notice an ease in the ability of falling asleep, continued effort and practice can have significant positive overall benefits. I would encourage anyone willing to give it a chance to look it up and give it a shot. Even if sleep aids are still necessary, mastery of this technique can allow one to employ a powerful self-relaxation effect anytime. I believe there is a target breathing rate (range) that might seem quite low (not exactly sure of the number off the top of my head), but is very doable.

SWIM took a course in college called "Stress and Relaxation Techniques" where she was first introduced to this. Other self-hypnosis techniques are really pretty useful as well, such as picturing yourself in your "happy place" and gradually working on allowing your muscles to relax from head to toe. With practice one can actually lower their own body temperature, and as with other techniques, this can then be employed more easily, in more situations, with less conscious effort. Of course, to start off, one should practice in the most comfortable position/situation (such as at night while lying in bed), then progress to using it in other situations/places. These techniques do take practice, and complete mastery can take a long time, but really does pay off in the end. However, one can often experience benfits from only a week or so of practice... with increasing benefit occuring the longer and more often a person has worked on it.

With that being said, SWIM still does not deny the usefulness of sleep aids, as life-styles can be very demanding, deadlines, cross-time zone plane flights (jet-lag), or whatever the case may be. When a sleeping pill is necessary temazepam still is by far the most effective "sleeping-pill" SWIM has found. SWIM has used this medication for several years and in her case it allows sleep, rather than "making" her sleep. SWIM no longer gets any side-effects at all, and the effects usually wear off long before 8 hours... When SWIM first began taking it, the "habit-forming" properties were more pronounced, but over time SWIM has found herself using it less and less often and has never really had any dependance issues with it. SWIM limits usage to twice a week or so. It should be noted that this particular medication works very well for SWIM's marmoset and may not be best suited for everyone. One thing SWIM has found to be surprising is that the frequency of her use has declined over the course of the past 3 years of use, which even she finds surprising. Now she doesn't even use all of her refills in between dr. visits.

I guess SWIM's point is, if a person can find something that works well for them and become comfortable with, and use responsibly, then whatever pill that it happens to be is the perfect sleeping pill for them. This is obviously more going to be more difficult for some rather than others, and some for some people there might be no "perfect" sleeping-pill for them. As someone mentioned above, some herbal products such as kava can be useful, extracts of chamomile, different blends of herbal teas which can be purchased at a health food store, etc.

So to answer the question in the thread, SWIM would have to say that the perfect sleeping-pill does exist for some, while it may not for others. There is no one pill that is perfect for everyone.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent, insightful post

[adzket]

i am back home now, i will dig book's out tonight then post as much info as possible, as soon as possible after full reserch.

[Shwags]

MELATONIN, MELATONIN, MELATONIN!



ps. Melotonin

Reputation Comments on this post:

use at least 2 DIFFERENT words in a post

[Frost og Taake]

Many common sleeping pills are just only Diphenhydramine, which is the key ingredient in benedryl (sp?) This can cause many different things to occur which changes dramatically from person to person and dosage. I was reading and one claimed Amitriptyline would work well. SWIM has taken both in many levels and SWIM claimed both can work well...at times. Be carful, start small and SLOWLY increase. If you perfer groogy hallucinations, Diphenhydramine is your go, if you perfer happy and dizzy 125 of Amitriptyline worked well for SWIM, but check erowid.org for what you may think will be best for you.

[klonopinz]

Swiy definition of perfect excludes mostly all medication developed to treat sleeping disorders, since most can be (or are known to be) addictive. Also, "fast" would then immediately make the sublingual absorbed preparations of sedatives rank high on the list.

Anyway, Swim has found that there is no one perfect sleeping pill, but a combination of a few. Swim insuflates a mininal dose of either ativan, lorazapam, or alprazolam, to induce sleep and takes .5mg clonazepam to remain asleep.